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Castanza

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Why do i have to be grateful to God for saving me? He created us. I never asked for that. If he did not create us then none of this has to happen. I do not get it at all why people say you have to be grateful for the gift of life. If i were given a choice, i’d never be born. And as to going to hell and purgatory, i treat if like, more of a threat. So basically we were created, not being given a choice, “saved” and now we can also be sent to hell. I will be just fine not being born. I know this might sound a bit off to some but i’m asking this because this has prevented me from whole heartedly practicing my catholic faith. I want to see God as my friend and not my enemy.

Just to clarify, it might come of as angst but it is far from it. It’s not just a mere attitude problem. This question itself makes me suffer too much. I do not want to think this way and i wish to see it from a different perspective, and that is why i am asking this. I’ve strived to do what is good and just all through this hell of a life, but i have done it out of my will to not be like those people who hurt others. To be someone who eases pain, instead of becoming the aggressor. I want to be able to do all this out of love for God, instead of being a personal will. Why? It’s because my roots are the catholic faith. It says it is the right thing to do. I know i might not be viewing things welI, as a higher entity will have a better purpose of all this, and i really wish to see that.
 
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If you didn’t want to be created and feel no gratitude to the Creator. You could just simply not believe.
 
Castanza said:
So basically we were created, not being given a choice, “saved” and now we can also be sent to hell.
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Eh. I don’t know about this. People aren’t “sent” to hell. People choose hell. Hell is the opposite of God. If people don’t choose God they get hell.

Creation is actually an act of God’s love. God’s very essence is being. So in even letting us exist, God allows us to participate in his nature.
 
Just to clarify, it might come of as angst but it is far from it. It’s not just a mere attitude problem. This question itself makes me suffer too much. I do not want to think this way and i wish to see it from a different perspective, and that is why i am asking this. I’ve strived to do what is good and just all through this hell of a life, but i have done it out of my will to not be like those people who hurt others. To be someone who eases pain, instead of becoming the aggressor. I want to be able to do all this out of love for God, instead of being a personal will. Why? It’s because my roots are the catholic faith. It says it is the right thing to do. I know i might not be viewing things welI, as a higher entity will have a better purpose of all this, and i really wish to see that.
 
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I’m sorry I dont get it. Creation to the OP is not an act of love. They would rather not be born. Why would they believe in that construct of God? It’s like, I recognize as true all the CC teaches including purgatory but I reject the love. Why torture oneself? It’s a false representation of Catholicism. One would be free to reject it and be at “peace” I’d say they are rejecting a false representation of the faith anyway so I’d be ok with the rejection.
 
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And potentially be damned for it…
On CAF, anytime a thread touching on damnation comes up, we get a plethora of posts that boil down to “the vast majority of humans will be damned, but they all freely choose to be tortured for all eternity because that’s what they really truly want”.
I don’t think “just stop believing” (a mortal sin) is the answer here…

(I accept the Church’s teaching on heaven and hell but I struggle to accept how it’s presented here on CAF at times).
 
It isn’t stop believing. Its stop believing a false view of God. I reject the OPs religion of creation being an unloving violation of free will by God. I’d stop believing if that were what the Church taught.
 
twf said:
the vast majority of humans will be damned, but they all freely choose to be tortured for all eternity because that’s what they really truly want”.
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I agree. This is a basic thing to which catholics must already know. Also, i hope damnation would not be misinterpreted as the focus here, as subject of question, but rather the creation.
Hoosier-Daddy said:
It isn’t stop believing. Its stop believing a false view of God. I reject the OPs religion of creation being an unloving violation of free will by God. I’d stop believing if that were what the Church taught.
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This is exactly the MAIN essence of my question. I want to see it in this perspective, creation out of love. I am here not as someone who is attacking catholism, i am asking for help to understand it better.
 
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Ok. First establish why you think Catholicism teaches the view of God you claim?
 
I am wondering why you think and feel this way. There seems to be a negatively skewed view of life, love, beauty and all of the pluses that so many others perceive. If you are an active Catholic, have you spoken with Father about this?
 
You could do what you do out of love for other people rather than out of an egocentric reason.

Example: be kind to your neighbor because you really want to brighten his day and take his mind off his problems for even just one minute.
As opposed to being kind to your neighbor because you personally don’t want to be like people you’ve seen being unkind.

Loving other people is a big step towards loving God.

Also, I subscribe to the school of thought that whatever thinking pattern you habitually fall into will determine your attitude and mental state. If you are in the habit of thinking that you didn’t ask to be born, would rather not be born and don’t love God, I would suggest you say or better yet write, 10 times a day or more, “I do good things out of love for God” or “God, I love you, thank you for the gift of life” or something similar. It will feel uncomfortable and stupid at first, but if you keep it up daily, it will change your thought patterns over time.
 
Castanza said:
I want to be able to do all this out of love for God, instead of being a personal will.
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To me, this shows you’re not so far gone as you think ❤️
You’ve alluded to a difficult life, and you sound battle weary.
And trying to sort out these philosophical ideas when you’re hurting and tired is a huge task.

Do you really wish you never existed?
Do you think you might hurt yourself or other people.
If so, please contact the suicide crisis hotline.

I’m sorry you’re hurting. I’ll remember you in my prayers…:pray:t2::cry:
 
twf said:
“the vast majority of humans will be damned, but they all freely choose to be tortured for all eternity because that’s what they really truly want”.
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That’s not correct because the deposit of the faith holds no indication of proportion between damned/saved.
 
I like the analogy of God’s being a potter.

God wants to create a beautiful object. He takes some clay and molds it into a beautiful object.

Now look at it from the point of view of the clay. There’s the clay, perfectly happy in its inertness. No requirements, no effort, just being an ultimate couch potato.

Then it is jolted from its lazy existence, squozen, pushed into shape, thrown into a wheel, spun around, and forced into a totally different shape which it must maintain by standing up straight, then covered with paint and other coatings, and finally, burned almost to a crisp!

If I as the clay, resist being made into an object of beauty, a lovable object, then I am thrown into the rubbish heap.

The original impetus of God in this matter was to create something of beauty. His impetus in creating us is make an object of love and lovableness.

To make us objects of great love and lovableness, He has to mold us. We don’t like the process, we can resist the process.

Another analogy is that of a sick child the parents hope to make healthy. What the child might have to go through is terrible, but the motive of the parents is love for their child.
 
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And to bring all of this into perspective GOD so loved us that HE sent HIS only son to die for us, so that the Potter’s field, full of rejected, broken pieces might be redeemed, made whole again AND made Holy so that we could join with HIM forever.
 
Castanza said:
I never asked for that.
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Yet, you were created and there is no way to be “uncreated”.

I wish I had been created as a 5’10" fashion model daughter of the wealthiest family on earth. I was not, instead I was created as a person with dwarfism to an average middle class family.

The point is not to dwell on the things we cannot change (as Scripture says, who can add one day to their life or change their height by worrying about it). To be thankful for the little things. I am thankful for chocolate ice cream and for my dog and for the cool breeze and for the sunset.

When you start being thankful for little things, that gratitude grows.
 
@Castanza

I don’t think questions like these can ever be fully understood in this life, but the conclusion of theologians has been that creating a creature with a rational soul always means that the soul will be capable of sin and therefore requires God’s mercy. If a person in their pride indefinitely hardens themselves then they suffer eternally as a result of their eternal obstinacy. We only think in terms of time and even the worst illnesses eventually end in death, so we can’t grasp Heaven or hell.

I think there are some parallels in real life though. As people age and become more experienced, they become more and more set in their ways and less open to change. When there is nothing left to offer a person and they’ve seen it all and heard it all and are still obstinate to God in spite of it all, and if they reject the gift of final repentance before Judgement (which mystics have said God offers to everybody) then that person crosses a threshold that they never go back from.

As far as the question of consent (consent to be created): the fixation on consent is an invention of secular liberalism more than anything. The secular world says that things which are objectively wrong (according to the Church) are okay as long as all of the adults consent to it, but that isn’t how it works. Creation comes from God and is therefore objectively good regardless of whatever our own subjective perceptions might be. So a person being created - even if that person is an angel who becomes Satan - is a good act. The evil comes afterward and not from God.
 
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