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ringil
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Indeed, who are these people to deny their children one of modern societies most successful and laudable public health works. It’s reprehensable.
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Tenofovir
Guest
The vast majority of Catholics vaccinate their children. I think this phenomenon is a libertarian phenomenon and not a Catholic one. I’m surprised you haven’'t noticed this already. And there are many atheists in the libertarian camp.
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rainbow1
Guest
Yes, she does have a rare genetic disorder on top of other things. Being a careful and prudent parent does not equate to being over protective. Some parents have very good medical reasons for not having their children vaccinated. And yes, she has been tested for just about every rare disease on the face of the earth. I am not a neglectful parent who makes poor decisions. Sometimes a parent has to make difficult decisions. That does not make them poor decisions. And sometimes it involves weighing the odds.
I believe parents are responsible for the decisions regarding their children’s health. Of course they need to discuss difficult decisions with preferably multiple doctors to make the best decision possible. But my child was entrusted to me by God and not to a doctor. And doctors are not God.
No person on this forum can give medical advice to any other person…especially if they are a physician. In fact it is quite against forum rules, for very important reasons. You do not, and nobody else on this thread can know the details of any other persons health history, hence they can’t say if it is negligence or not to provide or not provide immunization to their children…
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Tenofovir
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But your litigation does help make doctors more responsible. There is more cowboy medicine outside of the US.
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scipio337
Guest
As is sex education, but we seemed to have passes that responsibility to our public school system (who have a smashing record of success!).
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rainbow1
Guest
Please read my posts.
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TheTrueCentrist
Guest
So in other words, you are not actually contradicting the advice of your doctor regarding vaccinations?
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SamTheNewfie
Guest
Getting the Chicken Pox vaccine is actually putting thy neighbor at risk for the sake of convenience. This one of the reasons why the rest of the world doesn’t mandate it. From the NHS website:
nhs.uk/chq/Pages/1032.aspx?CategoryID=62&SubCategoryID=63
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L_piperatus
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That’s a good post, Hokomai!
To other posters: there’s no need to fall into the extreme of “all drugs are bad, and the doctors are more interested in selling drugs than helping patients” - I personally know many doctors (some Catholic, some not) who adhere to high ethical standards and they are truly trying to help their patients as best as modern medical science allows it. Drugs and vaccines are an important and helpful part of the arsenal of medicine. Btw, some of the breakthrough vaccines against rabies and anthrax were developed by the great and faithfully Catholic scientist Louis Pasteur.
On the other hand, all drugs and vaccines come with certain risks of side effects, sometimes fatal side effects. It is possible to overdo drug use and vaccine use, to take too many risks for minor therapeutic benefits. Gardasil vaccine is a good example of that.
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exnihilo
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I offer maybes because I’m uncertain. I’m not a doctor. I’m not a researcher. I’m not going to tell people I know these things with certainty because I dont. Most people, including doctors, are just repeating something they were told or read. So they dont know these things either. I’m just being honest.
You cant dismiss evidence because of the source. You shouldn’t need to if it clearly does not prove the point. The medical industry would be biased in favor of vaccines. Do you dismiss their evidence because of that? I dont dismiss it. But I do not accept it automatically. These are the same folks who said butter was horrible one day and then OK the next. These are the people who bought into the cholesterol myth. The original researcher found 4 countries that agreed with his theory and used only those to make his point. The medical community then based generations of health advice on this badly formed theory. These are the same people giving you Lipitor, which can harm your liver, and does not actually increase life span in their own studies.
This guy probably recommended lots of vaccines:
I’m not complaining about being inconvenienced. I’m not going to put unnecessary disease into my body to cause an immune reaction nor subject it to what could be toxins in the delivery mechanism.
As for the flu yes it can be deadly. It is deadly in old people and others with compromised immune systems (like soldiers in WWI stuffed in boats and citizens who have been deprived of nutrients due to war). Modern flu statistics are suspicious because the CDC will label any respiratory death as flu caused.
The great decrease of disease in recent history is most likely due more to better nutrition and better sanitation. At the very least you have to acknowledge that had some impact, which none of the vaccine promoters, or the Spanish Flu graph you cited as evidence, do.
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rainbow1
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No, they feel that she would be fine to have it again now she is older, and I am saying that her body is not ready yet…but you know, that is my RIGHT as her parent. It is not so much as going against medical advice as it is my decision, not theirs, and certainly not yours to debate. I am her parent and I believe that the vaccine harmed my child. Can I prove it? No. Can they prove it didn’t ? No .Anybody claiming all children should be vaccinated without knowing the particulars of each child’s health history is totally off base. And it is ultimately the decision of the parent, not the doctor.
I am off this thread.
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SamTheNewfie
Guest
I was referring the Hep B vax.
I think vaxing children for measles and mumps(rubella not so much) is a good idea. I’m not going to get upset about those who don’t though. The MMR vaccine is almost 99% effective, and the small amount of vaxed individuals do contract one of these illnesses will get a much milder form. Measles has a less than 1% chance of serious complications without vaccination, so it’s really that much of a concern for us.
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Tenofovir
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And just recently I discovered that I* was not as good as the industry / science previously thought I was. It’s always tricky with science, as science is tentative, and never fixed. Results may change with time as our understanding increases or we discover confounding factors.
infectioncontroltoday.com/news/2012/02/leading-hiv-medication-linked-with-risk-of-kidney-damage.aspx
infectioncontroltoday.com/news/2012/02/leading-hiv-medication-linked-with-risk-of-kidney-damage.aspx
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pnewton
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Vaccination or not, that is truly not the point here, but whether a doctor must treat people who as patients who sometimes follows his recommendations, sometimes reject it outright. I am a believer and freedom and am with the doctors on this. If you do not want vaccinations, then it is up to you to find a doctor that will treat you without vaccinating.
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Tenofovir
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HBV is a good vaccine. I do concur.
With vaccines there is also an issue of herd immunity. Measles may not be so harmful to immunologically competent persons, but those with HIV/leukemia/on chemotherapy etc. are at greater risk of complications and death. Rubella too can be serious for unborn children.
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SamTheNewfie
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I don’t think you get what I’m saying. I’m opposed to giving the Hep B vaccine at birth unless the mother tests positive. It is pointless to do so. Most Western countries either wait until school age or reserve it for at risk groups.
Rubella is harmful to unborn children, which is why women who haven’t had the disease should be vaxed before becoming pregnant. As for the small minority of people who are immunocompromised, I don’t think we should take away someone else’s right to make their own health decisions for the sake bending over backwards for select groups. The common cold is dangerous to such individuals. Going out into the general public is a bad idea.
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Tenofovir
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Well Hep B is a very serious illness which is relatively easy to acquire, even through non sexual ways. I think the vaccine is a very good idea.
Yes but if (almost) everyone is immunised, your herd immunity will prevent those cases where the woman is not vaccinated prior to pregnancy, the mother is exposed while pregnant and will save a baby from death or suffering.
Except children with measles will sit in waiting rooms next to HIV/AIDS, diabetes or cancer patients. People with immunodeficiencies can’t avoid all public outings. Also the common cold is not as bad as measles - not even close.
Oh I agree that there should be an overall benefit to vaccination. But I don’t think one can brush these benefits off as you do.
From a moral/Catholic perspective you should bend over to those people’ benefit. “What you do for the least of these…”
From a libertarian perspective, I agree, to hades with them.
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TheTrueCentrist
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Indeed. Experts in the US and Japan evidently disagreed. I suspect that someone will be vindicated before the end of this decade. Studies have shown that the chicken pox vaccine has reduced death from chicken pox by over 90%. Evidence from Taiwan suggests that fears of an explosion of shingles after vaccination did not pan out, so I am optimistic.
There is also the fact that a shingles vaccination is available.
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Nec5
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It think legally, the doc should have the right. Morally, I was under the impression that doctors had a belief system not unlike Christ and the Apostles (and likely one influenced by them). I thought they would feel a moral obligation to help all those in need even if the person refused to stop smoking or diving off cliffs, etc.
It could also be moral to drop a patient if the doctor feels he is enabling the patient’s bad behavior by constantly fixing him up.
The vaccination issue is another animal. You have the right to determine what medicines to take if you are healthy or sick. You have the moral duty to safeguard your body using your best judgment. Vaccines are a judgment call. The idea that someone not taking a vaccine hurts someone else is very dangerous thinking. It’s precisely the same kind of anti-freedom thinking that required seatbelts, child carseats, cameras on street corners, and leads to the government regulating salt, school lunches (see the thread about the kid getting his lunch confiscated), and all sorts of evil overreaches.
The herd immunity argument is deceptively dangerous. It is true that a group of people who are immune is not likely to infect someone who was unable to take the vaccine. But why stop there? There are thousands of health practices (washing hands, using certain types of soap, washing your hair as often as guidelines suggest, etc) that would also protect people with weakened immune systems.
No, that’s a violation of our God given liberties as individuals. We are called to help others, but we are not called to follow the dictates of “experts” because it “may” help someone else. That type of thinking is why the Catholic church finds itself in a battle with the contraception case. The “experts” cite statistics and studies that contraceptives prevent harmful conditions that “may” occur via pregnancy. Therefore, it is our duty to help prevent these conditions just as it is our duty to take vaccines according to the “experts” to prevent other harmful conditions. Science is a powerful guide and an essential one, but it is not the only factor in our judgment.
See the logic? It’s twisted. The fact that pregnancy and vaccinations are different concepts or apples and oranges doesn’t matter once you begin buying into the herd mentality and the tyranny of the “experts”. You are a child of Christ. You should be able to decide whether to trust a vaccine and not have doctors and other “healers” shun you.
And for the record, I’ve had all the major vaccines. Not a big deal to me. I don’t ever get the flu vaccine. Some people do have horrible reactions to vaccines; most probably do not. That’s why it should be an individual decision.
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SamTheNewfie
Guest
Hep B is not acquired through casual contact. The only reason it is given at birth is convenience.
It was her responsibility to protect herself. It is not the job of my child to pick up her slack.
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