More about Once Saved Always Saved..

[po18guy]

the thought occurs to me that it is even worse to sin AFTER one has accepted Christ than it is before… The consequences are more serious… Therefore, there is all the more need for purging (here and/or later in Purgatory) than ever… meaning: NO OSAS…

Comments?? What is your experience with this??

Judas. Handpicked by our Lord. Taught the faith. Given power of healing, preaching, casting out demons. The evil one was not in him, since a house cannot be divided against itself. Judas travelled with our Lord for three years and had a position of trust amongst the disciples. He was present at the Last supper.

What happened? I wonder if Judas was what scripture spoke of when the devil ceased his tempting of Jesus and left Him “until an opportune time” (Luke 4:13). Scripture clearly says that the devil entered into Judas just before the Passion. Thus, the evil one had an invitation, or found an open door in Judas.

Again, consider the eterenal future of theis disciple, who was with Christ constantly, but turned away and made a deal with the evil one:

Matthew 26:24 “The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”

Mark 14:21 “The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”

Luke 22:22 “The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him.”

Judas, at least through most of his ministry, was saved. Any Christian who was so blessed was bound for eternal glory. Yet, look at his fate.

OSAS is man-made, for self-gratification. It is a product of the ego, and leads only to arrogance.

Christ’s peace.

 

[cazayoux]

“answering for our own sins” will not provide for any cleansing of our sins. If our suffering in “purgatory” had any sin-removal effect, then that would make Jesus’ Sacrifice unnecessary.

To me, I see ‘the Day’ disclosing, by fire, each man’s work.

1 Cor 3:10-15
[10] According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.
[11] For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw –
[13] each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
[14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
[15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

What is your take on these passages?
What in the world (or outside of it) are they talking about?

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Paul spoke of the saved in Christ being raised, from “corruptible” to “incorruptible”, “in a moment, in the twinkling of the eye, at the last trump”. There is no time for that drawn out purging that some claim is necessary.

The question, “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” proves that all who die in Christ do not die in their sins. Paul explains that “The sting of death is sin;…”.
That means that there is no sin on a saved person’s soul at death.

In no way does the idea of a possible purging between earth and heaven negate the scripture you cite.
Having to face purgatory does not mean fearing (having the sting of) death or the grave.
If I would know for sure that I will go to Purgatory, then WOOO HOOOO … because that is the right direction (toward heaven).
Better to know I’m being purified (prepped) so that I can enter heaven than the other option.

Let’s look at more of 1 Cor 15.

[51] Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

‘sleep’ meaning ‘death’.
How are the sleeping ‘changed’.?

Nothing imperfect may enter heaven.
By your theology, we die and go straight to heaven (nothing in between).

So if we are in heaven and perfect, what does the scripture mean regarding us being ‘changed’.

michel

 

[distracted]

uhh, don’t think so. Try re-reading those without the Catholic twist or influence if you will.

yeah those Catholic sounding passages need to be taken out of the bible… just like those 7 books Luther took out…

In fact, now that i htink about it, i think i will just, from this day on, believe exactly what i want to believe and throw out anything i don’t… which, i realize, would entail throwing out the entire bible with all its talk of hellfire and the wrath of God…

Gee, thanks for the help… I am free at last… Thank God Almighty, free at last…

 

[distracted]

Another OSAS (& Sola Fide) - destroying scripture:

St. Matthew 16:27:

“For the son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.”

[emphasis added]

 

[distracted]

OSAS is man-made, for self-gratification. It is a product of the ego, and leads only to arrogance.

Christ’s peace.

So true… Good Post…

But something bothers me… What if Judas had repented? then Jesus wouldn’t have died on the cross?? Or would some other thing have happened or w hat??

Just wondering…

 

[distracted]

I could ask the same question about “purgatory”. There seems to be quite a bit of dogma about something on “the other side” that is not even mentioned in the Bible.

Is it not in the Bible because you have not found it there? You seem to put a lot of importance on your ability to interpret the bible (correctly)… but then, that is a result of the Deformation (Luther)… not your fault…

I do know that the Bible is clear about our “body of death” (Romans 7:24).
I also know that it is Jesus Christ our Lord that took care of that problem by Himself.
There would be no need for Jesus Christ’s one Sacrifice, if there was some other way that we could be purged of any of our sins by our own suffering.

so far, the Catholic Church would agree… The thing is, Christ’s sacrifice is not adequately applied by most people in this life… So God lets them finish working out their salvation with fear & trembling in Purgatory…

It mocks His perfect Sacrifice to say more payment is needed later.

your choice of words makes an implication that is not there - in true Catholic teachings… In other words, Catholics do not believe that something more than Christ’s sacrifice needs to be done to open the doors of Heaven for humans… The Catholic Church teaches that we must open our hearts and minds and souls to that sacrifice… & let His sacrifice cleanse us… purge us of our anti-Christ tendencies (as it were). for example, i have fallen in love with Jesus and am committed to him… yet there is this part of me that wants “other” stuff, stuff that is contrary to him and pushes him away… in my heart… and so, through my wilfulness, i distance myself from him, though most of the time, i distance myself from him without fully realizing that i am even doing so… well… if you take a wrong turn on the highway in your car… but don’t realize it… you may end up 50 miles in the opposite direction of where you intended to go… You can cry and whine and moan about being so far from your destination, but that doesn’t change the fact that you are far from where you wanted (and needed) to be…

 

[distracted]

Scripture that refutes Sola Fide (faith alone, without works):

Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what must i do to gain eternal life?” He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good**. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments**. He asked him, “which ones?” and Jesus replied, " 'You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery… [He lists the Commandments].” The young man said to him, "All of these i have observed. Waht do i still lack? Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to [the] poor, and you will have treasure in Heaven. St. Matthew 19:16 [emphasis added]
Jesus did not say, “Have faith in me” or “make Me your personal savior.” He spoke of actions…

 

[brkn1]

In no way does the idea of a possible purging between earth and heaven negate the scripture you cite.
Having to face purgatory does not mean fearing (having the sting of) death or the grave.
If I would know for sure that I will go to Purgatory, then WOOO HOOOO … because that is the right direction (toward heaven).
Better to know I’m being purified (prepped) so that I can enter heaven than the other option.

Let’s look at more of 1 Cor 15.

[51] Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

‘sleep’ meaning ‘death’.
How are the sleeping ‘changed’.?

Nothing imperfect may enter heaven.
By your theology, we die and go straight to heaven (nothing in between).

So if we are in heaven and perfect, what does the scripture mean regarding us being ‘changed’.

michel

We do not do the changing after death. God does all of that. The new perfect spiritual nature that we were given, when we were regenerated from above, will have complete control. There will no longer be the sin-nature in us that all inherited from the first Adam. There will be nothing that needs purging. Christ did all the purging when He took our sins in His own body on the tree (cross). See (1Peter 2:24). Jesus did it all.

Yes, we go straight to heaven to be with our Lord forever, if we die in Christ.
The physical body of sin that dies does not follow us. A glorified incorruptible physical body will also unite with our soul at the later resurrection. It will happen at the same time if we are alive when Jesus returns for His sheep.

 

[distracted]

Yes, we go straight to heaven to be with our Lord forever, if we die in Christ.
The physical body of sin that dies does not follow us. A glorified incorruptible physical body will also unite with our soul at the later resurrection. It will happen at the same time if we are alive when Jesus returns for His sheep.

you can believe waht you want… your choice…

don’t feel like typing it all again, but if you go to the Thread: “Protestants: Do you REALLY believe scripture?”

you will find scripture passages that refute sola fide… (though it is NOT an exhaustive list by a long shot). They also tend to support Purgatory (the fires thereof).

God bless…

 

[po18guy]

So true… Good Post…

But something bothers me… What if Judas had repented? then Jesus wouldn’t have died on the cross?? Or would some other thing have happened or w hat??

Just wondering…

Let’s keep His commandments, partake of Reconciliation on a regular basis, receive the Sacrament of Anointing when we’re in our last hours, then ask Christ ourselves.

 

[distracted]

Let’s keep His commandments, partake of Reconciliation on a regular basis, receive the Sacrament of Anointing when we’re in our last hours, then ask Christ ourselves.

Good idea…

That could apply to many questions we poor, ignorant humans have…

 

[Philthy]

There seems to be quite a bit of dogma about something on “the other side” that is not even mentioned in the Bible.

 

[sola_scriptura]

I agree that these things are not just coincidences.
When I look back on my life and my faith journey, I can see where God was involved.
I call these ‘signal graces’.
I don’t think God is puppeteering every moment of my life, though.
Does God really care if I drink Coke or Pepsi?

But like you said above in bold, the choices were still mine.
I don’t think God decided ahead of time that I would make the choice, though.

I can see in my life times when there was something I needed to do … or choose to do… and I didn’t … opportunity came again … and again before I followed what I knew was right and did it.
I think God brought to me the choice, not the decision.

michel

I agree – we do make choices on our own.

We know it is God who draws us to Him. Everything about our lives is a matter of grace. Beginning with our birth, then where we are born, our parentage, etc. However, it’s even more than that I believe.

Every little coincidence, every interaction, etc. This series of events followed by our reactions and series of choices are influenced by God. Our choices are not made by God, however, His eternal decree and providence arranged them. God knows how we will react because He knows us – foreknew us, His elect. He forms us as a potter forms His clay, He spiritually enabled us to recognize the truth, and ordered the universe so all the things that we might otherwise view as coincidence would happen.

Therefore, it’s no accident that we were born where we were born, and ultimately found Christ. It is by eternal decree. While God doesn’t make the choice for His elect – He narrows our choices so we ultimately will choose Him.

God has ordered things right down to the number of hairs on our head, the days we will spend on earth, all the good and bad we encounter, human history – everything!

God even knew Moses would beg Him to allow his brother to speak before the Hebrew people. In fact God formed Moses, ordered his life just as He orders ours. Moses was destined to make the wrong choice that day – as a lesson to us. However, Moses was no less saved, because he was under grace. He merely suffered the temporal punishment of not being able to step foot in the promised land, again, as a lesson to us. In the scheme of things it was nothing compared to the eternal state of glory Moses dwells in now.

 

[distracted]

I
God has ordered things right down to the number of hairs on our head, the days we will spend on earth, all the good and bad we encounter, human history – everything!

He even knew what kinds of sins we would be most likely to be tempted by…

However, he didn’t know how much time we would spend in Purgatory… That is up to us. We could offer up all our sufferings in expiation… attend daily Mass, say a 1000 rosaries… and voi la!! We may escape Purgatory (in the next world) entirely…

 

[sola_scriptura]

He even knew what kinds of sins we would be most likely to be tempted by…

However, he didn’t know how much time we would spend in Purgatory… That is up to us. We could offer up all our sufferings in expiation… attend daily Mass, say a 1000 rosaries… and voi la!! We may escape Purgatory (in the next world) entirely…

If God knows everything, assuming purgatory is true, then how could He not know the amount of time we will spend there?

I think even in theories that assume man has absolute free will – God is stilled viewed as omniscient (including an ability to see the future in an absolute sense).

Your view sounds like open view theology, which posits that God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge (which I strongly doubt the RCC would agree with). That is typically a very liberal protestant view, as far as I know anyway? Now you have me curious.

 

[Mickey]

So you think God doesn’t harden hearts? What about the Pharaoh, what about Joseph’s brothers

Sigh.

God does not force heart hardening on His people. Do you think they had no choice?

 

[po18guy]

He even knew what kinds of sins we would be most likely to be tempted by…

If the evil one knows our weaknesses and temptations, most certainly the Perfect Creator God knows this, right? Free will is where we erred in the garden, and it is where we err now.

Christ’s peace.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Sigh.

God does not force heart hardening on His people. Do you think they had no choice?

People always have a choice – however, at the same time they make the choices they are destined to make.

Do you think God planned all the events that led to Joseph becoming governor of Egypt, which is why the Hebrews went to Egypt in the first place and consequently why they needed God to aid their escape (later, under Moses)? Or do you think God rolled the dice and played the cards He was dealt?

Certainly the pharaoh was a son of the devil – in fact God rose him up to his position of power for just that reason. So that the pharaoh would lay chase to the Jews and God could make His power known. Indeed the pharaoh was a man with a hard heart; sons of the devil created for the day of evil can’t have a soft heart. However, even the pharaoh was a practical man. He might have capitulated before God wrought all the plagues on Egypt, therefore, God hardened his heart even more just for good measure. Whether God did this Himself or through secondary agents is a matter of question – but not whether God did these things (just read from the end of Genesis, beginning with the story of Joseph, through the first dozen or so chapters of Exodus, and you will see my account is exactly correct. Then turn to Romans 9 for a deeper explanation by Paul).

Blessings

 

[Mickey]

People always have a choice

Exactly!

however, at the same time they make the choices they are destined to make.

But God does not force them to make these choices.

Do you think God planned all the events that led to Joseph becoming governor of Egypt, which is why the Hebrews went to Egypt in the first place and consequently why they needed God to aid their escape (later, under Moses)?

God has foreknowledge but does not squash our free will.

Whether God did this Himself or through secondary agents is a matter of question

God has foreknowledge but does not squash free will.