Mormans and polygamy

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Yes, like always, a general statement was made without thinking about the Orthodox.

I guess you could even say ALL Orthodox Churches forbid abortion?
Hi Esdra, (and others :))

I just assumed that you would know that those Churches are in ***full communion with the Holy See ***(under the Pope). They are part of the Catholic Church. Therefore, they are supportive and obedient to the doctrines. (Not saying every individual is - but those Churches are and uphold the teachings/doctrines).🙂

blessings,
CEM
 
Guns blazing? Murdering two men in the process? In your dreams.
Joseph sealed his testimony with his blood. He died for what he believed in and would not be swayed not matter how much he was persecuted.

Joseph did fire a gun, but it was after his brother had already been shot and killed. According you, Joseph is a murderer for trying to defend himself and those he was with.
According to you also, 3 shots is “guns blazing”. I do not think you know what that phrase means.

Two men were murdered huh? Have you researched who these men were?
John Wills, William Voras, and a man named Gallaher, were wounded at the jail that night. Wills was shot in the arm, Voras was shot in the face,and Galaher was shot in the shoulder. These men were arrested for being part of the mob and put on trial so they were NOT murdered by Joseph, in fact they lived long enough to receive a new suit as a reward for their part in the murder of Joseph and his brother.

I realize you may only research one side of things, but it would do you well to get both sides before perpetuating falsehoods.
I have researched it and historical accounts (“although cloudy” quote), determine that two men died as a result of Joseph Smith firing his six-shooter. I have read that one man, Townsend, died later as a result of his wound festering, that wouldn’t heal. Now, in any court of law, if death results later from that wound, even though not initially killed outright, that person is still charged with the murder of another since the death is the direct result of the wound caused by the bullet discharged by the murderer.

By the way, 5 men were arrested but were aquitted.

*Parley P. Pratt also has written:

A man named Townsend, living in Iowa, near Fort Madison, was one of the mob who assaulted and forced in the jail door. The pistol discharged by Joseph Smith wounded him in the arm, near the shoulder, and it continued to rot without healing until it was taken off and even then it would not heal.

About six months after he was shot Mrs. Lawn saw his arm and dressed it. He was then gradually rotting and dying with the wound. He stayed over night with Mrs. Lawn’s father, and groaned through the night without sleeping. He asked the old gentleman what he thought of Joseph Smith being a Prophet? He replied that he did not know. “Well,” said Townsend, “I know he was a Prophet of God! And, oh, that I had stayed at home and minded my own business, and then I would not have lost my life and been tormented with a guilty conscience, and with this dreadful wound, which none can heal!” He died two or three months afterwards, having literally rotted alive! (Pratt, 391.)

In the section of Pratt’s autobiography containing this account, Pratt also relates the supposed fate of other mob members who participated in the attack on the prophet. Pratt notes that these “particulars, and many others, were related to me by brother Beckwith previous to his death, and afterwards by his widow and father-in-law, and others who were conversant with them, and are believed to be correct.” (Ibid., 392.)*

Any way you try to say it, Joseph Smith’s actions were NOT those of a martyr.

peace of Christ,
CEM
 
What you believe about a martyr does not change the fact that Joseph was one. You have added all these other qualifications of being a martyr that were not there in the definition of the word.
You do not think he was a martyr because he did not fit your preconceived notion of what one is.
There were many who could not accept Jesus as the Messiah, the Savior, the King of the Jews, the Son of God…because He didn’t fit their preconceived notion of what He would be like either.
Actually, it is not a pre-conceived notion, Fly. And it is not an added qualification. If you really read on the lives of the Catholic saints who went into martyrdom for the Church and for the Lord, you will find a very common occurrence-giving willingly, dying in prayer, and asking for the forgiveness of their persecutors. These are very much how Christ was when he was arrested and when he was on the cross, so these martyrs were very Christ-like in their martyrdom. Now, compare and contrast these with that of Joseph Smith. Was he Christlike in his death, did he pray, ask for the forgiveness of his persecutors. If fact, it was the opposite. For a man who claimed to have restored the true religion established by Christ, I find it odd that he would not go down similarly-in prayer and very forgiving. Again, sorry, martyr Joseph Smith is not.
 
If anything, it was not clear that Joseph Smith died in the name of the Lord. He did not appear to die out of pure love for the Lord, but in some kind of dispute with his fellow men.
 
If one believes the original intent of the mob was to murder Joseph Smith and his brother, and only them; I see your point. If one believes the original intent of the mob was to extract some lesser form of violence, then the fact the Smiths had weapons would have driven the mob to murder/self defense. Because the mob did not murder Willard Richards, or John Taylor, I can’t believe the mob was intent on killing Mormons.

Smith’s brother seems to have been killed by accident, while the mob thought it was shooting open a locked door. And Joseph Smith was killed by a mob defending itself against deadly fire.

So, I revise my conclusion: If Joseph Smith had not had a weapon; I don’t think he would have died that day.
 
After Joseph Smith died, why did they bury him, then dig him up? Perhaps they were looking for a second messiah? I’ll give you a hint: he was still there.
This is a common tactic - make something up and attribute it to us.
Remember the Mormon distaste for the cross, and comparing it to a gun?
Fly, your very comparison indicates a trend in that direction.
Seeing as I am LDS and have no distaste for the cross, no I don’t remember it. More fabrications.
Heber Grant’s journal reports that Joseph had ceased wearing his sacred underwear in his last days. Joseph’s god had told him to go west to the Rocky Mountains from Montrose. Instead, he returned to Nauvoo. Joseph had defied the teachings of his own book, in instituting polygamy. He had declared himself king, again defying the teachings of his own book. By Mormonism’s own teachings, how can they deny that he brought the wrath of God upon his own head?
Oh the half truths in play here. You take bits of information fabricate your own story with them that does not resemble reality. I am hoping that you got this from other sources rather than being the author of them
On June 27, 1844, Joseph was murdered at the Carthage Jail, by local people, angry at Joseph’s dissemination of Masonic secrets, religious fraud, land fraud, a bid to become president of the United States, Mormon appropriation of the property of non-Mormons and dissenters, Mormon monopolization of the economy of the area, sexual exploits with their daughters and wives, and the destruction of a printing-press which had exposed the scandal.
This sounds like it was all pulled from anti-mormon sources…
Here is the other side of the story:
sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/IL/sign1844.htm
Speak of the devil…this is an avowed anti-mormon paper that is little more than a hate rag. I would not be surprised to find a story about Bat-boy in it and blame it on Joseph.
I find it interesting that you go to an anti-mormon source for “truth”.
That is comparable to going to anti-semite source to find out the “truth” about Jews.
 
If anything, it was not clear that Joseph Smith died in the name of the Lord. He did not appear to die out of pure love for the Lord, but in some kind of dispute with his fellow men.
One must evaluate the truth, validity and holiness of a religion by the truth, validity and holiness of it’s founder. Christianity, founded by the sinless, Holy Son of God Himself, present in the Holy Catholic Church. Died, without resistance for the sins of the entire human race, victor over Death itself.

Mormonism, founded by a very dubious character, involved in various nefarious schemes, guilty of serial adultery, megalomaniac, died in a gunfight while locked up for crimes against the state.
Which do you choose?
 
One must evaluate the truth, validity and holiness of a religion by the truth, validity and holiness of it’s founder. Christianity, founded by the sinless, Holy Son of God Himself, present in the Holy Catholic Church. Died, without resistance for the sins of the entire human race, victor over Death itself.

Mormonism, founded by a very dubious character, involved in various nefarious schemes, guilty of serial adultery, megalomaniac, died in a gunfight while locked up for crimes against the state.
Which do you choose?
The Church of Jesus Christ, both anciently and in latter-days, was founded by Jesus Christ.
 
The Church of Jesus Christ, both anciently and in latter-days, was founded by Jesus Christ.
Not so. The LDS organization was invented by Joseph Smith. I sincerely doubt that Jesus Christ would found a church that would fall into apostacy and basically maintain that His original mission was a failure. Mormonism is a false religion, based on the fantasies of Joseph Smith.
 
Joseph Smith’s restoration was one of violence, deceit, and fraud. BYoung slaughtered those settlers.

Remember, they encouraged POLYGAMY. Joseph Smith had 50 WIVES! Sinful.

This is not a church founded by Christ.
 
Not so. The LDS organization was invented by Joseph Smith. I sincerely doubt that Jesus Christ would found a church that would fall into apostacy and basically maintain that His original mission was a failure. Mormonism is a false religion, based on the fantasies of Joseph Smith.
Not so. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was founded by Jesus Christ, and our belief in an apostasy does not mean that Christ’s original mission was a failure. Indeed, His infinite atoning sacrifice provides the only means by which man can be saved.
 
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was founded by Jesus Christ,
A historical fiction
our belief in an apostasy
A historical fiction
does not mean that Christ’s original mission was a failure.
I guess you are free to redefine his mission to make that true
Indeed, His infinite atoning sacrifice provides the only means by which man can be saved.
infinite atoning sacrifice?
 
And how exactly does one view Catholic history? Sorry, but this reminds me of pots and kettles…
We are honest about our past. Mormon cover it up. I think it is interesting that those who freely admit to having done wrong are those who are truly repentant.

I would rather have a pot that has been thoroughly scrubbed, inside and out, than a kettle that has been painted with aluminum paint. Putting it on the burner will reveal all.
 
Unfortunately this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how Latter-day Saints view Apostasy. The Great Apostasy was not due to some failure of Jesus Christ, but the failure (that we see repeatedly throughout Biblical history) of man. It is also based on a strong belief in free agency, the belief that we have the ability to choose, and God will not force us to do something that we do not want to do.
 
So do we.
We don’t base our teaching on the behaviour of individuals and nor do we redefine it every few years in such a fashion that new believers entering the faith are often surprised to learn what the previous set of beliefs were.
I’m a convert (not a recent one) to the restored Church of Jesus Christ, and I never experienced any such thing.
The latter has happened here unnumerable times when recently converted or young Mormons have interacted with ex-Mormons of an older generation here. On two occasions I can recall thus far this has led to Mormon posters questioning the Church of Latter Day Saint’s veracity.
Do you have examples? I’d love to read what exactly happened on this forum. I’ve read the Ex-Mormon forums for some time now (among others), and quite frequently, I see a consistent misrepresentation of actual LDS historical teachings, especially in regards to what is and isn’t considered doctrinal, how we view statements made by our authorities, etc.
 
We are honest about our past. Mormon cover it up. I think it is interesting that those who freely admit to having done wrong are those who are truly repentant.
Fortunately this is untrue. LDS are also honest about our past. We readily discuss the difficult times, amongst ourselves and with others. I’ve experienced this innumerable times, including at our flagship university.
I would rather have a pot that has been thoroughly scrubbed, inside and out, than a kettle that has been painted with aluminum paint. Putting it on the burner will reveal all.
I agree.
 
The simple fact is that mormonism does not withstand the test of investigation. This is true on so many different levels. Joseph Smith is not credible. The Book of Mormon is not credible. Mormon theology is not credible. The mormon organization has spent years and millions of dollars in the attempt to prove the historicity of the BOM, the “truest” of mormon “scripture.” All to no avail. There is no evidence for the “foundation” of mormonism. The truth is is that mormons are the victims of a great hoax. In fact, a number of mormons have confessed, on these forums, that they know that mormonism is false, but they remain in the cult because it represents the whole of their support structure. There is but one conclusion, The Catholic Church is the True Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself or the mormon “church” is His true church. There is no middle ground. All of the evidence is against mormonism. Intellectual dishonesty keeps most mormons in the cult. Fact does not seem to enter in to their analysis of what they believe. One mormon on this forum stated that “even if Joseph Smith was proven to be a fraud, I would still believe in him.” That is called “invincible ignorance.”
 
What Catholicism offers is the full Gospel of Jesus Christ because we have the Oral Testimony given us by the Apostles.

We have the sacraments. We have documented history. We do not invalidate the Jewish culture.

All things are made new by Jesus Christ. He broke linear time. He was and is the atonement for our sins. We do not need another interpreter with new stories…the Old Testament was fulfilled in Jesus Christ…

The point Mormons and others do not realize is that Holy Orders is a true sacrament just as the other sacraments. Irregardless of the merits or demerits of the priest, when he says Mass according to the proper form of the Church, we are still receiving Jesus Christ in the fullness of His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.

We look at Jesus Christ in the Church, not priests. So our faith goes on irregardless…it is about Who are focus is. If we look at people, priests, etc., we are taking our focus away from Christ.

Catholics have to learn, one at a time, when to keep the focus solely on Christ, and when to look at the priests – models and presence of Christ among us. All must return to the faith and understanding of Who Christ is.

So we can indeed bring forth bad histories; we can challenge our faith to the priests. And some times things can not be answered until later.

The Good Shepherd knows His flock and His flock knows Him. Jesus Christ has never left the Catholic Church. It is Jesus Christ Who is the life of the Church. Without Him, our church would have died out a long time ago.
 
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