Mormans and polygamy

[CEM5]

*Quote:
Originally Posted by JHow
Does this same logic apply to abortion? Do Mormons accept Roe v. Wade as having decided the abortion question in the same way as polygamy? Is abortion different because refraining from marrying additional wives harms no one? *

I am not familiar with that particular case, or how it affects the law as far as abortion is concerned. But the Mormon position on abortion is clear. We believe abortion is a sin, and should not be practiced, except in cases of rape or incest, or when the mother’s life is judged to be in danger by competent medical authority. Voluntary abortion is for other reasons can lead to excommunication by the LDS Church.

And yet the ONLY Church that does not allow abortion for ANY reason is the Catholic Church - that same one established by Jesus upon the Rock (Peter) and the foundation of the Apostles.

Ectopic pregnancies would kill the mother along with the developing baby, so in order to save the mother life’s, since this pregnancy is not going to progress except cause the death of two persons, the developing life is removed. This is not an abortion, but the saving of the mother’s life with no other alternate outcome viable.

Why ANY other denomination would permit MURDER of innocent babies just because of the sin of another is outrageous!!! The baby is innocent, is a separate person from the mother and deserves a chance at life just as any and all persons are entitled to life. There is NO excuse to murder a baby because of rape or incest. That just compounds the evil perpetrated and makes the mother an accessory and partaker of murder. A VERY grave sin!!

 

[KathleenGee]

Spoke with my Jewish client today, who was born in Europe, quite sophisticated, and recognized therapist…her head resides at Stanford University in California. She provides work in her own Jewish community in holding on to their ‘unique’ culture, as she describes it, and composes spiritual reflections for her congregation.

I asked her today what the Jewish people think of the lost tribe of Jews in America…she asked me to clarify…I asked if she knew about this Jewish tribe that lived in America a long time ago that the Mormons draw on…and her response was a ludicrous…“noooo…”

I asked her if Jews practiced polygamy in their culture…and I recall the Old Testament writings advising a man to remain with the wife of his youth, the treasure a man has in a good wife, etc…and she said the Jews were not into polygamy…

I have yet to read of any Jewish man having multiple wives…King Solomon…and very early times…but how many, really?

 

[Esdra]

Spoke with my Jewish client today, who was born in Europe, quite sophisticated, and recognized therapist…her head resides at Stanford University in California. She provides work in her own Jewish community in holding on to their ‘unique’ culture, as she describes it, and composes spiritual reflections for her congregation.

I asked her today what the Jewish people think of the lost tribe of Jews in America…she asked me to clarify…I asked if she knew about this Jewish tribe that lived in America a long time ago that the Mormons draw on…and her response was a ludicrous…“noooo…”

I asked her if Jews practiced polygamy in their culture…and I recall the Old Testament writings advising a man to remain with the wife of his youth, the treasure a man has in a good wife, etc…and she said the Jews were not into polygamy…

I have yet to read of any Jewish man having multiple wives…King Solomon…and very early times…but how many, really?

You are great! Love the idea asking a Jewess if she knows about Jews living in America! LOL

But have you also read the statement by CEM5?

Polygamy was outlawed in the 11th century by the Jewish race, but was never really practiced by the population. (Wives and children cost money!! )

So Jews DID practice polygamy, just like some Muslims do nowadays.

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

Which Churches are you referring to? Baptists or other “fundamental” Evangelicals?

Esdra

 

[KathleenGee]

Esdra,

No, the Jews did not practice polygamy…I saw CEM5’s reference that it was eventually outlawed by the 11th century, but the basic practice among most was not.

There is great upholding in the Old Testament of the husband loving and remaining faithful to the wife of his youth.

My Jewess friend’s response was in the sentiment that such a concept was a clear no…and her sentiment that such an idea was off the wall…they would tend to just spend their time pursuing their professions.

 

[Esdra]

Yes, like always, a general statement was made without thinking about the Orthodox.

I guess you could even say ALL Orthodox Churches forbid abortion?

 

[KathleenGee]

A further note on polygamy…there is also this image throughout Salvation History of the Lord as Groom and Israel as the Bride…His fidelity…

Look at Mormonism’s early texts…I inadvertently ran into one at an LDS bookstore that came out of the 1840’s, and the statements against the Roman Church and the Protestant daughters…and how the Mormon religion is constantly changing. Thanks to Javl, I found out that there are more than one break away church.

A Protestant woman in my locale grew up in a Protestant, anti-Catholic family. She wanted to study early Christian beliefs. She got hold of materials from an ancient catechism.

She then wanted to learn more and finally approached a modern Catholic Catechism. She was very surprised to learn how much the Catholic Church continues to teach the same beliefs, and became a Catholic.

Christ remains faithful to our Church. It is our free choice if we want to remain faithful to the beliefs He has given us through His apostles and early Church fathers…so we can’t brag…it is actually grace from Christ that allows us to cooperate with Him…our ongoing journey of conversion.

 

[Esdra]

A further note on polygamy…there is also this image throughout Salvation History of the Lord as Groom and Israel as the Bride…His fidelity…

Look at Mormonism’s early texts…I inadvertently ran into one at an LDS bookstore that came out of the 1840’s, and the statements against the Roman Church and the Protestant daughters…and how the Mormon religion is constantly changing. Thanks to Javl, I found out that there are more than one break away church.

Yes, there are in fact many. Ranging from the Fundamentalist LDS Church which practices polygamy to very liberal ones that see JS jr as a fallen prophet!

A Protestant woman in my locale grew up in a Protestant, anti-Catholic family. She wanted to study early Christian beliefs. She got hold of materials from an ancient catechism.

She then wanted to learn more and finally approached a modern Catholic Catechism. She was very surprised to learn how much the Catholic Church continues to teach the same beliefs, and became a Catholic.

Christ remains faithful to our Church. It is our free choice if we want to remain faithful to the beliefs He has given us through His apostles and early Church fathers…so we can’t brag…it is actually grace from Christ that allows us to cooperate with Him…our ongoing journey of conversion.

 

[vsedriver]

I have yet to read of any Jewish man having multiple wives…King Solomon…and very early times…but how many, really?

Did Solomon have multiple wives or one wife and multiple consorts?

 

[KathleenGee]

About King Solomon…we refer to Scripture…but to say he represented the norm is really what I am trying to point out here…

I recall King David who was married, and how he committed adultery with another man’s wife…and had the husband killed…not good.

So although there are exceptions for every rule, the Scriptures have significant examples of one man and one woman, beginning with Adam and Eve.

 

[Lisel]

Spoke with my Jewish client today, who was born in Europe, quite sophisticated, and recognized therapist…her head resides at Stanford University in California. She provides work in her own Jewish community in holding on to their ‘unique’ culture, as she describes it, and composes spiritual reflections for her congregation.

I asked her today what the Jewish people think of the lost tribe of Jews in America…she asked me to clarify…I asked if she knew about this Jewish tribe that lived in America a long time ago that the Mormons draw on…and her response was a ludicrous…“noooo…”

I asked her if Jews practiced polygamy in their culture…and I recall the Old Testament writings advising a man to remain with the wife of his youth, the treasure a man has in a good wife, etc…and she said the Jews were not into polygamy…

I have yet to read of any Jewish man having multiple wives…King Solomon…and very early times…but how many, really?

It is not uncommon in Yemen

 

[Lisel]

Did Solomon have multiple wives or one wife and multiple consorts?

Yes.

Abraham: Yes
Jacob: Yes

 

[KathleenGee]

But polygamy is basically not the practice of Jews across the board…I have never met a polygamous Jew…never heard of any living in my life time and I am old.

 

[flyonthewall]

no he didn’t flyonthwall,

Joseph got hold of a weapon, and rather than die passively for his “beliefs” like TRUE martyrs, he went out with guns blazing murdering two men in the process. THAT is not the definition of a martyr. Look at TRUE martyrs’ deaths. My definition upholds that of the dictionary’s.

Guns blazing? Murdering two men in the process? In your dreams.
Joseph sealed his testimony with his blood. He died for what he believed in and would not be swayed not matter how much he was persecuted.

Joseph did fire a gun, but it was after his brother had already been shot and killed. According you, Joseph is a murderer for trying to defend himself and those he was with.
According to you also, 3 shots is “guns blazing”. I do not think you know what that phrase means.

Two men were murdered huh? Have you researched who these men were?
John Wills, William Voras, and a man named Gallaher, were wounded at the jail that night. Wills was shot in the arm, Voras was shot in the face,and Galaher was shot in the shoulder. These men were arrested for being part of the mob and put on trial so they were NOT murdered by Joseph, in fact they lived long enough to receive a new suit as a reward for their part in the murder of Joseph and his brother.

I realize you may only research one side of things, but it would do you well to get both sides before perpetuating falsehoods.

 

[pablope]

Guns blazing? Murdering two men in the process? In your dreams.
Joseph sealed his testimony with his blood. He died for what he believed in and would not be swayed not matter how much he was persecuted.

Joseph did fire a gun, but it was after his brother had already been shot and killed. According you, Joseph is a murderer for trying to defend himself and those he was with.
According to you also, 3 shots is “guns blazing”. I do not think you know what that phrase means.

Two men were murdered huh? Have you researched who these men were?
John Wills, William Voras, and a man named Gallaher, were wounded at the jail that night. Wills was shot in the arm, Voras was shot in the face,and Galaher was shot in the shoulder. These men were arrested for being part of the mob and put on trial so they were NOT murdered by Joseph, in fact they lived long enough to receive a new suit as a reward for their part in the murder of Joseph and his brother.

I realize you may only research one side of things, but it would do you well to get both sides before perpetuating falsehoods.

It does not detract from the fact that JS armed himself (and his brother was also armed?) and fired back, as opposed to raising his hand to indicate he was unarmed, hands raised in surrender, or waiving a white flag, in which case, those men may have held their fire, and would not have fired in self defense. Not an indication of someone willing do die humbly for his beliefs, and very much against the typical reliqious martyr who willingly surrenders himself and goes to be executed willingly. I do not find this in the account of JS death.

Sorry, Fly…

 

[flyonthewall]

It does not detract from the fact that JS armed himself (and his brother was also armed?) and fired back, as opposed to raising his hand to indicate he was unarmed, hands raised in surrender, or waiving a white flag, in which case, those men may have held their fire, and would not have fired in self defense. Not an indication of someone willing do die humbly for his beliefs, and very much against the typical reliqious martyr who willingly surrenders himself and goes to be executed willingly. I do not find this in the account of JS death.

Sorry, Fly…

In what world do you live in?
These men that fired in “self defense” as you say, had already killed Hyrum Smith…and you really think that all Joseph had to do was raise his hands and they would have stopped? What in the world do you think they mobbed the jail for?

Joseph turned himself in knowing he would be killed. He could have continued to elude his hunters, but he went willingly to his death. The fact that he tried to defend his life and the life of those around him, AFTER his brother was already shot and killed does not take away from him willingly walking into this death trap.

Joseph’s death fits the description of a martyr - one who is killed for his beliefs rather than abandon them.

 

[pablope]

In what world do you live in?
These men that fired in “self defense” as you say, had already killed Hyrum Smith…and you really think that all Joseph had to do was raise his hands and they would have stopped? What in the world do you think they mobbed the jail for?

Joseph turned himself in knowing he would be killed. He could have continued to elude his hunters, but he went willingly to his death. The fact that he tried to defend his life and the life of those around him, AFTER his brother was already shot and killed does not take away from him willingly walking into this death trap.

Joseph’s death fits the description of a martyr - one who is killed for his beliefs rather than abandon them.

What world do I live in? A world of truth and where truth is not distorted.

Here is an independent account of Smith’s final day (excerpts…)

As the mob was approaching, the jailer became nervous, and informed Smith of the group. In a letter dated July 10, 1844, one of the jailers wrote that Smith, expecting the Nauvoo Legion, said “Don’t trouble yourself … they’ve come to rescue me.”…Joseph Smith, Taylor, and Richards attempted to defend themselves. Taylor and Richards attempted to use walking sticks in order to deflect the guns as they were thrust inside the cell, from behind the door. Smith used a small pepper-box pistol that Cyrus Wheelock had given him when Wheelock had visited the jail earlier that day.[15] Three of the six barrels misfired, but the other three shots injured at least three of the attackers…After using all of the shots in his pistol, Joseph Smith made his way towards the window. As he prepared to jump down, Richards reported that he was shot twice in the back and a third bullet, fired from a musket on the ground outside, hit him in the chest.[1]

source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.

And this is what I know of a real martyr would have said or done the following: The martyr would have bravely faced the mob…telling the jail guards to tell the mob to spare the lives of his friends and would go willingly…for he is the one the mob really want…he would tell his friends not to fight back…and not to attempt a rescue…he would have faced the mob bravely…and the martyr would have prayed for the forgiveness of the mob from the Lord Almighty, of those who came for him, so that it would not be held against them.

From the account of above, it seems Smith was even expecting to be rescued, had armed himself, shot at the mob, jumped a window to escape…did not willingly go…had not asked for the forgiveness from the Lord of what the mob was about to do…a Martyr…No. Only in your eyes, Fly.

 

[flyonthewall]

What world do I live in? A world of truth and where truth is not distorted.

Here is an independent account of Smith’s final day (excerpts…)

As the mob was approaching, the jailer became nervous, and informed Smith of the group. In a letter dated July 10, 1844, one of the jailers wrote that Smith, expecting the Nauvoo Legion, said “Don’t trouble yourself … they’ve come to rescue me.”…Joseph Smith, Taylor, and Richards attempted to defend themselves. Taylor and Richards attempted to use walking sticks in order to deflect the guns as they were thrust inside the cell, from behind the door. Smith used a small pepper-box pistol that Cyrus Wheelock had given him when Wheelock had visited the jail earlier that day.[15] Three of the six barrels misfired, but the other three shots injured at least three of the attackers…After using all of the shots in his pistol, Joseph Smith made his way towards the window. As he prepared to jump down, Richards reported that he was shot twice in the back and a third bullet, fired from a musket on the ground outside, hit him in the chest.[1]

source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.

And this is what I know of a real martyr would have said or done the following: The martyr would have bravely faced the mob…telling the jail guards to tell the mob to spare the lives of his friends and would go willingly…for he is the one the mob really want…he would tell his friends not to fight back…and not to attempt a rescue…he would have faced the mob bravely…and the martyr would have prayed for the forgiveness of the mob from the Lord Almighty, of those who came for him, so that it would not be held against them.

From the account of above, it seems Smith was even expecting to be rescued, had armed himself, shot at the mob, jumped a window to escape…did not willingly go…had not asked for the forgiveness from the Lord of what the mob was about to do…a Martyr…No. Only in your eyes, Fly.

What you believe about a martyr does not change the fact that Joseph was one. You have added all these other qualifications of being a martyr that were not there in the definition of the word.
You do not think he was a martyr because he did not fit your preconceived notion of what one is.
There were many who could not accept Jesus as the Messiah, the Savior, the King of the Jews, the Son of God…because He didn’t fit their preconceived notion of what He would be like either.

 

[Stephen168]

The only two people killed by the mob that day had weapons. No weapons, no death.

 

[Jerusha]

After Joseph Smith died, why did they bury him, then dig him up? Perhaps they were looking for a second messiah? I’ll give you a hint: he was still there.

Remember the Mormon distaste for the cross, and comparing it to a gun?

Fly, your very comparison indicates a trend in that direction.

Heber Grant’s journal reports that Joseph had ceased wearing his sacred underwear in his last days. Joseph’s god had told him to go west to the Rocky Mountains from Montrose. Instead, he returned to Nauvoo. Joseph had defied the teachings of his own book, in instituting polygamy. He had declared himself king, again defying the teachings of his own book. By Mormonism’s own teachings, how can they deny that he brought the wrath of God upon his own head?
On June 27, 1844, Joseph was murdered at the Carthage Jail, by local people, angry at Joseph’s dissemination of Masonic secrets, religious fraud, land fraud, a bid to become president of the United States, Mormon appropriation of the property of non-Mormons and dissenters, Mormon monopolization of the economy of the area, sexual exploits with their daughters and wives, and the destruction of a printing-press which had exposed the scandal.

Here is the other side of the story:
sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/IL/sign1844.htm