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TexanKnight
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Be Blessed
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TAO1
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Atheists would say the same thing about the divinity of Jesus. Whether the world believes it to be true or not doesn’t matter.
Spirit of failure is your words, not mine. I don’t see failure… I see preparation.
I am sorry, for we disagree as to what Christ’s church is. =/.
The scriptures say the day of Christ will not come until there is a falling away first. Does a falling away mean Christ’s church failed? Nay. For Christ will always reign victorious, over death, and sin, and hell. Even if every single soul ceased to truly know Christ, would he have failed? No, for he will rescue those in prison, so great is his sacrifice. And his church will appear again, so great is his power. You may believe that the falling away will happen later, but I believe in a Restoration.
Because the Spirit tells me it is so. No other reason would convince me. You must understand… there isn’t a reason to believe in Christ in the first place, except for the Spirit. It makes all things click, and make a difference. I am so glad that in God’s great plan, he let us have the Spirit to know truth.
Alas, each person is responsible for determining what the truth is themselves.
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zaffiroborant
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TexanKnight
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RebeccaJ
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Hi, I was an atheist for over 20 years. Here’s the difference. Faith and reason are not at odds for those who follow Jesus Christ. For those who follow Joseph Smith, it is. My faith is not at odds with reason, why is yours?
Which is unreasonable in my view, this idea that God became man for our Salvation, promised to be with us always, but then you need God to have not done this but rather, did the exact opposite. This is not preparation, it is just plain and simply, a lie.
A falling away is not the same as a complete apostasy. There are many Catholics who believe this falling away is occurring now, because of the confusion in the world in regards to faith and God. Mormonism only adds to this confusion and seeks to be the catalyst for pulling people from the Faith, handed down once and for all. Mormonism is a part of the “falling away”. Works for it quite diligently with an army of missionaries who target Catholics.
Believing in Jesus Christ is reasonable. As I said, faith and reason are not at odds. It is only atheists and it seems Mormons, who believe it is. Why torture yourself in this fashion? The truth will set you free. His yoke is easy and His burden is light.
The Holy Spirit was given to Christ’s Church at Pentecost. The Spirit is not a Spirit of confusion, and Mormons are greatly confused.
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truthsave
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Falling away, apostasy…
who can ever put himself in a position to declare it? (OK except JS that he put himself in a lot of position)
Mormons with others want, really want to believe in it. Why? Just to cut themselves from the Gospels of Jesus Christ, and by His teachings, and by His church, to found another one in His name.
Peter felt away three times. He apostasized? And Jesus when he said he was going to do it He said he would fell away? That after that he was not going to be any more one of His apostols? No. He just pointed out that he was going to be weak.
In the apocalypse John said the Church was on apostasy?
No. But John was inspired, mormons say, but apparently not enough, or at least he had to say something that was only partially true, as Jesus did before him to the other apostols.
So this was for the good of humanity?
Of course it was to prepare humanity to the revelation He would have given to Joseph Smith. And this preparation had to be preceded by an apostasy. So He, Jesus Christ, whose coming was so much waited and prophetized, prepared the field so it after would fell down and apostasize to wait the right time to reveal the fullness of truth to Joseph Smith.
At that point Jesus could have come later when the humanity was going to be ready to accept the fullnes of truth prepared by Joseph Smith before Him as another John the Batistis or something like that.
But apparently believing through Joseph Smith is in a way better.
who can ever put himself in a position to declare it? (OK except JS that he put himself in a lot of position)
Mormons with others want, really want to believe in it. Why? Just to cut themselves from the Gospels of Jesus Christ, and by His teachings, and by His church, to found another one in His name.
Peter felt away three times. He apostasized? And Jesus when he said he was going to do it He said he would fell away? That after that he was not going to be any more one of His apostols? No. He just pointed out that he was going to be weak.
In the apocalypse John said the Church was on apostasy?
No. But John was inspired, mormons say, but apparently not enough, or at least he had to say something that was only partially true, as Jesus did before him to the other apostols.
So this was for the good of humanity?
Of course it was to prepare humanity to the revelation He would have given to Joseph Smith. And this preparation had to be preceded by an apostasy. So He, Jesus Christ, whose coming was so much waited and prophetized, prepared the field so it after would fell down and apostasize to wait the right time to reveal the fullness of truth to Joseph Smith.
At that point Jesus could have come later when the humanity was going to be ready to accept the fullnes of truth prepared by Joseph Smith before Him as another John the Batistis or something like that.
But apparently believing through Joseph Smith is in a way better.
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PaulDupre
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Catholics believe that the heresy of Mormonism is part of that falling away, along with all of the other restorationist religions and Protestantism.
It is you who are the apostates. You have gone after false gods.
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
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TAO1
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I was objecting to your use of the context of the word ‘organization’ lol, not that sometimes the Bishop’s still ask people to tithe with faith.
And, yes, you can still make it to heaven without paying tithes. Mormons have a different conception of heaven than Catholics do.
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TAO1
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Lol… your confusing the Holy Ghost with the Gift of the Holy Ghost.
The Gift of the Holy Ghost, which is conferred by the priesthood, allows you to have the Holy Ghost with you always. That is what was taken away.
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TAO1
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Nope, he was never convicted. He was arrested - but all of the charges were dropped.
As I pointed out earlier, you have a very high standard if you expect a man to tell a story the exact same way without any changing details all throughout his life. I don’t think I could live up to such a standard, lol. Could you?
In order for the Second Coming to occur, it says there must be a falling away. Now, I’m sure you could interpret this in other ways (such as a major loss in membership or whatnot). But an Apostasy also fits the description. You may believe what you want.
And no an apostasy doesn’t make Jesus weak, a liar, or cruel. In fact, it shows his strength, his preparation, and above all his love. It does no good to us to give us blessings and doctrines for which we are not worthy of, and if he deemed it necessary to remove, I think his judgement is fine.
Is there anything wrong, with a man learning to be perfect? For what shall we strive? Simply, to become perfect like our Father in Heaven.
And yes, Christ must let man have agency, or else, for what would they be judged. If evil didn’t create evil, could they be punished for their actions? Could they be tormented for actions they did not commit yet? I am not sure. But, I do believe committing such crimes begins to seal what they will inherit by their actions - pain and suffering.
But it could mean a total apostasy. In either case, it means something significant enough to be noted in prophecy. As I said, you are free to believe what you would like. Just as I am free to believe what I would like to. That is, both the blessing, and, in a small sense, a curse about life. But much more of a blessing indeed.
Well then you’ll take you road, and I’ll take mine, and at the end, we can talk it over and see how it went. That is the way we must go; going off of our own knowledge, and our own testimonies, and our own wills for our future. It is better, in my opinion, to come to no resolution until the day of judgement, indeed. For without it, we wouldn’t have much choice. It is better to have life with choice… even if it is a risk.
Best of Wishes,
-TAO
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TAO1
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Nah, reason doesn’t conflict with being LDS. Like with all things, you just work your paradigm around a little. Look at things, in new ways, and avenues open up.
And you need to realize I don’t look at it from the perspective of ‘follow Joseph Smith’. LDS don’t follow Joseph Smith. We follow Christ, through the prophets he has sent.
Nah, he didn’t promise to be with you always. But pretty close. You can’t deny the Holy Ghost and have him with you.
In any case, one thing he didn’t promise was to give you all the blessings immediately. He gives blessings generously, yet he is also prudent. So he is, also, with the priesthood.
Again, you may believe that an apostasy would mean God abandoning you. I don’t view it that way. I view it as prudence in him, and his will, which is ultimately better than mine.
Naturally. But as I mentioned to TexasKnight, it could be total apostasy. It’s a matter of opinion, in a sense.
Nah. You don’t understand Mormons too well. We accept reason just fine. It’s just faith takes priority, rather than the other way around. Not complete priority… it is decently balanced… but a priority nonetheless.
The truth has set me free. The Book of Mormon has been the greatest blessing on my life. Without it… well, I wouldn’t be free, I guess you could say, to use that phrase. =)
In your opinion, respectfully. I disagree, of course. Alas, that is okay.
Best of Wishes,
-TAO
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zaffiroborant
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The Holy Spirit left according to you.
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NewSeeker
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Perhaps you and Joseph Smith might soon forget that God the Father and Jesus suddenly and literally appeared to you, hovering in the air over your head, but I for one could never forget such a shocking, life-altering experience.
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RebeccaJ
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No one has this confusion except you. God sent the gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
The Apostles chose their successors, by layng on of hands, and those men ordained their successors, down to this day.
Jesus has sustained His Church, always.
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RebeccaJ
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I understand Mormons, better than you do yourself. You are too close to it to see, and understand, that it has you immersed in lies. Layers of them, and I don’t think that is Ok.
I don’t know why it is Mormons believe the lies. That is the real kicker, something I will never understand.
I believe Scriptures, Christ’s Church is His bride. He is not a Groom who plays games, withholding from His Bride what He has given her. He is God, not a political gamer.
Jesus sustains His Church and always has. To believe otherwise is to believe in a false god.
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TexanKnight
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HonoraDominum
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Mormons believe the lies because they are told that if they do not, that they are committing the worst sin, the denial of the Holy Ghost. Or they believe that anything contradicting the teachings of the church is of the Devil. You know, our brother as well as Christ’s, who looks really hot in the temple video from the 90’s.
But I digress.
Mormons are told that if they pray, the witness of the “burning in the bosom” will tell them that Joseph Smith is who he says he is, and that Mormon gospel is true. Unless, you know, it doesn’t, in which case you didn’t pray hard enough, or you’re attached to sin, or unless you aren’t paying your full tithing, or some such other fault on our account. It is true, and if you don’t think it’s true, you are under the influence of the Devil. That’s some pretty serious threats. Even after I left the LDS church and stopped wearing my garments, I didn’t throw them out for years, you know, just in case. Even after I converted to Catholicism, I was terrified that I would be found out by a friend or family member and get “excommunicated”. It took over six years after I was baptized Catholic and over 11 years after I had left the church before I had the nerve to have my names taken off off the church membership rolls. And even now, after all of the graces that I have been given by Him through my love of Him and the sacraments of the Catholic church, every once a while a little thought like a gnat buzzing in my brain says, “Are you reeeeealy sure?” That’s some serious brainwashing right there.
There’s also that caveat of “Well, the Protestants say that if I believe in Christ, then I’m going to heaven. I believe in Christ, so I’m covered there. Catholics say that I have to be baptized and live a good life. I’ve got that covered, too. So basically even if Joseph Smith was not a true prophet, I’m still covered by ‘Christian’ standards, so what’s the big deal?” Which, of course, the big deal is that “Christians” don’t believe God came down with His Son and talked to Joseph Smith in His perfected body and was like us at one time, nor that there were any people on this continent that could have written a book on gold plates a few thousand years ago.
Even if a person denies the divinity of Christ, and denies the existence of Heaven, and does not consider the Bible to be the inerrant word of God, there is too much historical evidence to deny the fact that there was a man named Jesus and that He was nailed to a cross and that He was executed without just cause by a leader named Pontius Pilot. There is also 2000 years worth of evidence of miracles that have happened to people dedicated to living the life of Christ, some subtle like healing, and some (like Padre Pio) with very public manifestations of their walk with Christ or the Dancing with the Sun with the children at Fatima.
However, there is not one single piece of archeological evidence that supports a people that were here 2000 years ago descended from Hebrews as the Book of Mormon claims. DNA evidence has proved that the “Lamanite” (Hebrew) heritage of the Indians as taught by Joseph Smith and the LDS leadership is nothing but a complete falsehood. The reemergence of the scrolls to which the Book of Abraham was based is undeniable evidence that the “translation” done by Joseph Smith on ancient papyri that were purchased by a traveling salesman was nothing but an imaginative tale, with not one single word or character being correctly translated from the scrolls.
So it seems that it’s not evidence, and it’s not “spiritual witness” that gets people to believe the lies, so my theory is brainwashing and fear. Lots and lots of fear.
Every day I give thanks that I have been given the grace to be taught of God’s LOVE every day, and not God’s checklist for me, or God’s promises that if broken are my fault, or my constant fear of not being worth of blessings from God. I’m grateful for the simple knowledge of knowing that we are here because God love us and He wants to be united to us, and that He gives us all of the grace that we need to live lives of sanctity and unity with Him. I’m grateful of his Divine Mercy, and of his Sacred Heart which was so wounded for love of us. I’m grateful that I don’t look at the Garden of Gethsemene as a simple “Atonement”, but see it as the beginning of his Passion, with the end result of his acceptance of this burden being asked of Him for my sins. I’m grateful that I look to God as a Father and Christ as a friend, and the Holy Ghost as a companion with me always and not as God and Jesus as two separate people, sitting in judgement, indifferent to my struggles and to my desire for happiness, subjecting me to servile fear and punishment. I knew none of these things when I was Mormon. And they have made my life change so very much since these very simple concepts were introduced to me.
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Patavium
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You are right HonoraDominum,
There is plenty of fear instilled in mormons.
see this paragraph from an Elder
That is a reminder of the implication in the Lord’s words when He asks: “Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me.” The people ask, “Wherein have we robbed thee?” And the Lord thunders back, “In tithes and offerings” (Malachi 3:8). Yes, brothers and sisters, just as John and Ida Whetten realized that summer decades ago, we are all indebted to the Lord. Let us not be accused of robbing God. Let us be honest and pay our debts to the Lord. All He asks is 10 percent. Integrity in paying our debts to the Lord will help us be honest with our fellowmen.
The next thing I notice about that story is that my grandparents paid tithing regardless of the poor condition of their family finances. They knew the Lord’s commandment; they likened the scriptures unto themselves (see 1 Nephi 19:23–24) and obeyed the law. This is what the Lord expects of all His people. He expects us to pay tithing not from our abundance nor from the “leftovers” of the family budget but, as He commanded anciently, from the “firstlings” of our income, be it scarce or abounding. The Lord has commanded, “Thou shalt not delay to offer the first … fruits” (Exodus 22:29). It has been my personal experience that the surest way to pay tithing faithfully is to pay it as soon as I receive any income. In fact, I’ve found it to be the only way.
lds.org/general-conference/2011/04/the-lords-richest-blessings?lang=eng
If you don’t pay tithe, then you are robbing god!! Wow. So pay quickly!.
There is plenty of fear instilled in mormons.
see this paragraph from an Elder
That is a reminder of the implication in the Lord’s words when He asks: “Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me.” The people ask, “Wherein have we robbed thee?” And the Lord thunders back, “In tithes and offerings” (Malachi 3:8). Yes, brothers and sisters, just as John and Ida Whetten realized that summer decades ago, we are all indebted to the Lord. Let us not be accused of robbing God. Let us be honest and pay our debts to the Lord. All He asks is 10 percent. Integrity in paying our debts to the Lord will help us be honest with our fellowmen.
The next thing I notice about that story is that my grandparents paid tithing regardless of the poor condition of their family finances. They knew the Lord’s commandment; they likened the scriptures unto themselves (see 1 Nephi 19:23–24) and obeyed the law. This is what the Lord expects of all His people. He expects us to pay tithing not from our abundance nor from the “leftovers” of the family budget but, as He commanded anciently, from the “firstlings” of our income, be it scarce or abounding. The Lord has commanded, “Thou shalt not delay to offer the first … fruits” (Exodus 22:29). It has been my personal experience that the surest way to pay tithing faithfully is to pay it as soon as I receive any income. In fact, I’ve found it to be the only way.
lds.org/general-conference/2011/04/the-lords-richest-blessings?lang=eng
If you don’t pay tithe, then you are robbing god!! Wow. So pay quickly!.
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RebeccaJ
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Explains people who were raised LDS, and don’t leave. Doesn’t explain converts, especially adult converts, and most especially, converts from Catholicism.
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Patavium
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I testify that as we pay our tithing faithfully, the Lord will open the windows of heaven and pour out upon us His richest blessings. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
lds.org/general-conference/2011/04/the-lords-richest-blessings?lang=eng
lds.org/general-conference/2011/04/the-lords-richest-blessings?lang=eng
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