Mormon "Apostasy & Restoration"

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RebeccaJ:
What, are you taking lessons from Stephen?

You are the one who said that “We both know the title[the book Kathleengee read and claims was the Pearl of Great Price] picked up had the words “Pearl of Great Price” in them. Though not actually the Pearl of Great Price.”

I DON’T know that. Neither do you. I know of no book with the “Pearl of Great Price” in the title that has such allusions in it. If you do, then providing the quotes and the citations should not be a problem.

You found Orson Pratt’s stuff, you can find this.
 
"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.
- Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811
Still not the Pearl of Great Price…

and you DO realize that you are qouting from the Journal of Discourses, and the Times and Seasons, yes? From a time when the Mormons were literally getting SHOT AT with great frequency, and having their homes taken from them and all that?

Given just how nasty people NOW can get at far less provocation, and also considering the rhetoric being used by all the other Christian denominations about each other as well as against us, you might want to give it a rest.

As well, you MIGHT want to find something more recent than a century and a half ago.

I’m just saying…
 
This is what you said:
…and y’know…I have never heard that ANY LDS leader has EVER referred to Protestants as being the 'whoredaughters" of Catholicism. Trust me on this one,
Did I not give you quotes from LDS leaders who referred to Protestants as daughters of harlots?
Still not the Pearl of Great Price…

and you DO realize that you are qouting from the Journal of Discourses, and the Times and Seasons, yes? From a time when the Mormons were literally getting SHOT AT with great frequency, and having their homes taken from them and all that?

Given just how nasty people NOW can get at far less provocation, and also considering the rhetoric being used by all the other Christian denominations about each other as well as against us, you might want to give it a rest.

As well, you MIGHT want to find something more recent than a century and a half ago.

I’m just saying…
Now you’re just making excuses.
 
What, are you taking lessons from Stephen?

You are the one who said that “We both know the title[the book Kathleengee read and claims was the Pearl of Great Price] picked up had the words “Pearl of Great Price” in them. Though not actually the Pearl of Great Price.”

I DON’T know that. Neither do you. I know of no book with the “Pearl of Great Price” in the title that has such allusions in it. If you do, then providing the quotes and the citations should not be a problem.

You found Orson Pratt’s stuff, you can find this.
a- It is not the Pearl of Great Price
b- Kathleengee remembers she bought a book with the title of “Pearl of Great Price”

So. Are you calling her a liar?

I am assuming she is not, so therefore, what do you think the conclusion is? Do you have another?
 
😊
This is what you said:

Did I not give you quotes from LDS leaders who referred to Protestants as daughters of harlots?
The meaning seems to be the same as ‘whoredaughters,’ yes. I can’t argue against that, and yes, it is embarrassing and annoying. However, whether you believe me or not on this, I was worried more about the specific wording, since she was so specific–and since I HAVE seen that specific wording several times on anti-Catholic fundamentalist websites today. She made quite a point of the word ‘whoredaughters.’ I don’t see that word/term in those quotes, do you? We are talking about the specific term in that specific book.

…and yes, I am ashamed and irritated that some of our earlier leaders used this sort of rhetoric. They were wrong.
Now you’re just making excuses.
Think so?

well, Rebecca, do you really want me to start quoting the sort of **** CATHOLICS say about Mormons and Mormonism…LAST WEEK? TODAY?

I understand that “tu quoque” is a fallacy in one way; just because it is a pot calling the kettle black does not mean that the kettle is not black.

On the other hand, you had to go back a century and a half to winnow out a few quotes in order to justify your charge that Mormons are awful bigots who go around calling Catholics whores of Babylon at every turn. We don’t.

I can, and you know it, find far worse things said about Mormonism by Catholics, and they’ve said it, not a century and a half ago, but today. Last week. Constantly. Derisively. Shoot, right HERE on this forum.

It’s a case of “War and Peace” calling “Different ways to spell ‘Bob’” a long book.

…and I’ll bet there isn’t a single Catholic or Protestant here who can claim that a Mormon attacked them physically because of their religion.

Reverse it, and I can do that.

NO Catholic or Protestant here has been handed a pamphlet that compares Mormonism to their religion–to the detriment of their religion, and then declares that they are ‘not Christian’ because they don’t march by Mormon standards.

WE get that all the time. Constantly. Incessantly.

But we’ve had this conversation before, and as before, you know that for every LDS quote you can find that criticizes another religion (pretty much all more than a century old and countable on one’s fingers…and maybe toes…) I can produce, quite literally, REAMS of quotes from Catholic and Protestants who say the most horrific things about Mormons and Mormonism. Some of those quotes will come from the books that CAF is advertising on the sidebar of this forum. I see, every single day, such insults and attacks upon Mormons and Mormonism that, if we used them on you, would result in such a self-righteous outpouring of indignation that the planet just might stop turning from the sheer force of the outrage.

So…rather admit the very obvious FACT that whatever book this poor lady picked up was NOT the Pearl of Great Price–and that the Pearl of Great Price has no such language in it…and that there is no title written by any member of the church with “Pearl of Great Price” in the title HAS such language in it, you hint, and you intimate, and do the “wink/wink, nudge/nudge…you and I know that the book had “Pearl of Great Price” in the title, even if it isn’t THAT 'Pearl of Great Price.”

…and when I tell you that no, I do NOT 'know that," you get sarcastic–as if I am the one attempting to pull something. Well, if you know of a book by an LDS author with “Pearl of Great Price” in the title that DOES use such langauge, cough it up. I want the book, the author…the quotes and the page numbers.

If such a book exists, I can only think that you are deliberately setting me up…but OK, if it exists, it will answer the really wierd question that Kathleengee brings up. If it exists, you will have scored quite a point.

I don’t think it exists…and I’m staking quite a bit on challenging you on this issue.
 
I am back…I simply went for the title of the book, Pearl of Great Price, never saw the author, but read passages as was shared by Rebecca J…

I was very upset by it.

I never bought the book, wouldn’t want to.

I called up SLC headquarters and said they knew nothing about the book…yet when reading Mormon writings, there was a number of references to the title of this book.

For us, the Pearl of Great Price is Christ and His kingdom…it costs one very much to renounce one’s self, to accept the Cross and all sorts of denigration. And to see my faith denigrated like that…on one hand I know this is the price we always have to pay…especially here in this state…where our interstate had a big billboard of John Paul II labelled the Antichrist by the Adventists…but I guess I should not have been so upset…

But it is this sense of Mormon…we are saints…we are so pretty, so special…

I mean all this sort of thinking comes out of the Campbell/S…can’t remember the other name…of American men living in the 1830’s…Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Adventists, and all the other sects and cults our individualistic culture spins out.

The other concern I have about Mormonism…haven’t touch the whole issue of the priesthoood…is that when people sign up, they are supposed to give a certain amount of money to the church…Am I correct the church asks to see their W-4???

We have never tithed in our history…Is it true Mormons cannot be friends with Catholics and Protestants??

Back to the idea of being special…This idea of being called saints when Jesus said those who persevere to the end sound conceited and presumptuous of their salvation…

I realize there are books labelled Catholic that are not…so I am open to being corrected…but when I read the words of the book after seeing it referenced, I was shocked. Especially as this store approximates the most affluent and educated in the area.

My Catholic girlfriend grew up in alot of affluence. She and her husband were taken in by the Adventists…her mother came to their church…the minister started denouncing our church and she got up and walked out…As she was going out, the minister said cutting remarks behind her back…my friend left, seeing it was based on numerology.

But I cannot understand why people can believe Joseph Smith, his immoral life, his contradictions and strange ideas…and the lost Levites right here in the good ol’ USA.

There are no artifacts…and if Mormons want to leave and go to another church, they will be shunned. Some have left, were so burned by ideas of it, that they want nothing to do with any religion.

If there was no Catholic Church, these johnny come lately churches would collapse because they are all based on the idea that we are false and they are the real ones…that some how Christ is not really God, made a big boo boo until they came along…they all have the same concept of us…albeit those who want to read this man and that Bruce McConkie…there are alot of people in this country who ‘hide their malice with the veil of religion’…

All these new religions popping up all the time…I think the degree we have it here in America…the terrible slavery and mistreatment of the blacks, Jews and Catholics in the South in the name of Christ…it is the worst scourge our country has ever witnessed. It has turned so many away from God.
 
Really, after reading the second quote from John Tayler, am I wrong?
What, that a couple of our early leaders were rude and said nasty things about Catholicism? No. you weren’t wrong.

That you were snarky about it? yeah, you were.
 
a- It is not the Pearl of Great Price
b- Kathleengee remembers she bought a book with the title of “Pearl of Great Price”

So. Are you calling her a liar?

I am assuming she is not, so therefore, what do you think the conclusion is? Do you have another?
Honestly?

I don’t for a minute think she is lying. I believe she honestly thinks that the book she picked up was the “Pearl of Great Price.”

However, this isn’t a binary choice here, Rebecca. Just because she THINKS it was the “Pearl of Great Price” doesn’t automatically mean it WAS.

Anyone who has ever actually read “the Pearl of Great Price,” however superficially they may skim it, knows that no such language appears there. Nor does any commentary about it contain such language.

For one thing, any reference to Catholicism or Protestantism in a commentary on the PoGP would be utterly irrelevant to the book itself; it would be the purest of non-sequiturs. While I haven’t read every commentary on the book ever written, those that I have read prove this out; there’s no place to PUT such langauge, or even a reference to Catholicism, for crying out loud!
 
😊

The meaning seems to be the same as ‘whoredaughters,’ yes. I can’t argue against that, and yes, it is embarrassing and annoying. However, whether you believe me or not on this, I was worried more about the specific wording, since she was so specific–and since I HAVE seen that specific wording several times on anti-Catholic fundamentalist websites today. She made quite a point of the word ‘whoredaughters.’ I don’t see that word/term in those quotes, do you? We are talking about the specific term in that specific book.

…and yes, I am ashamed and irritated that some of our earlier leaders used this sort of rhetoric. They were wrong.

Think so?

well, Rebecca, do you really want me to start quoting the sort of **** CATHOLICS say about Mormons and Mormonism…LAST WEEK? TODAY?

I understand that “tu quoque” is a fallacy in one way; just because it is a pot calling the kettle black does not mean that the kettle is not black.

On the other hand, you had to go back a century and a half to winnow out a few quotes in order to justify your charge that Mormons are awful bigots who go around calling Catholics whores of Babylon at every turn. We don’t.

I can, and you know it, find far worse things said about Mormonism by Catholics, and they’ve said it, not a century and a half ago, but today. Last week. Constantly. Derisively. Shoot, right HERE on this forum.

It’s a case of “War and Peace” calling “Different ways to spell ‘Bob’” a long book.

…and I’ll bet there isn’t a single Catholic or Protestant here who can claim that a Mormon attacked them physically because of their religion.

Reverse it, and I can do that.

NO Catholic or Protestant here has been handed a pamphlet that compares Mormonism to their religion–to the detriment of their religion, and then declares that they are ‘not Christian’ because they don’t march by Mormon standards.

WE get that all the time. Constantly. Incessantly.

But we’ve had this conversation before, and as before, you know that for every LDS quote you can find that criticizes another religion (pretty much all more than a century old and countable on one’s fingers…and maybe toes…) I can produce, quite literally, REAMS of quotes from Catholic and Protestants who say the most horrific things about Mormons and Mormonism. Some of those quotes will come from the books that CAF is advertising on the sidebar of this forum. I see, every single day, such insults and attacks upon Mormons and Mormonism that, if we used them on you, would result in such a self-righteous outpouring of indignation that the planet just might stop turning from the sheer force of the outrage.

So…rather admit the very obvious FACT that whatever book this poor lady picked up was NOT the Pearl of Great Price–and that the Pearl of Great Price has no such language in it…and that there is no title written by any member of the church with “Pearl of Great Price” in the title HAS such language in it, you hint, and you intimate, and do the “wink/wink, nudge/nudge…you and I know that the book had “Pearl of Great Price” in the title, even if it isn’t THAT 'Pearl of Great Price.”

…and when I tell you that no, I do NOT 'know that," you get sarcastic–as if I am the one attempting to pull something. Well, if you know of a book by an LDS author with “Pearl of Great Price” in the title that DOES use such langauge, cough it up. I want the book, the author…the quotes and the page numbers.

If such a book exists, I can only think that you are deliberately setting me up…but OK, if it exists, it will answer the really wierd question that Kathleengee brings up. If it exists, you will have scored quite a point.

I don’t think it exists…and I’m staking quite a bit on challenging you on this issue.
Everytime a Mormon is proven wrong the first thing they do is start whining.
 
I am back…I simply went for the title of the book, Pearl of Great Price, never saw the author, but read passages as was shared by Rebecca J…
Rebecca gave us quotes. None of them were from “the Pearl of Great Price,” and none of them used terms like 'whoredaughters."

Whatever book you think you got, it was not the Pearl of Great Price. All you have to do is go take a look at it to prove that.
II was very upset by it.
So would I be…and am, every time I read a book that has insulting and derogatory language about my faith in it.
II never bought the book, wouldn’t want to.
But…you told us you 'buried it in the sand?"
II called up SLC headquarters and said they knew nothing about the book…yet when reading Mormon writings, there was a number of references to the title of this book.
As there should be, since it IS one of the Standard Works of the Church. I don’t know who you spoke to, Kathleen, but there is no way that anyone in the SLC church headquarters would not know about this book. It’s like you not knowing about the Book of Luke.
IFor us, the Pearl of Great Price is Christ and His kingdom.
As it is for us. though in my research attempting to find a book with that title that MIGHT have the language you claim is in it, I found several books of that title that refer to other things; marriage (that was a Catholic author), a specific calling to religious life (also Catholic) and a couple by fundamentalist authors that talk about finding Christ THEIR way…judging from their websites, it’s possible that the language that upset you did occur in their versions.
I…it costs one very much to renounce one’s self, to accept the Cross and all sorts of denigration. And to see my faith denigrated like that…on one hand I know this is the price we always have to pay…especially here in this state…where our interstate had a big billboard of John Paul II labelled the Antichrist by the Adventists…but I guess I should not have been so upset…
Well, please notice that a Mormon didn’t put that billboard up.
I But it is this sense of Mormon…we are saints…we are so pretty, so special…
Really? You know so many self righteous and insufferable Mormons, then?
I I mean all this sort of thinking comes out of the Campbell/S…can’t remember the other name…of American men living in the 1830’s…Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Adventists, and all the other sects and cults our individualistic culture spins out.
That’s "Campbell/Stone,’ and yes, that’s the ‘Restorationist’ movement. WE do claim to be Restorationist, though we have very, VERY little in common with the Campbell/Stone beliefs. About as much as the Catholics do, in fact, if that.
IThe other concern I have about Mormonism…haven’t touch the whole issue of the priesthoood…is that when people sign up, they are supposed to give a certain amount of money to the church…Am I correct the church asks to see their W-4???
You are not correct. We believe in the law of tithing, but nothing is forced, nor are our financial records subject to any inspection. The only check on our honesty in this matter is a question: 'are you a full tithe payer?" The answer, whatever it is, is accepted.
IWe have never tithed in our history
Yes you have–and Catholics do tithe. AND you have had quite a history of more or less forced contributions. Look up the history of Peter’s Pence sometime. But here is a discussion of how tithing works for Catholics, right here in CAF. …

cont…
 
continued from previous post;
Is it true Mormons cannot be friends with Catholics and Protestants??
No. At the risk of getting thwapped…some of my best friends are Catholics and Protestants, Shoot, one of my dearest friends is an Anglican who is currently converting to Judaism.
Back to the idea of being special…This idea of being called saints when Jesus said those who persevere to the end sound conceited and presumptuous of their salvation…
No. We call ourselves ‘saints’ (or rather, “Latter-day saints”) to conform with the way the word is used in the NT. Not that we are special, but simply that we are members of His church, having made our baptismal covenants. It is not a title confering extra holiness.
I realize there are books labelled Catholic that are not…so I am open to being corrected…but when I read the words of the book after seeing it referenced, I was shocked. Especially as this store approximates the most affluent and educated in the area.
Kathleen, this is a very easy question to settle. Go here. skim through the book. (You don’t actually have to read it…) and see if it bears any resemblance to the book you picked up that day. Perhaps seeing the real thing will prompt you to remember what the book you picked up that day really was.
My Catholic girlfriend grew up in alot of affluence. She and her husband were taken in by the Adventists…her mother came to their church…the minister started denouncing our church and she got up and walked out…As she was going out, the minister said cutting remarks behind her back…my friend left, seeing it was based on numerology.
The Adventists are based on numerology? I see this claim made by several anti-SDA sites, but is there anything by a Seventh Day Adventist that touches on this? I’m now curious. 😉

…I’m sorry you had that experience. perhaps someday I’ll tell you about a little bit of fun I had when I was invited to attend a local Christian church, and spent the entire meeting in my ‘best place to see the preacher from’ having a spotlight aimed at me while the preacher denounced Mormonism as a bunch of rapists, murderers and whoremongers. That was interesting. So…I empathize.
But I cannot understand why people can believe Joseph Smith, his immoral life, his contradictions and strange ideas…and the lost Levites right here in the good ol’ USA.
Well, I wouldn’t believe in Joseph Smith either, if his story and the church he founded bore any resemblance to the version you think exists.
There are no artifacts…and if Mormons want to leave and go to another church, they will be shunned. Some have left, were so burned by ideas of it, that they want nothing to do with any religion.
Well, we don’t practice shunning, at least officially. I can’t say that families don’t become very disappointed, but in my experience the shunning goes the other way; he or she who leaves will have nothing further to do with us. As to the other thing…well, I used to think that if I ever came to believe that the CoJCoLDS was incorrect, that I’d become an atheist. Certainly no OTHER religion makes any sense to me. Still doesn’t. However, whether Mormonism is correct or not (and I believe it is) I know that Jesus is the Christ. So I guess I’ll just keep on having faith at least in that.
If there was no Catholic Church, these johnny come lately churches would collapse because they are all based on the idea that we are false and they are the real ones…that some how Christ is not really God, made a big boo boo until they came along…they all have the same concept of us…albeit those who want to read this man and that Bruce McConkie…there are alot of people in this country who ‘hide their malice with the veil of religion’…
interesting phrase you have in quotes, there. Who wrote it? Besides you, that is.
All these new religions popping up all the time…I think the degree we have it here in America…the terrible slavery and mistreatment of the blacks, Jews and Catholics in the South in the name of Christ…it is the worst scourge our country has ever witnessed. It has turned so many away from God.
Do NOT get me going on the topic of Catholics and slavery, Kathleen.
 
It is impossible that a Great Apostasy has ever occurred. Take a look at these verses from Sacred Scripture:

(Matthew 16:18 DRB) And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

(Matthew 28:20 DRB) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

(Hebrews 13:5 DRB) Let your manners be without covetousness, contented with such things as you have. For he hath said: I will not leave thee: neither will I forsake thee.

(John 14:16 DRB) And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever:

See also this article from Catholic Answers:

catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9203fea.asp
 
It is impossible that a Great Apostasy has ever occurred. Take a look at these verses from Sacred Scripture:

(Matthew 16:18 DRB) And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

(Matthew 28:20 DRB) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

(Hebrews 13:5 DRB) Let your manners be without covetousness, contented with such things as you have. For he hath said: I will not leave thee: neither will I forsake thee.

(John 14:16 DRB) And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever:

See also this article from Catholic Answers:

catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9203fea.asp
I’ve already posted those Holly. Scripture has proven no Apostasy could happen as they describe and warns us of “new” gospels such as the BOM. She just ignores what scripture clearly says or does the famous Mormon twist with them.
 
I’ve already posted those Holly. Scripture has proven no Apostasy could happen as they describe and warns us of “new” gospels such as the BOM. She just ignores what scripture clearly says or does the famous Mormon twist with them.
Actually, we Mormons believe that those scriptures quite clearly say something much different than you think they do, and we believe that it’s you guys who are putting the “famous Catholic twist” on them. 🙂

Why y’all figure that we should be overwhelmed by your interpretation of scripture as the obvious one, when the interpretation we have is just as logical in our own world view, is beyond me.

I sure don’t expect YOU to fall into the waters of LDS baptism after I explain what I think they mean. I simply expect you to acknowledge that a: I really do believe what I say I do, that b: it is possible to interpret scriptures differently from you and NOT be either a liar, possessed by Satan or terminally stupid, and c: that it’s not all THAT obvious that you are right in your interpretation, because if it were, then everybody would be Catholic.

…and we aren’t.

that doesn’t mean that your interpretation IS wrong, mind you. I mean, I believe it’s wrong, but hey…

what it means is that you needn’t be so disdainful and dismissive of other viewpoints. It doesn’t go over well.
 
Actually, we Mormons believe that those scriptures quite clearly say something much different than you think they do, and we believe that it’s you guys who are putting the “famous Catholic twist” on them. 🙂

Why y’all figure that we should be overwhelmed by your interpretation of scripture as the obvious one, when the interpretation we have is just as logical in our own world view, is beyond me.

I sure don’t expect YOU to fall into the waters of LDS baptism after I explain what I think they mean. I simply expect you to acknowledge that a: I really do believe what I say I do, that b: it is possible to interpret scriptures differently from you and NOT be either a liar, possessed by Satan or terminally stupid, and c: that it’s not all THAT obvious that you are right in your interpretation, because if it were, then everybody would be Catholic.

…and we aren’t.

that doesn’t mean that your interpretation IS wrong, mind you. I mean, I believe it’s wrong, but hey…

what it means is that you needn’t be so disdainful and dismissive of other viewpoints. It doesn’t go over well.
Do you believe anyone interpreted those scriptures as you do prior to Joseph Smith?
 
Do you believe anyone interpreted those scriptures as you do prior to Joseph Smith?
I have no idea. I do believe that a few interpreted them differently from the Catholics, though, yes…else why are there so many Protestants?

But here’s the thing; we believe that God called Joseph Smith to be an honest to goodness prophet, restoring quite a few things that were actually LOST over the centuries. So it’s possible that nobody else has interpreted some scriptures quite the way we do. 🤷

doesn’t make us wrong, though. That’s what I was talking about when I said that these scriptures make sense to us the way we interpret them, from within our worldview. Everything depends upon the assumption we start with.
 
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