More Liturgical Abuses

[kermitz06]

So… where do I begin.

The parish we attend has recently taken some drastic changes for the worse and I need help backing up my letter to our priest. These questions pertain solely to the OF.

1. What parts of the Mass may the priest change, i.e. ad lib, change the wording of a prayer etc. and with what documents can i back that up?
2. I am pretty sure the priest must hold the bread and wine during the Consecration or it is not valid… but how can I back that up? (our priest recently decided to sign the entire Mass including the Consecration.

please help.

 

[kermitz06]

Kermitz’s wife here, specifying more what he means…

1. If Fr. signs during the consecration (including during the “this is my body…”), then raises it up afterwards, does the consecration actually take place, if he’s not holding it. We were pretty sure it didn’t, so decided to not partake, which was extremely difficult for us.
2. During the Liturgy of the Eucharist, can the “Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father” be changed?
3. Have you EVER sung during the Gospel reading?!? During the Gospel reading today, he read a little big of it (which did NOT line up with the reading in our missal by the way)… then would stop and sing something like “Roll the stone away. Come out. Come out”… then he’d read some more, then we’d all sing again, and near the end, we had to sing it like 4 or 5 times, crecendo-ing each time. We looked at each other and thought “What the heck???” Ever seen it happen? Is that even OK??? Thoughts on this crazy idea??
   When I say the reading didn’t line up, an example is instead of reading “And Jesus wept” he read “and then Jesus our Lord wept.” I don’t get this, because the first two readings went along with our missal exactly, but the Gospel did not. (Our missal is the New American Bible text-the New St Joseph Sunday missal-which we have to use because no church in the diocese provides missals)
4. Can the Agnus Dei be changed?
5. I know that on Scrutiny Sundays, we are suppose to use the readings from year A. However, if the scrutiny doesn’t take place during the mass (ie it takes place at 11:30 and we’re at 9:30), should year B then be read? or should A be read at every mass?
6. Is the Passion play INSTEAD OF the Gospel reading allowed? This is what is taking place next Sunday we were told.

 

[Dauphin]

Yikes.

Just go to the Old Latin Mass and avoid all this junk.

I don’t think corporal contact with the Eucharist is necessary for validity.

 

[LilyM]

Yikes.

Just go to the Old Latin Mass and avoid all this junk.

I don’t think corporal contact with the Eucharist is necessary for validity.

No - in fact at masses such as St Peters’ Basilica Easter Mass, the MANY ciboria and chalices which are consecrated are not even all on the altar during the consecration. If contact were required then they couldn’t be consecrated.

 

[kermitz06]

I found this link on the topic…

ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur239.HTM

I know not all hosts must be held/contacted during the Consecration, they however must remain on the altar, in approved sacred vessels, and on the corporal.

It is required in the Roman Rite correct?

We are lucky enough to have the OF in town, and will most likely be going there from now on. But I can’t just leave without trying to help.

 

[LilyM]

I found this link on the topic…

ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur239.HTM

I know not all hosts must be held/contacted during the Consecration, they however must remain on the altar, in approved sacred vessels, and on the corporal.

It is required in the Roman Rite correct?

We are lucky enough to have the OF in town, and will most likely be going there from now on. But I can’t just leave without trying to help.

No. There were over 100,000 people receiving communion at the World Youth Day Mass last year - that many hosts and ciboria would not fit on any corporal or altar known to humanity!

 

[kermitz06]

No. There were over 100,000 people receiving communion at the World Youth Day Mass last year - that many hosts and ciboria would not fit on any corporal or altar known to humanity!

That doesn’t necessarily mean it was allowed.

in the GIRM

1. The altar on which the Sacrifice of the Cross is made present under sacramental signs is also the table of the Lord to which the People of God is called together to participate in the Mass, as well as the center of the thanksgiving that is accomplished through the Eucharist. 74
2. The celebration of the Eucharist in a sacred place is to be carried out on an altar; but outside a sacred place, it may be carried out on a suitable table, always with the use of a cloth, a corporal, a cross, and candles.

 

[Crumpy]

Our last bishop and some priests close to him were cynical about the “liturgy cops” in the congregation.

our replacement bishop “heard” the complaints when he got here and he put an implementation date for all liturgies to comply.

I think spontaneous innovation is distracting, and beyond that it is distressing.

If you have a video camera, I’d take it to the Mass and sit in the front pew and record everything, conspicuously. Hold your ground and just be conspicuous about recording what is going on.

If you can, get an appointment to discuss the form of the liturgy and what concerns you.

Canon Law asserts your right to notify the local bishop about what is going on, to let your concerns be known. You also have the right to change parishes, if that will help the immediate problem. I changed parishes myself.

if you get mail from the old parish, just send it back “refused” and it will quickly stop.

I went to Sunday Mass today, and people all around me were talking the whole time. I couldn’t believe it. Some kid was whistling in church before Mass.

Be calm and do what is right.

I wrote a letter to this one priest, then I went to see him. He physically pushed me out of the rectory and called me an uncharitable name that I can’t even write her, a vulgar name, to be sure.

Jesus told us that the wheat would grow up with the chaff. We have to expect opposition, even in the church.

 

[Shin]

Our last bishop and some priests close to him were cynical about the “liturgy cops” in the congregation.

our replacement bishop “heard” the complaints when he got here and he put an implementation date for all liturgies to comply.

I think spontaneous innovation is distracting, and beyond that it is distressing.

If you have a video camera, I’d take it to the Mass and sit in the front pew and record everything, conspicuously. Hold your ground and just be conspicuous about recording what is going on.

If you can, get an appointment to discuss the form of the liturgy and what concerns you.

Canon Law asserts your right to notify the local bishop about what is going on, to let your concerns be known. You also have the right to change parishes, if that will help the immediate problem. I changed parishes myself.

if you get mail from the old parish, just send it back “refused” and it will quickly stop.

I went to Sunday Mass today, and people all around me were talking the whole time. I couldn’t believe it. Some kid was whistling in church before Mass.

Be calm and do what is right.

I wrote a letter to this one priest, then I went to see him. He physically pushed me out of the rectory and called me an uncharitable name that I can’t even write her, a vulgar name, to be sure.

Jesus told us that the wheat would grow up with the chaff. We have to expect opposition, even in the church.

I am thankful to God for you doing what you have done. Keep on looking out for the Lord’s liturgy. It is difficult, I know. But these are very difficult times. We can only do what we can, with God’s grace.

 

[FAB]

Kermitz’s wife here, specifying more what he means…

1. If Fr. signs during the consecration (including during the “this is my body…”), then raises it up afterwards, does the consecration actually take place, if he’s not holding it. We were pretty sure it didn’t, so decided to not partake, which was extremely difficult for us.

Since I don’t have a copy of the GIRM handy I can’t speak as to the motions during the consecration, but the actual consecration is through the Holy Spirit. I’m certain that even if the preist doesn’t motion exaclty as the GIRM Consecration Still takes place.

1. During the Liturgy of the Eucharist, can the “Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father” be changed?

There are number of different forms to the prays, some priest will do them from memory, depends on how it was changed or if it was an alternate form. If he did something like Yo, Brothers, it could be a problem. Otherwise it just being overly scruplious.

1. Have you EVER sung during the Gospel reading?!? During the Gospel reading today, he read a little big of it (which did NOT line up with the reading in our missal by the way)… then would stop and sing something like “Roll the stone away. Come out. Come out”… then he’d read some more, then we’d all sing again, and near the end, we had to sing it like 4 or 5 times, crecendo-ing each time. We looked at each other and thought “What the heck???” Ever seen it happen? Is that even OK??? Thoughts on this crazy idea??
   When I say the reading didn’t line up, an example is instead of reading “And Jesus wept” he read “and then Jesus our Lord wept.” I don’t get this, because the first two readings went along with our missal exactly, but the Gospel did not. (Our missal is the New American Bible text-the New St Joseph Sunday missal-which we have to use because no church in the diocese provides missals)

This is a form of reading the Gospel that up until a couple a years ago was allowed. Our parish used it a number of times and if done properly can be quite beautiful. However, there have been new instructions that the Gospel cannot be changed. So this form can no longer be used. The Gospel is to be proclaimed by the Preist or if serving at the mass, the deacon. The Gospel can be chanted, It can also be done as a chorus, meaning more than one deacon or preist doing the proclamation.

1. Can the Agnus Dei be changed?

**Yes, The basic words remain the same. **

1. I know that on Scrutiny Sundays, we are suppose to use the readings from year A. However, if the scrutiny doesn’t take place during the mass (ie it takes place at 11:30 and we’re at 9:30), should year B then be read? or should A be read at every mass?

The times that Cycle A must be read are when there are the elect at the mass and specifically for the Scutinies. There is no prohibition of Using Cycle A readings at the masses were the elect are not present.

1. Is the Passion play INSTEAD OF the Gospel reading allowed? This is what is taking place next Sunday we were told.

See above, the Gopsel is always to be proclaimed.

 

[Mattapoisett64]

That doesn’t necessarily mean it was allowed.

in the GIRM

1. The altar on which the Sacrifice of the Cross is made present under sacramental signs is also the table of the Lord to which the People of God is called together to participate in the Mass, as well as the center of the thanksgiving that is accomplished through the Eucharist. 74
2. The celebration of the Eucharist in a sacred place is to be carried out on an altar; but outside a sacred place, it may be carried out on a suitable table, always with the use of a cloth, a corporal, a cross, and candles.

Your response can be taken to mean that you are accusing the Holy Father of committing a liturgical abuse. Is that what you are saying - that he did something that was not allowed?

 

[Phemie]

See above, the Gopsel is always to be proclaimed.

But on Palm Sunday and Good Friday it may be divided among readers: a Narrator; the priest reading the words of Jesus; and up to three other readers or two readers and the congregation sharing the rest of the text.

 

[FAB]

But on Palm Sunday and Good Friday it may be divided among readers: a Narrator; the priest reading the words of Jesus; and up to three other readers or two readers and the congregation sharing the rest of the text.

The answer refered to the use of a Liturgical play in place of the proclamation which would not be allowed.
I would have to check, but I believe the other proclaimers must also be priest or deacons, it’s one of the points that I would need to go back to the latest documents to verify.

Peace,
FAB

 

[Deacon_Ed]

1. What parts of the Mass may the priest change, i.e. ad lib, change the wording of a prayer etc. and with what documents can i back that up?

There are portions of the Mass where the directions say that the priest may use the prescribed “or similar” words. This generally applies to things like form C of the General Intercessions. Prayers are always specified and may not be changed (although there are generally two opening prayers and the priest may choose either of them). There are also a number of Eucharistic Prayers that may be used: the standard four plus three children’s prayers and two “reconcilliation” Eucharistic Prayers.

1. I am pretty sure the priest must hold the bread and wine during the Consecration or it is not valid… but how can I back that up? (our priest recently decided to sign the entire Mass including the Consecration.

There is no requirement that the priest actually hold the bread or the chalice/cup at the time of the consecration. In general, he need only touch one paten/ciborium containing the hosts then he says the prayer. He must raise at least one host after the prayer of consecration, but that has nothing to do with the validity of the consecration, that would relate to the liceity. I spent 10 years in ministry to the Deaf community and all the priests that served us who could sign would sign the consecratory prayers and then elevate the host. That’s perfectly acceptable.

Deacon Ed

 

[diggerdomer]

1. If Fr. signs during the consecration (including during the “this is my body…”), then raises it up afterwards, does the consecration actually take place, if he’s not holding it. We were pretty sure it didn’t, so decided to not partake, which was extremely difficult for us.

Still valid.

1. During the Liturgy of the Eucharist, can the “Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father” be changed?

Depends on what specific “change” you’re referring to. Use a different address than “brethren”? Yes.

1. Have you EVER sung during the Gospel reading?!? During the Gospel reading today, he read a little big of it (which did NOT line up with the reading in our missal by the way)… then would stop and sing something like "Roll the stone away.

I have experienced this before. It’s a composition that I’m guessing any parish might come across and decide to use (i.e. it’s not something unique to the place you were at, or created by them). Personally I don’t like it, but there’s nothing in the GIRM prohibiting it as long as the readings from the Lectionary are proclaimed.

1. Can the Agnus Dei be changed?

Not sure, what specific “change” did you observe or are you referring to?

1. I know that on Scrutiny Sundays, we are suppose to use the readings from year A. However, if the scrutiny doesn’t take place during the mass (ie it takes place at 11:30 and we’re at 9:30), should year B then be read? or should A be read at every mass?

Pastoral preference, either is legitimate.

 

[Dan-Man916]

So… where do I begin.

How about a course or two in liturgics?
I don’t mean this to be flip. There is a lot of opinion on internet forums and internet web sites, but nothing really replaces coursework.

 

[Cat]

Why not call your diocese and ask for an appointment with the liturgical expert in your area? Then meet with them and ask them to show you what is and is not correct?

I agree, you’ll get a million opinions on an online board, but the diocese should have the information. If you don’t trust your diocese but you trust an online board…well…I’m not sure how to respond to that.

 

[kermitz06]

Your response can be taken to mean that you are accusing the Holy Father of committing a liturgical abuse. Is that what you are saying - that he did something that was not allowed?

Maybe that is what I am saying, he was human after all.

How about a course or two in liturgics?
I don’t mean this to be flip. There is a lot of opinion on internet forums and internet web sites, but nothing really replaces coursework.

Wasn’t looking for an opinion… see below.

Why not call your diocese and ask for an appointment with the liturgical expert in your area? Then meet with them and ask them to show you what is and is not correct?

I agree, you’ll get a million opinions on an online board, but the diocese should have the information. If you don’t trust your diocese but you trust an online board…well…I’m not sure how to respond to that.

No offense but I wasn’t asking for an opinion, I was looking for some references to official documents or the like.

Maybe I am just fed up with the Catholic Church no longer being catholic, when every parish, every Mass is different, and many priests put their own spin on things it is very very sad. I figured that on a Traditional Catholic forum that would have been understood.

 

[kermitz06]

There is no requirement that the priest actually hold the bread or the chalice/cup at the time of the consecration. In general, he need only touch one paten/ciborium containing the hosts then he says the prayer. He must raise at least one host after the prayer of consecration, but that has nothing to do with the validity of the consecration, that would relate to the liceity. I spent 10 years in ministry to the Deaf community and all the priests that served us who could sign would sign the consecratory prayers and then elevate the host. That’s perfectly acceptable.

Deacon Ed

do you have a reference for that? I just want to be sure.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

do you have a reference for that? I just want to be sure.

Of course! In the rubrics found in the missal (I’ll use the Roman Canon, Eucharistic Prayer I but the directions are the same) we find that before the words of consecration the direction to the priest says “He bows slightly.” then says the words of consecration after which “He shows the consecrated host to the people, places it on the paten, and genuflects in adoration.” For the chalice he is to lift is before the words of consecration, then after the consecration “[h]e shows the chalice to the people…” There is nothing that indicates the host or the chalice is to remain elevated (although it usually is simply because it was elevated in the beginning of the action). However, all that is necessary for the confection of the Eucharist is that we have a validly ordained priest with the right intention, the right matter, the right words and the right context. There is nothing that says he must be holding the host/chalice at the times the words are said.

Deacon Ed