Mormans and polygamy

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BYUChemAlum said:
Not so. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was founded by Jesus Christ, and our belief in an apostasy does not mean that Christ’s original mission was a failure. Indeed, His infinite atoning sacrifice provides the only means by which man can be saved.
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No, the LDS was not founded by Christ. Joseph Smith founded his own group of followers in the 1820’s and had the BoM written in the 1830’s. Recall that Christ gave Peter the Keys to the kingdom, and said to Peter that upon Peter (Rock), for Christ changed Simon’s name to ROCK, He would build His Church **and the gates of hell would never prevail. **
Matthew 16:18 KJV
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
:hmmm:Now, when you claim that the LDS church is the one founded by Christ and that it is this LDS church that restored the faith, you are in effect calling Jesus a LIAR!!! :tsktsk:How dare you insinuate that Jesus is a liar!!!

Jesus established the Church over 2000 years ago, and to this day that Church is still alive and protected by Christ, the faithful Groom, who died for His beloved Bride the Church. He would never abandon her and promised to be with her ALWAYS.

Matt 28:20 - “Behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age” KJV
We certainly agree that there have been and always will be apostasies in the Church, but not a TOTAL apostasy. Why, the very first apostasy, in my opinion, is found in the Gospel of John, while Jesus was alive:

John 6:66 - From that time many of his disciples went back , and walked no more with him.

Very interesting that this chapter and verse is the Number of the beast!!

See, this incident took part when Jesus was telling those who followed Him that in order to have eternal life they had to eat His flesh and drink His blood.

Matt 6 - 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying , How can this man give us his flesh to eat ? 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead : he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Because they refused to believe Christ’s words, they left and walked no more with Him. (Apostasy!). So from the beginning we see a turing away from Christ’s truths, however, not a total turing away. So it remains today. We trace our roots to Christ through the unbroken link of Bishops ordained from Christ and the Apostles.

Joseph Smith had no such link to Christ, nor do any of his followers.
 
Esdra said:
No, why?

Isn’t there free will? Yes, I know in John 16:13 it says: “But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.” But doesn’t a human still have his free will? So he can choose, if he follows the guidance of the HS, or hpersue is own ways, or even listen to the Devil who is the Master of Lies!
Do you really think bishops, cardinals, well, even popes, down to priests always listened? No, I don’t!
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Hi Esdra,

You are correct that many Religious figures in the Church sinned, however, do not cast aside those who were truly saintly. Some of the greatest sinners of the Church became some of the holiest people (ie: St. Augustine).

Christ promised to guide His Church to all truth - this truth is in matters on Faith and Morals, and when the Pope speaks ex-cathedra, he is infallible on those doctrines as revealed from Christ and on matters of Faith and Morals.

1 Tim 3:15 KJV - But if I tarry long , that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Now, in every day matters, the Pope is fallible just as we all are.

The Church has always safeguarded and kept the Doctrines unchanged. The Church has given the world the Sacred text of the Canon of the Bible and safeguards it so it remains intact and unchanged.

Not so with other “books” (ie: Protestants Bibles, the Koran, and BoM to name a few). All those other religions and denominations were founded upon men, not Christ.

(KJV) 2 Cor 11 - 3 But I fear , lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached , ***or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received , or another gospel, which ye have not accepted ***, ye might well bear with him.

**2 John 1 (KJV): **- 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought , but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgresseth , and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2 Tim 4:(KJV) - 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.This is what Joseph Smith did and his followers.
 
Esdra said:
Yeah, well remembered! 😉

I think everyone could and can be guided by the Holy Spirit when preaching the gospel orally.

But what I wanted to say: You all seem to forget that the PEOPLE are making up the Church.
Without people, no Catholic Church, you see?
And people could and can error. And they certainly did also in the past. Poor Jesus can’t help there. He can and does send the HS, but he can’t help if people don’t listen to it!
In this light, an Apostasy is quite possible furthermore considering a 2000 year long history of Christianity.
And why shouldn’t the HS guide people, whether they are the Reformators or even JS ('though I don’t believe him to be guided by the HS), to “restore” the original teaching?
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Hello Esdra,

Christ did not promise each and every individual to be guided infallibly by the Holy Spirit. He promised that to the Church under the Pope that He gave us and that the Holy Spirit continues to give to the Church (The Church through the chosen “shepherds” – our ordained leaders).

Jesus said this to His Apostles shortly before He was to be crucified:
John 14: - 16 And I will pray to the Father, and He will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. 18 "I will not leave you desolate; I will come to you.

John 20:22 RSVA
And when he had said this, he (Jesus) breathed on them, (the Apostles) and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 1:2 RSVA
until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commandment through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen.

As for individuals, they cannot interpret correctly everything in the Scriptures. We are warned:

2 Peter 1:20 RSVA
First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation

2 Peter 3:16 RSVA
speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which*** the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures***.

Where do we find the truth?

1 Tim 3:15 - if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
 
KathleenGee said:
I have been primarily a housewife, and headed a lay branch of a religious institute…I was invited into professional ministry in my diocese. The priest appointed was put in by Cardinal Levada who is now one of the top prelates for the Catholic faith. The priest was put in to correct errors in Catholicism being promoted by lay professional ministers.

So we reviewed the actual Church documents, and I went parttime for over 5 years. We never studied interpretative materials but the actual documents.

The course that I found my need for correct understanding was the Nature and Mission of the Church.

The Church is founded on Jesus Christ, and is drawing its life from Jesus Christ. The Church is guided to properly interpreted Sacred Scripture – Catholics understanding the whole of text of Salvation History rather than drawing too many assumptions on single phrases of Scripture or paragraphs or a book to create a new church belief.

Sacred Scripture has many levels. But it is the Holy Spirit that sustains the Church insuring the proper interpretation of the Living Word of God according to the Oral Tradition given us directly by His actual witnesses, His apostles.

It is one thing to read about Christ vs one who was chosen to directly accompany Him, witness Him, and be personally taught by Him…a direct witness. So our faith is not based on the interpretation of one man who never witnessed Christ who is beginning a reformation or a new church when it separates from the lifeblood of Jesus Christ found in the Church.

This insuring of correct interpretation through the power of the Holy Spirit is called Tradition. Tradition is the Holy Spirit leading the Church to properly interpret and integrate the Word of God with life. The Catholic understanding of Christ reaffirms that He is King, because His teachings overcome and transcend the reality of this world.

The proper understanding of God should not alienate us from ourselves, the life around us to then make us be overwhelmed or disconnected…as Jesus gave us new life in abundance…and our understanding of Scripture should cause us to identify with the human experience and dignity of all human beings and creeds that do not violate Christ and the Decalogue.

The primary church is the Bride of Christ, His believers, united through His shepherds and centralized in His vicar, the Holy Father…The Holy Father is the sign of unity of all believers, who as I said, all ecclesiastics are responsible for the welfare of all people under their care. The Holy Father prays for the entire world. The bishop prays for all people living within his diocese, a pastor his designated parish.

So we recognize the presence of Christ in all human beings Who waits at the door fo every heart…that what one does to one’s neighbor is done as well to Christ.

A believer in the Catholic Church represents the Catholic Church. If you have only one Catholic who affirms the Creed and communion of faith in Spokane, Washington, one can truly say the Catholic Church is exists and is present in Spokane, Washington even if one Catholic is there.

The local diocese is the local Church. The bishop oversees the welfare of his people. He represents the faith to the Holy Father. He cares for the welfare of all souls entrusted to him within his boundary.

The superficial level is a church building.

So the true faith exists in the heart…one remaining individual in one diocese in effects validates the existence of the Church in that diocese, even without a bishop…

So we may go to Mass based on the faith in Christ…and it doesn’t matter if there are other people there are not, or we talk to them or not. The parish does exist without people even knowing each other…so if you see very social parishes it is the reflection of the type of people in there…you can almost say a parish is more extrovert or another, more introvert.

So a Church gathering does not require social gathering other than coming to gether publicly…not for ourselves, but to affirm our faith to the world --any one can enter into a church to witness the Mass --…to affirm our common faith in Jesus Christ.

Thus, the Catholic Church is essentially mystical. We may go to church as an assembly. We may not know each other. But when we come to worship, we are coming together…we may look like we are immobile in our pews…but it is the Holy Spirit carrying us together closer each day to heaven.

Thus the Mass is also indeed like a mystical carriage as well carrying us forward in the Lord.
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thank you KathleenGee for this very well explained post. 👍
 
flyonthewall said:
Yes, and the Jewish leaders that wanted Jesus crucified could make similar accusations about Him.
Jesus was no wine bibber, agent of satan, rebel rouser, treasonous malcontent or any thing else that was thrown at Him. Similarly, Joseph was none of your accusations either. I know better.
All your accusation have been refuted in the past. If all you look for is the negative, then that is all you will believe
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One can turn a blind eye and refute the truth all they want: It still remains that historical records reveal the truth of Joseph Smith’s untoward and unChristian attitude and behaviour.
 
ParkerD said:
Flyonthewall and other readers here,

Thanks for noting this.

I might as well add something else that should be obvious to any United States citizen:

The United States constitution was designed to protect personal freedoms of its citizens, including the right to a fair trial in a fair court of law, with representation.

When anyone seeks to disrupt or negate those rights by comments that make it seem that the mob actions against Joseph Smith were “lawful” or were in accordance with the United States constitution, then such a person making such a comment has trampled on the United States constitution, in my book. They are coming from a different place than Christianity or ethics or the idea of the protection of freedom and the principle that a person is innocent until proven guilty in a legitimate court of law where both sides are heard and a judge makes a judgement according to the laws voted upon by a lawful state legislature.
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And yet in heaven there is only One Judge. We were given the abiltiy to discern the truth of God from the untruths of men.
 
Thanks, CEM…

It was wordy…

St. Catherine of Siena warned us not to look at scandals. We all have sin in us. Right now there are reports coming out that there were a number of false accusations of clergy abuse in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles…and I assume more elsewhere. It has been hard being a Catholic this past decade…but to persevere in the faith we have been give is the place to be…and to stay on our faithwalk irregardless.

There are always going to be the chaff with the wheat…Our Lord warned us that.

What we focus on is our beliefs in the Holy Spirit, and our practices, irregardless of the behavior of those around us. That is part of the challenge to persevere to the end. It is focusing on the apostolic faith, the nourishment of the sacraments, and going forward in the Lord, His strength and power, learning to depend on Him more, and not ourselves.
 
Why did joseph smith have such a huge collection of wives, and not even have children with very many of them?
 
e46m3 said:
Why did joseph smith have such a huge collection of wives, and not even have children with very many of them?
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Luck. 😉

Just a joke that I couldn’t resist. 🙂 I really want to add on to this thread, but I don’t think I have anything to add…
 
Welcome, Jill!

That was a very interesting question in regards to how many Smith had.
 
e46m3 said:
Why did joseph smith have such a huge collection of wives, and not even have children with very many of them?
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Mormon response: these were “spiritual” marriages, ie, never consumated

He was married to a few women who were already married. Some were pregnant at the time he married them. Others who may have become pregnant would have raised the children as children of the first husband. Younger women/girls, sent away to live with relatives while pregnant. Women who became pregnant by Smith married other men and raised the child as his. And then there was Dr. John C. Bennett, a close friend and confident of Smith’s, who reported that he could cause abortion with perfect safety to the mother.

“Now, this paints Bennett as a scoundrel, according to Hyrum. But Hyrum doesn’t go quite far enough. Bennett was also performing abortions for Joseph” Testimony of Sarah Pratt, wife of Apostle Orson Pratt
 
JillNicole said:
I thought marriages had to be consummated in order to be valid.
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Yes, they do.

Mormons go into double think on this. You’ll see it.

One aspect of marriage is intimacy, but, they’ll site difficult circumstances of marriage as being sexless. Smith’s marriages, and their idea that God is polygamous, are two of these instances.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Yes, they do.
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Okay. . .so there are two possibilities I see now.
  1. Joseph Smith wasn’t truly married to these women, and therefore…wasn’t truly polygamous? :confused:
  2. Mormons are trying to ignore the fact that the marriages were consummated so as to make Smith look a bit better.
 
You should also be aware that your basic Mormon never researches Mormon history, outside of what their church teaches them.

Anyone who does, and finds historical fact that isn’t “faith promoting”, ie, paints Smith in a good light, is viewed as anti-Mormon.

Any person who questions, and doesn’t just read their BoM, and immediately ask to be baptized in 6 weeks, is viewed as anti-Mormon.

If you are treading around a Mormon you love, you’re headed for dangerous waters with these sort of facts.

Good luck.
 
JillNicole said:
Okay. . .so there are two possibilities I see now.
  1. Joseph Smith wasn’t truly married to these women, and therefore…wasn’t truly polygamous? :confused:
  2. Mormons are trying to ignore the fact that the marriages were consummated so as to make Smith look a bit better.
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That’s about the size of it, though, Mormon double think will mix the two together in ways never thought possible.

Some Mormons have no idea that he was married to more women than his first wife Emma.

If you go to the LDS website josephsmith.com, which is owned and run by the Mormon Church, there is not word one about any of his marriages but to Emma.
 
RebeccaJ said:
That’s about the size of it, though, Mormon double think will mix the two together in ways never thought possible.

Some Mormons have no idea that he was married to more women than his first wife Emma.

If you go to the LDS website josephsmith.com, which is owned and run by the Mormon Church, there is not word one about any of his marriages but to Emma.
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Oh, the infamous Mormon double think…thinking me into circles since 2010.

I just don’t understand how anyone could believe in something so shady…I’m not trying to insult anyone. It’s just…I know the founder of my church was Jesus Christ. Nothing shady about Him; He’s the Son of God. Joseph Smith…not so much.

I guess it’s all about faith. Mormons have faith that Joseph Smith was honest and right, just like we Catholics have faith that Jesus never left the Church. It’s all about faith…
 
Didn’t a number of JS’s wives sign affidavits about their relations with JS in defense of polygamy being started by JS and not BY to counter what the RLDS claimed?
 
JillNicole said:
Oh, the infamous Mormon double think…thinking me into circles since 2010.

I just don’t understand how anyone could believe in something so shady…I’m not trying to insult anyone. It’s just…I know the founder of my church was Jesus Christ. Nothing shady about Him; He’s the Son of God. Joseph Smith…not so much.

I guess it’s all about faith. Mormons have faith that Joseph Smith was honest and right, just like we Catholics have faith that Jesus never left the Church. It’s all about faith…
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Agreed, as long as we’re talking about Faith, and not doubt masked as “faith”, or, believing something for the sake of believing it and calling it “faith”.

The Catholic Church doesn’t ask us to do either of these things.

Yes, we have Faith in Jesus Christ and His Church, but we have evidence and experience that supports that Faith.

The Mormon view of a “great apostasy” is a conspiracy theory, not Faith. (That is my not so humble opinion. 😃 )
 
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