More Liturgical Abuses

[diggerdomer]

Maybe that is what I am saying, he was human after all.

Wasn’t looking for an opinion… see below.

No offense but I wasn’t asking for an opinion, I was looking for some references to official documents or the like.

Maybe I am just fed up with the Catholic Church no longer being catholic, when every parish, every Mass is different, and many priests put their own spin on things it is very very sad. I figured that on a Traditional Catholic forum that would have been understood.

Sorry if I missed something, but if there are specific issues you’re looking for official references for, would you please re-post? I would be interested in exploring further the specific concerns/issues you have and seeing what comes of it. I thought there were helpful responses to your questions on this thread, but if not please help us by clarifying or restating as necessary.

 

[Phemie]

The answer refered to the use of a Liturgical play in place of the proclamation which would not be allowed.
I would have to check, but I believe the other proclaimers must also be priest or deacons, it’s one of the points that I would need to go back to the latest documents to verify.

Peace,
FAB

No, they don’t have to be deacons or priests. At Mass, the priest reads the part of Jesus and lay people may read the other parts.

Paschale Solemnitatis says this:

1. The passion narrative occupies a special place. It should be sung or read in the traditional way, that is, by three persons who take the part of Christ, the narrator, and the people. The passion is proclaimed by deacons or priests, or by lay readers. In the latter case, the part of the Christ should be reserved to the priest.

 

[Dan-Man916]

Why not call your diocese and ask for an appointment with the liturgical expert in your area? Then meet with them and ask them to show you what is and is not correct?

I agree, you’ll get a million opinions on an online board, but the diocese should have the information. If you don’t trust your diocese but you trust an online board…well…I’m not sure how to respond to that.

Agreed.

 

[kermitz06]

Of course! In the rubrics found in the missal (I’ll use the Roman Canon, Eucharistic Prayer I but the directions are the same) we find that before the words of consecration the direction to the priest says “He bows slightly.” then says the words of consecration after which “He shows the consecrated host to the people, places it on the paten, and genuflects in adoration.” For the chalice he is to lift is before the words of consecration, then after the consecration “[h]e shows the chalice to the people…” There is nothing that indicates the host or the chalice is to remain elevated (although it usually is simply because it was elevated in the beginning of the action). However, all that is necessary for the confection of the Eucharist is that we have a validly ordained priest with the right intention, the right matter, the right words and the right context. There is nothing that says he must be holding the host/chalice at the times the words are said.

Deacon Ed

Thank you.

Something intersting that I found though, the new translation of the Mass that I found on the USCCB website states the following in all Eucharistic Prayers.

Rubrics in red

---

On the day before he was to suffer

 The Priest takes the bread and,

holding it slightly raised above the altar, continues:

he took bread in his holy and venerable hands,

 He raises his eyes.

and with eyes raised to heaven
to you, O God, his almighty Father,
giving you thanks he said the blessing,
broke the bread
and gave it to his disciples, saying:

 He bows slightly.

TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT OF IT,
FOR THIS IS MY BODY,
WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.

 He shows the consecrated host to the people, places it again on the paten, and genuflects

in adoration.

 the same for the chalice

---

Taken from Eucharistic Prayer I, page 20 in the folowing pdf. (page numbering shows it as 18).

usccb.org/liturgy/missalformation/OrdoMissaeWhiteBook.pdf

So what looks like happened, is holding the Host/Chalice used to be required, and soon will be required again. And it is not clear if that requirement was ever actually removed, or rather just understood as the “norms” of the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

 

[diggerdomer]

So what looks like happened, is holding the Host/Chalice used to be required, and soon will be required again. And it is not clear if that requirement was ever actually removed, or rather just understood as the “norms” of the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

From what I see, this not a change from the current Missal/Sacramentary. Different wording for the specific rubrics, but same actions (e.g. looking upward vs. raising eyes).

Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying, but it seems to me this requirement did not change, is still effective, and will not change with the new Missal.

 

[need_to_know]

No. There were over 100,000 people receiving communion at the World Youth Day Mass last year - that many hosts and ciboria would not fit on any corporal or altar known to humanity!

That doesn’t necessarily mean it was allowed.

in the GIRM

1. The altar on which the Sacrifice of the Cross is made present under sacramental signs is also the table of the Lord to which the People of God is called together to participate in the Mass, as well as the center of the thanksgiving that is accomplished through the Eucharist. 74
2. The celebration of the Eucharist in a sacred place is to be carried out on an altar; but outside a sacred place, it may be carried out on a suitable table, always with the use of a cloth, a corporal, a cross, and candles.

Your response can be taken to mean that you are accusing the Holy Father of committing a liturgical abuse. Is that what you are saying - that he did something that was not allowed?

Maybe that is what I am saying, he was human after all.

In response to this, I would like to point out that
a) we had about 400,000 at the closing mass the Pope Benedict (woo! ) and

b) I believe most of the hosts were pre-consecrated. As I saw it, the Pope only had the usual amount of hosts on his altar. There were priests near the front of where we were gathered who, at communion time, took containers of pre-consecrated hosts and brought them up to us. Here is a picture of a similar arrangement (this one is from the opening mass celebrated by Cardinal Pell):
View attachment 5497

However, this one did confuse me somewhat (what with the wine being there):

View attachment 5498

 

[otjm]

Maybe I am just fed up with the Catholic Church no longer being catholic, when every parish, every Mass is different, and many priests put their own spin on things it is very very sad. I figured that on a Traditional Catholic forum that would have been understood.

The Catholic church is just that - Catholic, which means universal. It does not mean identical. and it has not been identical for 2000 years. The EF itself was changed, albeit in minor matters, any number of times in the 500 or so years since Trent.

And every mass is different is simply baloney. Every Mass is identical - in that they have the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Both the EF and the OF have the same format - the two liturgies. Parts of them may differ, but in their essence they are the same. Not identical, but the same. Some priests put a spin on things; many more simply follow the rubrics, which allow some minor variations. Some people feel that having rubrics which allow minor variations is sad. Some people feel that is good.

And a whole lot of people don’t even notice the differences.

For starters, you might try focusing on what the essence of the Mass is about, and focus much less on the minor variations. If going to Mass and hearing the priest say “brethern” one week, and the next “brothers and sister” upsets you, it may be because you are focusing on externals instead of the essence of what is going on. I go to Mass to worship the Lord, ot grow closer to Christ, and to be strengthened for the next week. When I started focusing on that, and not on the externals, I found my faith growing, not being hindered.

 

[rpp]

I am a convert. As I learn more about the authentic faith, I become more and more attached to the traditional Latin Mass.

 

[Monica4316]

wow that’s so sad…
have you considered just finding a new parish?

 

[kermitz06]

wow that’s so sad…
have you considered just finding a new parish?

That’s exactly what we are doing, it is tough to have to do, but I feel it’s best for us.