Mormans and polygamy

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What is more important the law of the land or the law of god? A Mormon would surely argue that the USA is in error in outlawing polygamy.
Practicing polygamy is not a necessary rite of the gospel, like baptism or Eucharist. You don’t have to practice polygamy in order to be saved. In the days when it was allowed by the Mormons, only about 5% of the Mormons (as far as I recall) practiced it. You can’t be a Mormon without being baptized, but you can be a Mormon without practicing polygamy. That is the difference. So if the law prohibits it, then we will abide by the law.
Secondly, are Mormons actively lobbying for Restoration of polygamy based on said error, especially if this is a Judeo Christian Nation?
I don’t believe they are. Initially when it was outlawed in the United States, the Church did try to overturn the law; but when the final ruling was made by the Constitutional Court, the Church couldn’t take it any further, and had no options left but to obey the law.
And who do you blame for outlawing polygamy in America and elsewhere, the Christians and the faiths that inform their conscience or the Liberal types?
I don’t blame anybody. Any government has the right to determine the laws governing marriage within their jurisdictions; and if that is what they want to do, then that is what they want to do. When the kingdom of God is established, then it will be governed by God’s law, not man’s law.
Thirdly, why would you EXCOMMUNICATE a Latter Day Saint for living out the theology of the church? You state that you have no abandoned that theology.
Because the Church is a house of order, not of confusion. When the leadership makes a decision on something, the rest of the Church must follow, otherwise everybody will be doing their own thing.
Fourth, is Polygamy allowed in Israel, the land of the Jews and Judasim, The spirtual and god given homeland of gods chosen people?
I am not familiar with the civil law in Israel; but as far as I know polygamy is not practiced in Israel at the present time. But I could be wrong. I don’t know what would happen if some hard line orthodox Jew decided to marry more than one wife, citing the Torah as the legal basis of his action!
 
…The reason why it (polygamy) was stopped was because it was declared unlawful by the US government. We also believe that we should abide by the law of the land. When the US Constitutional Court declared it unlawful, we complied with the law. We haven’t abandoned the theology of it, as expressed in the above paragraph; but we discontinued the practice to comply with the law of the land…
Does this same logic apply to abortion? Do Mormons accept Roe v. Wade as having decided the abortion question in the same way as polygamy? Is abortion different because refraining from marrying additional wives harms no one?
 
Does this same logic apply to abortion? Do Mormons accept Roe v. Wade as having decided the abortion question in the same way as polygamy? Is abortion different because refraining from marrying additional wives harms no one?
I am not familiar with that particular case, or how it affects the law as far as abortion is concerned. But the Mormon position on abortion is clear. We believe abortion is a sin, and should not be practiced, except in cases of rape or incest, or when the mother’s life is judged to be in danger by competent medical authority. Voluntary abortion is for other reasons can lead to excommunication by the LDS Church.
 
II am curious CEM, which heretical doctrines are found in the Book of Mormon? If you cannot provide such examples in the Book of Mormon, why on earth would you state such a thing?

There is such vast difference between knowledge of a subject and repeating the fallacy of others. As my mother always taught me, “if you don’t know what you are talking about, hold your tongue.” To speak from ignorance while feigning knowledge causes others to doubt all that you say. The problem is that you have truth to speak; please don’t bury it with such inane statements.

The Book of Mormon is fairly innocuous from doctrinal position. The only doctrine in it that would cause a Catholic to reject is its declaration that all children that die do not need to be baptized because they are covered by the atonement of Jesus Christ.
Yes, except for its venomous attack on the Catholic Church and its irrational ban on infant baptism; it seems to be an orthodox book. A book contrary to Smith and Young’s later doctrines; which are not Christian.
 
Yes, except for its venomous attack on the Catholic Church and its irrational ban on infant baptism; it seems to be an orthodox book. A book contrary to Smith and Young’s later doctrines; which are not Christian.
You are right on this one. 🙂

This is the reason why I keep calling the BoM a “Baptist Book”. 😉

Although myself and my brothers in sisters in my Baptist Church don’t attack the CC!

Esdra
 
I wasn’t aware the the RLDS ever allowed polygamy. They denied (still do?) that Smith was ever polygamous.
Only the most conservative or “Restorationists” believe Joseph never practiced polygamy. The “moderate” RLDS most in the CoC…and the First Presidency accept his participation in polygamy.

Emma wanted to shield her children from the scandal…so she blamed the practice originating with Brigham Young I believe.
 
You are right on this one. 🙂

This is the reason why I keep calling the BoM a “Baptist Book”. 😉

Although myself and my brothers in sisters in my Baptist Church don’t attack the CC!

Esdra
I think the BoM is more “Cambellite” than Baptist.🙂
 
I think the BoM is more “Cambellite” than Baptist.🙂
Could be. Although I got to know that Rigdon (?) was a Baptist pastor. And it is assumed that Rigdon (or was it someone else of JS friends?) wrote the “theological parts” of the BoM.

Esdra
 
Could be. Although I got to know that Rigdon (?) was a Baptist pastor. And it is assumed that Rigdon (or was it someone else of JS friends?) wrote the “theological parts” of the BoM.

Esdra
I believe it was Sidney’s congregation…Campbellite…that joined the new movement. Some believe it was Rigdon that formulated the theology of the BoM…he was Campbellite…the original church founded in 1830 called itself the “Church of Christ”…but in the Kirtland years changed it to the “Church of the Latter Day Saints” as the “Church of Christ” was already being used by the Campbellites.
 
Here is a definition of “martyr” from the Dictionary:

Now the dictionary disagrees with your definition.
Joseph willingly gave himself up, knowing that he would be killed.
no he didn’t flyonthwall,

Joseph got hold of a weapon, and rather than die passively for his “beliefs” like TRUE martyrs, he went out with guns blazing murdering two men in the process. THAT is not the definition of a martyr. Look at TRUE martyrs’ deaths. My definition upholds that of the dictionary’s.
 
I believe it was Sidney’s congregation…Campbellite…that joined the new movement. Some believe it was Rigdon that formulated the theology of the BoM…he was Campbellite…the original church founded in 1830 called itself the “Church of Christ”…but in the Kirtland years changed it to the “Church of the Latter Day Saints” as the “Church of Christ” was already being used by the Campbellites.
Hm, then I am wrong. I thought Sidney Rigdon was Baptist. Anyway.
Judging from the theology the BoM is in any case very close to the Baptist one.

I guess we’re both right, as he WAS a Baptist preacher, as well as in the Campbellite Movement. 😉

Esdra
 
None of the scriptures you have cited speak against polygamy.
Then you close your eyes. For Jesus said ONE man and ONE woman - since the beginning it was meant to be so. The patriarchs practiced polygamy and divorce because of the desire for more children, and God allowed it AT THAT TIME because of the hardness of men’s hearts. Jesus, who is God incarnate, set the record straight and made no qualms that those who do not follow His ordinances (fornicators, adulterers, thieves, murderers and such) WILL not inherit God’s kingdom (they will go to hell).

Jesus also never came straight out and declared that peodophilia is sinful and not allowed, yet all of us know that it is condemned and goes against the laws of God.
 
The thing you have to realize with the media is you should always check the facts with the source and the people opposing the source, then, after you’ve gone through all that mumbo jumbo… find out the truth!
 
no he didn’t flyonthwall,

Joseph got hold of a weapon, and rather than die passively for his “beliefs” like TRUE martyrs, he went out with guns blazing murdering two men in the process. THAT is not the definition of a martyr. Look at TRUE martyrs’ deaths. My definition upholds that of the dictionary’s.
Here is a definition of “martyr” from the Dictionary:
Now the dictionary disagrees with your definition.
Joseph willingly gave himself up, knowing that he would be killed.
Agreed, CEM. And may I add, the Catholic martyrs peacefully surrendered to their executioners, and humbly accepted their fate. A fitting example would be Joan of Arc and St. Cecilia, whose body has never decomposed.

In the account of JS’s death, he did not. I get the sense he wanted to escape to continue his polygamous or adulterous ways. Sorry. Fly…no matter how you massage it, there is a difference in the traits or humility of the true martyrs vs JS.
 
Just think about Jesus’ death and what it means to be a Christian. A nuanced view could cause a loss of a view of the forest for the trees.
 
Interestingly, the Muslim religion was founded the same way as the Mormon religion. Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith claimed to have been visited by an angel. Both were illiterate men. Both believed in polygamy. Both made up their own “sacred texts” that taught new and heretical “doctrines”/practices. (the Koran and Book of Mormon). What is also of importance is that Mohammed at first believed this “angel” was Satan and was very afraid. Yet his wife convinced him otherwise.

blessings,
CEM
I am curious CEM, which heretical doctrines are found in the Book of Mormon? If you cannot provide such examples in the Book of Mormon, why on earth would you state such a thing?

There is such vast difference between knowledge of a subject and repeating the fallacy of others. As my mother always taught me, “if you don’t know what you are talking about, hold your tongue.” To speak from ignorance while feigning knowledge causes others to doubt all that you say. The problem is that you have truth to speak; please don’t bury it with such inane statements.

The Book of Mormon is fairly innocuous from doctrinal position. The only doctrine in it that would cause a Catholic to reject is its declaration that all children that die do not need to be baptized because they are covered by the atonement of Jesus Christ.

I KNOW what I am talking about. Have you researched any of it? I also have a first edition of the Book of Mormon - the orginal that was given to me by my ex-Mormon friend who is now deceased. She was like a mother to me and a grandmother to my children. She taught me much and I have much material.

You want quotes - I’ll give you quotes: 👍

For example: In 2 Nephi 5:21, “hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherfore as they were white, and exceedinly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause skin of blackness to come upon them.”

This is where they get their teaching ***that those cursed by God will get black skin and those who are God’s “chosen” people are white skinned. ***They were forbidden to intermarry. If you are white and become cursed by God, your skin will turn black. If a dark-skinned person becomes Mormon, then their skin was supposed to turn white. The earlier Mormons were suprised when this didn’t occur when the first few Native American Indians and blacks converted and their skin didn’t miraculously turn whtie. So they eventually canged their thinking on this and concluded that by intermarriage among the Mormons, down through the ages, eventually the darkened skin would cease and only white would then be predominant.

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, pg. 110, “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race: If the whtie man who belongs to the chosen seeds mixes his blood with the seed of Cain the penalty under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so.”

*July 17th, 1947, statement from the first presidency *(which is the Mormon prophet and his tow counselors): "From the days of the prophet Joseph Smith even until now, it has been the doctrine of the church never questioned by any of the church leaders that the Negros are not entitled to the full blessings fo the gospel."

1852, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, said in his address, “The first presidency, the twelve, the high council, the bishopric, and all the elders of Israel – supoose we summons them to appear here, and there declare that it is right to mingle our seed with the black race of Cain. That they shall come in with us and be partakers with us of all the blessings that God has given us. On that very day and hour we should do that, the Priesthood is taken form the (Mormon) **church and the kingdom of God is left to its fate. The moment we consent to mingle wit the seed of Cain the **(Mormon) church must go to destrucion. We should receive the curse which has been placed upon the seed of Cain and nevermore be numbered with the children of Adam who are heirs to the Priesthood until that curse be removed.”

In 1958, the Mormon apostle Bruce McConkie wrote the comprehensive work called “Mormon Doctrine” and said this: “Negro’s in this life are denied the Priesthood. Under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them.”

This is against the Word of God in the Holy Scriptures, for the salvation that Jesus offered belongs to ALL MEN should they accept it and does not forbid anyone regardless of race/color of skin.

There are many heresies taught by Mormon leaders, and anyone who takes up the Holy Word of God (Bible) and compares Jesus’ teachings and that of the Apostles whom Jesus put in charge/ordained, to that of Mormonisms teachings, you will see teachings opposed to that of Jesus’ teachings.

They teach that God is not ONE (do not believe in the Trinity): they teach that the Father is one god, that Jesus is a separate, lesser god, and that the Holy Spirit is another god. Three individual and separate “gods” and that they each have a physical body (except the Holy Spirit). Doctrine and Covenants, 1985, Sec. 130:22, p. 265 ,one of the four sacred volumes of Mormonism declares, "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones… THAT is a heresy!! See what Jesus said:

Jesus said, “God is a spirit…” (John 4:24).

to be continued…
 
continued…

Mormonism claims that God was once a man. In a sermon
delivered in 1844 Joseph Smith said:
“I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil. God was once a man like us and dwelt on earth, the same as Jesus Christ did.” McConkie, Bruce, “Mormon Doctrine,” p. 321, as found in Fast Facts on False Teachings, Carlson &
Decker, Harvest House Pub., 1994, p. 170

“The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man.” Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35

“Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God [anyhow]–three in one and one in three. . .It is curious organization… All are crammed into one God according to sectarianism (Christian faith). It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God–he would be a giant or a monster.” The Teachings Joseph Smith, p.372

“**God used to be a man on another planet,” ** Mormon Doctrine, p. 321.
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 345


YET! The Bible says: **“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” 1 John 5:7 **

**Mormon heresy teaches that men may become gods. **
"According to Mormon doctrine, man is working through a four-step process:
  1. he is originally an intelligence;
  2. then he is fashioned as preexistent spirit being;
  3. next he is able to come to earth and inhabit a body when human sexual
    intercourse provides a residence, and finally,
  4. man continues the process on earth of working toward
    exaltation or godhead."
This is known as the doctrine of “eternal progression.” In Doctrine and Covenants, we read the following:
“Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.”

An oft-quoted statement, from within Mormonism, attributed to Lorenzo Snow, the fifth president of LDS says: “As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.”

Those who do not believe in the essentila Christian doctrine of the Trinity are not Christian no matter what they may call themselves. The cousel of Nicea, in 325 AD addresssed such a heresy of Arius (Arianism). To believe otherwise it to follow a flast Christ, as was warned in the Bible:

2 Cor 11:3-5 (KJV) “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.” The Mormons have accepted another spirit (Moroni) who preached another gospel (Book of Mormon) **disquised as an angel of light!!! **

to be continued…
 
continued…

Gordon B. Hinckley, (died 2008), was the 15th President of the MOrmon Church, said in the late 1990’s, (LDS Church News, June 20th), “In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, (Hinkley says speaking of those outside the Mormon church), who say L.D.S. do not believe in the traditional Christ, he responds, 'No I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they (Christians) speak is not the Chrsit of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this dispensation of teh fullness of times’.”

So we see that out of the mouth of the Mormon’s own 15th President and thus prophet, Mormons would admit and claim that they worship a different Jesus than the rest of Christians do. **They worship a different Jesus!! **Reread the above Scripture passage and its warnings!! (2 Cor 11:3-5)

More heresies:

**“God resides near a star called Kolob,” **Pearl of Great Price, pages 34-35; Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 428

Yet the Bible says:

“Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool: where is the house that ye build unto Me? and where is the place of My rest?” Isaiah 66:1

“For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, …” Isaiah 57:15

God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus,” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857; vol. 8, p. 115

However, the Bible says:

“Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.” Matthew 1:22-23

“To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.” Luke 1:27

The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children;** it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." **Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8: p. 115

Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers” Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 547

The Bible teaches:

“But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.” **Matthew 1:20 **
“Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” Luke 1:34-35

“Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.” Hebrews 7:3

There are soooo many more heresies, but this should suffice. Your rash judgment of me is unwarranted.

blessings,
CEM
 
I am pretty sure that arrange-marriages were also the norm among the Jews from whom we have the Bible!

Esdra
Yes, ancient Jewish customs determined that when a man sought a wife, he would go to his own father first. The father would then meet with the prospective bride’s father and they would determine the “bride price”. The female had no say. After a year’s engagement, where the groom would be preparing an addition to the house (a room), and the bride would be preparing her necessities for married life, it was the father of the groom who determined the time and date of the wedding - no one would know the day or time - only the father!. He would announce to the son to go get his bride, and the son and his groomsmen would blow a trumpet and proceed through the town’s street, signalling the time of the wedding (feast) had arrived. The trumpet would be heard throughout the town, and the bride would get her bridesmaids and wait in preparation. She would be veiled and the veil only lifted AFTER consummation of the marriage.

CEM
 
I am not familiar with the civil law in Israel; but as far as I know polygamy is not practiced in Israel at the present time. But I could be wrong. I don’t know what would happen if some hard line orthodox Jew decided to marry more than one wife, citing the Torah as the legal basis of his action!
Polygamy was outlawed in the 11th century by the Jewish race, but was never really practiced by the population. (Wives and children cost money!! ;))
 
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