More about Once Saved Always Saved..

  • Thread starter Thread starter distracted
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Mickey said:
Exactly! 👍

But God does not force them to make these choices. 😉
God has foreknowledge but does not squash our free will.

God has foreknowledge but does not squash free will.
Click to expand...
So do you think divine providence trails foreknowledge.

The Biblical presentation of divine providence does not match well with the philosophy of the sophists. Indeed it is exactly opposite to it.

Moses Maimonides (1135-1204) has set out the problem in the traditional manner:
Code: 
… "Does God know or does He not know that a certain individual will be good or bad? If thou sayest 'He knows', then it necessarily follows that [that] man is compelled to act as God knew beforehand he would act, otherwise God's knowledge would be imperfect. …"[1]
This debate has raged for centuries. People have been trying to reconcile the idea of free will and determinism for a long time, even before Aristotle and his epic hypothetical sea battle.

Calvin simply settled the question according to the word of God; and left the sophists to their humanist philosophy.

If God’s foreknowledge precedes His providence that would mean that God is trapped within His own foreknowledge. That is – He would never be free to act outside of what He already knows He will do. As Calvin said, this idea is absurd, and I fully agree.
 
SIA said:
Christ did it all. That in itself is the entire crux of Christianity.
Click to expand...
Right you are! However, are you saved even if you reject Christ? Are you saved by just blurting out “I believe”, without actually changing your heart? I mean, he did it all, right? Au contraire! You must do something regarding your relationship with Him, even if it appears to be a “good work” :bigyikes:

“Repent” “Go, and sin no more” “Keep my commands” “Deny yourself” “Take up your cross daily” “Then, follow me”. This is Christ’s teaching through His one church. We had best listen, and follow it.

“Follow me” is the last thing He commands. How often we shortcut the Lord and jump right to the final requirement without paying heed to the others.

Judas was saved. It does not appear that Judas* is* saved. OSAS is from the demon. It is a “different gospel”. It leads to complacency and drifting away form the true faith. What could possibly please the evil one more?
 
Man – I don’t agree with OSAS, but neither would I say “it’s from the demon”? A bit extreme don’t you think … :eek:
 
po18guy said:
Right you are! However, are you saved even if you reject Christ? Are you saved by just blurting out “I believe”, without actually changing your heart? I mean, he did it all, right? Au contraire! You must do something regarding your relationship with Him, even if it appears to be a “good work” :bigyikes:

“Repent” “Go, and sin no more” “Keep my commands” “Deny yourself” “Take up your cross daily” “Then, follow me”. This is Christ’s teaching through His one church. We had best listen, and follow it.

“Follow me” is the last thing He commands. How often we shortcut the Lord and jump right to the final requirement without paying heed to the others.

Judas was saved. It does not appear that Judas* is* saved. OSAS is from the demon. It is a “different gospel”. It leads to complacency and drifting away form the true faith. What could possibly please the evil one more?
Click to expand...
You will just never truly accept Christ will you. It’s as if he is found floundering inside this box called the Catholic church. This is so sad to be caught up in this.
 
Your faith is very weak because you don’t trust Christ, you try to control Christ by pleasing him with your menial works. This is what people do when they don’t get it or don’t read Scripture.
 
SIA said:
Your faith is very weak because you don’t trust Christ, you try to control Christ by pleasing him with your menial works. This is what people do when they don’t get it or don’t read Scripture.
Click to expand...
A little projection here regarding controlling what Christ means…

To illustrate, where does the Catholic Church officially teach what you have claimed?
 
SIA said:
You will just never truly accept Christ will you. It’s as if he is found floundering inside this box called the Catholic church. This is so sad to be caught up in this.
Click to expand...
You must be referring to the freedom to make up your own doctrine and choose what you want to believe about Scriptures… yep, can’t do that in the Catholic Church.

I have attended Catholic Churches for years, and it’s the place I can experience Christ most fully. He is truly and really with His Bride, the Church. The experience I’ve had in the Church with Christ present is truly amazing, and has made my life more truly rich than I could ever have imagined.
 
sola_scriptura said:
Man – I don’t agree with OSAS, but neither would I say “it’s from the demon”? A bit extreme don’t you think … :eek:
Click to expand...
I would say that Satan is fairly pleased with OSAS, as it is a partial victory for him. It is an improper interpretation of God’s Word that keeps people from really understanding and participating in the true Sacraments, and from doing what Christ asked.
 
MDK said:
I would say that Satan is fairly pleased with OSAS, as it is a partial victory for him. It is an improper interpretation of God’s Word that keeps people from really understanding and participating in the true Sacraments, and from doing what Christ asked.
Click to expand...
Can you explain the doctrine to me, or is it just the terminology that brings you to these conclusions?

I mean if you’ve studied the doctrine and read some the theological writings supporting it then I could see making such a dogmatic statement … but have you done that???

I’m no expert in it either, which is why I won’t make a statement about a doctrine simply because its title seems to offend the scriptures (there are many doctrines out there that are probably labeled poorly).

If I were to make a statement about it, from the little I know about it, yes I would agree the doctrine is dubious (more like made for TV Christianity). Beyond that I don’t know …

Blessings
 
MDK said:
You must be referring to the freedom to make up your own doctrine and choose what you want to believe about Scriptures… yep, can’t do that in the Catholic Church.

I have attended Catholic Churches for years, and it’s the place I can experience Christ most fully. He is truly and really with His Bride, the Church. The experience I’ve had in the Church with Christ present is truly amazing, and has made my life more truly rich than I could ever have imagined.
Click to expand...
I’m not so sure. I think Christianity broadly speaking (including Catholicism) has softened its message over the years. I don’t mean to say our message should not be a loving one; what I mean to say is, for instance, the RCC moved away from the harsher language of Augustine and have become more akin to Eastern Christianity and Methodism. Under the instance of modern Christianity that we all have unbridled free will – divine providence and predestination are becoming dusty old doctrines rarely discussed anymore? That’s how I see it anyway, hopefully I’m wrong.
 
SIA said:
Your faith is very weak because you don’t trust Christ, you try to control Christ by pleasing him with your menial works. This is what people do when they don’t get it or don’t read Scripture.
Click to expand...
With respect friend, this doesn’t sound like a statement made in love?
 
sola_scriptura said:
Man – I don’t agree with OSAS, but neither would I say “it’s from the demon”? A bit extreme don’t you think … :eek:
Click to expand...
Not really… if OSAS leads to a sin of presumption… and we know all sin is from the demon… well, what other conclusion is there?

.
 
SIA said:
Your faith is very weak because you don’t trust Christ, you try to control Christ by pleasing him with your menial works. This is what people do when they don’t get it or don’t read Scripture.
Click to expand...
Actually a weak faith is one that places more trust in the individual … “I am saved”… then in the ongoing graces coming from Christ.

Menial works?.. even our groans are prayers. And no “menial work” which is done for Christ is really menial.

But this is what people do when they self interpret Scripture.

Quite abusing the Catholic Bible… or your version of our Book.

.
 
sola_scriptura said:
Can you explain the doctrine to me, or is it just the terminology that brings you to these conclusions?

I mean if you’ve studied the doctrine and read some the theological writings supporting it then I could see making such a dogmatic statement … but have you done that???

I’m no expert in it either, which is why I won’t make a statement about a doctrine simply because its title seems to offend the scriptures (there are many doctrines out there that are probably labeled poorly).

If I were to make a statement about it, from the little I know about it, yes I would agree the doctrine is dubious (more like made for TV Christianity). Beyond that I don’t know …

Blessings
Click to expand...
A pre-requisite for something to be a doctrine should be that it is the Truth. Unfortunately, our separated brethren apply the word doctrine to some of their beliefs that simply are not the Truth.

OSAS is not true when it understood to mean or include that one can have no fear of falling back into un-righteousness.

.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top