C
courtiswa
Guest
I am lost regarding your fully standardized portion of your quote.
Do you consider Mormons to be Christians or does their doctrine concern you?
- Status
Do you consider Mormons to be Christians or does their doctrine concern you?
Would you agree that there is only one correct way to interpret them? After all, there can only be one truth because truth cannot contradict truth.I have no idea. I do believe that a few interpreted them differently from the Catholics, though, yes…else why are there so many Protestants?
But here’s the thing; we believe that God called Joseph Smith to be an honest to goodness prophet, restoring quite a few things that were actually LOST over the centuries. So it’s possible that nobody else has interpreted some scriptures quite the way we do.
doesn’t make us wrong, though. That’s what I was talking about when I said that these scriptures make sense to us the way we interpret them, from within our worldview. Everything depends upon the assumption we start with.
D
dianaiad
Guest
Obviously there are different ways that scriptures MAY be intepreted, because they ARE interpreted differently.
On the other hand, I’m certainly willing to agree that, Truth being Truth, that when interpretations clash, only one can be ‘true.’
I, of course, believe that this would be the one I use, which is why I AM LDS and not Catholic or Baptist or…???
So when it comes to the Bible, who would you trust to interpret the New Testament, Joseph Smith or St. Paul?
M
majick275
Guest
and yet many LDS leaders have in the past taught that the BoM reference to the “great and abominable church of the devil” is the Catholic church. elements of the temple ceremony certainly reinforced this. recently there has been attempts to “genericize” this and appear more ecumenical…i dont see how this can be taken seriously though as the missionary discussions still start with a global loss of all sacramental grace due to the people “turning away”, over 1500 years of spiritual darkness and then only joseph smith and his direct successors can get you what you need for exaltation.
D
dianaiad
Guest
You are asking me who I would trust to interpret the words of Paul better…Paul or Joseph Smith?
Seriously?
D
dianaiad
Guest
We believe that there was a general apostasy…and we are certainly not going to apologize for that belief. However, the ‘great and abominable church,’ while it encompasses many Catholics, also encompasses all those who worship something other than God, and put their faith in something less than He. The Church of Christ, on the other hand, ALSO encompasses many Catholics, and all those who put their faith in Him.
That’s what I have been taught ALL my life, and I’m 60 years old.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Just skimmed posts…busy day to day…and
LOL!!
I never bought the book whose front was entitled, ‘Pearl of Great Price’…That is why I picked it up in the first place as I am very drawn to Scriptural spirituality!
and it wasn’t Bruce McConkie who wrote it…that I can recall…
Jesus speaks about when finding a treasure, how one will bury it in the sand and come back…
For us the Kingdom of Christ is the Great Treasure, the Pearl of Great Price, of greatest value to be protected and hidden from the robbers of this world…and so we bury Him and His life deep within our heart while we go about our daily occupations, only to return and draw on Him!!..
No, there is no need for me to buy such a book and then go down to the beach where they have sand and bury it…the tides would only erode it and carry it away…
I was using a figure of speech!!! I just used the word sand…
LOL!!
I never bought the book whose front was entitled, ‘Pearl of Great Price’…That is why I picked it up in the first place as I am very drawn to Scriptural spirituality!
and it wasn’t Bruce McConkie who wrote it…that I can recall…
Jesus speaks about when finding a treasure, how one will bury it in the sand and come back…
For us the Kingdom of Christ is the Great Treasure, the Pearl of Great Price, of greatest value to be protected and hidden from the robbers of this world…and so we bury Him and His life deep within our heart while we go about our daily occupations, only to return and draw on Him!!..
No, there is no need for me to buy such a book and then go down to the beach where they have sand and bury it…the tides would only erode it and carry it away…
I was using a figure of speech!!! I just used the word sand…
K
KathleenGee
Guest
About whether or not I think Mormons are Christian…
You have to look at the veil of language and culture…These Mormons I knew shared with me some insights they had on Revelations that were so much like Marian Catholics…and they also had great respect for John Paul II and their visit to the Vatican.
I also know that the Mormons are very different than they were in the last century and that there is a growing standardization that perhaps 100 years from now, their prophets will then affirm what we believe.
I also think the Mormons not only are in competition with the Catholic Church but because of their attitudes of it from the 1830’s which made them reactionary to us, I believe they have studied our organizational structure as a church in great depth, and even some of their contemporary language sounds like American bishops.
Do a comparative…and about the homosexual orientation, ‘through no fault of their own…’ by both leaderships…
You have to look at the veil of language and culture…These Mormons I knew shared with me some insights they had on Revelations that were so much like Marian Catholics…and they also had great respect for John Paul II and their visit to the Vatican.
I also know that the Mormons are very different than they were in the last century and that there is a growing standardization that perhaps 100 years from now, their prophets will then affirm what we believe.
I also think the Mormons not only are in competition with the Catholic Church but because of their attitudes of it from the 1830’s which made them reactionary to us, I believe they have studied our organizational structure as a church in great depth, and even some of their contemporary language sounds like American bishops.
Do a comparative…and about the homosexual orientation, ‘through no fault of their own…’ by both leaderships…
D
dianaiad
Guest
Well, no. Bruce McConkie had nothing to do with “the Pearl of Great Price.”
But I’ll bet you haven’t gone to look at the Pearl of Great Price to see that it’s not the horrific volume you describe it as being, have you?
C’mon, Kathleen, be fair. You have made some very serious charges about this book. I’ll bet you’ve spread those opinions to quite a few other people. The very most that can happen to you is that your opinions are confirmed–but what if you find out you were wrong?
Think about it; if the truth isn’t sufficient to discredit a belief, then perhaps you shouldn’t try so hard to discredit it. Go with the truth. Look at the book. Then, when you tell people about it, you can tell them what it really is.
Fair is fair.
D
dianaiad
Guest
All of which might comfort you in some way, but has nothing to do with whether we are Christian or not.
C
catholic-rcia
Guest
The problem here is it’s the Catholic Church’s Diary. (NT)Actually, we Mormons believe that those scriptures quite clearly say something much different than you think they do, and we believe that it’s you guys who are putting the “famous Catholic twist” on them.
Who best to tell you the meaning? Its all about Christ, His love for us, forgiveness and reconcillation. Everything is intact. Largest Charitable organization on earth. Even its fruit is intact.
Does it contain evil? Of course it does…I go! Its a hospial for sinners with an exceptional doctor.
R
rinnie
Guest
[SIGN][/SIGN]
2 Tim 1:6 For this reason I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God that you have through the imposition of my hands. Thats Called Holy Orders. Thats where the Power of the Holy Spirit is promised to them to define scripture. Can you show me where your Leaders have the imposition of hands. You cant. Just like you cannot show that the imposition of hands has ever ended, because on both accounts its never happened. Holy orders is passed on today just as yesterday by the Power of the Holy Spirit. The same Spirit you deny in the CC.Actually, we Mormons believe that those scriptures quite clearly say something much different than you think they do, [SIGN]and we believe that it’s you guys who are putting the “famous Catholic twist” on them[/SIGN].
Why y’all figure that we should be overwhelmed by your interpretation of scripture as the obvious one, when the interpretation we have is just as logical in our own world view, is beyond me.
I sure don’t expect YOU to fall into the waters of LDS baptism after I explain what I think they mean. I simply expect you to acknowledge that a: I really do believe what I say I do, that b: it is possible to interpret scriptures differently from you and NOT be either a liar, possessed by Satan or terminally stupid, and c: that it’s not all THAT obvious that you are right in your interpretation, because if it were, then everybody would be Catholic.
…and we aren’t.
that doesn’t mean that your interpretation IS wrong, mind you. I mean, I believe it’s wrong, but hey…
what it means is that you needn’t be so disdainful and dismissive of other viewpoints. It doesn’t go over well.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
No, nothing horrific about teaching God lies, is one of many gods, is nothing but an "intelligence’ made into a man made into a god. Nothing evil about that whatsoever.
Not only St. Paul’s words, but any of the New Testament. Would you trust St. Paul to interpret the Gospel’s or Joseph Smith?
D
dianaiad
Guest
In a way, yes…but only in the way a collage is an original piece of art.
Who best to tell the meaning of scripture?
Why…the Holy Ghost, actually, trumps pretty much everybody.
D
dianaiad
Guest
We call that the ‘laying on of hands,’ Rinnie, and it is THE way ordinations and blessings take place.
Actually, I can. But you have just identified the one GREAT difference between Catholicism and Mormonism. Just as you believe that the power of the Priesthood remains because of apostolic succession, so we claim that this power/authority was taken from the earth and had to be restored.
You believe you have that authority, and we believe we do. The two positions are mutually exclusive. But both versions of the priesthood, Catholic and CoJCoLDS, adminiister it by the ‘laying on of hands.’
I never claimed that Catholics do not have the Holy spirit with them to help them stay close to Christ. That’s a very different thing than having the authority to act in His Name, though.
D
dianaiad
Guest
You didn’t get it, I see. Tell me; who is the better choice to interpret the words of Paul? Or are his words somehow NOT a part of the NewTestament any more?
Come to think of it, he didn’t do a whole lot of scriptural commentary in his letters. A lot of lambasting…not a lot of scriptural commentary. That COULD be because he is actually WRITING scripture, not trying to interpret the writings of others.
So your question is, quite frankly, silly.
As for me, I read the scriptures, go to commentaries of all sorts of people (LDS and not) then, when I come to a meaning that seems right, I pray about it. The Holy Ghost will confirm the truth of whatever it is I am doing, or I go back to the drawing board, so to speak. (shrug) All scriptures are interpreted by means of study, thought and prayer.
Joseph Smith is a bit like Paul for us, y’know. He didn’t so much interpret scripture as he wrote it.
S
SteveVH
Guest
As I stated early on, I am new to this site. My original thread, I thought, asked a fairly simple question. There have been some great and insightful posts to this thread but I am saddened at the amount of back biting going on and discussion of sideline issues that don’t get any of us very far.
A wise priest once told me that the Catholic Church is a divine institution made up of sinners. How long could we go on trading stories of failures of some of the members of both the Catholic Church and the LDS? What makes our Church holy is not its members, but rather its head, Jesus Christ. I will never try to defend the shortcmoings of various characters throughout the history of our Church. Nor do I take any pleasure in pointing out the failures of various Mormons (other than doctrinal) - it gets us nowhere and I plead with those of you who are trading jabs to please stop it. Aside from violating acceptable Christian behavior it distracts from the discussion at hand. If some of you wish to discuss who said what about whom and which church gets the nasty award then I suggest starting another thread.
As to my original question, I have seen nothing convincing as to any evidence that the “great apsostasy” ever occured and certainly no evidence that the LDS church has “restored” anything, but rather is a modern invention based upon scriptural misinterpretations and active imaginations. As I stated before, what really bothers me is the fact that it is being sold as the “restored” original. That brings in the dishonesty factor. I say this because I had a discussion with the local Mormon Bishop. He made a huge point of the LDS being a “restoration” rather than a reformation. When I asked him for even a shred of historical evidence for this he told me “I don’t study history, nor do I pay attention to it. I have the testimony of Joseph Smith.” The two Mormon missionaries who were with him could only stare at the table. It was the lamest excuse for a defense of one’s faith that I have ever witnessed - thus the reason I started this thread. I thought there has to be something more. I’ve certainly heard lame defenses by under-chatechized Catholics, but this was a Mormon Bishop. While I will say that the LDS members who have posted here have at least attempted to give a better explanation, I am saddened and amazed that the teenage girl who jumped into the LDS ship could fall for it. My only explanation is that a Mormon boyfriend is also part of the equation and that her decision is not based upon doctrinal issues, but rather immature infatuation with a boy.
I will continue my efforts to bring her back to the one and only true faith found in the Catholic Church. I’m releived that there are no doctrinal issues that have been presented by the LDS poster’s that give me pause or concern. At his point I feel like just slapping her across the face and saying “wake up”! I wish it were that easy.
A wise priest once told me that the Catholic Church is a divine institution made up of sinners. How long could we go on trading stories of failures of some of the members of both the Catholic Church and the LDS? What makes our Church holy is not its members, but rather its head, Jesus Christ. I will never try to defend the shortcmoings of various characters throughout the history of our Church. Nor do I take any pleasure in pointing out the failures of various Mormons (other than doctrinal) - it gets us nowhere and I plead with those of you who are trading jabs to please stop it. Aside from violating acceptable Christian behavior it distracts from the discussion at hand. If some of you wish to discuss who said what about whom and which church gets the nasty award then I suggest starting another thread.
As to my original question, I have seen nothing convincing as to any evidence that the “great apsostasy” ever occured and certainly no evidence that the LDS church has “restored” anything, but rather is a modern invention based upon scriptural misinterpretations and active imaginations. As I stated before, what really bothers me is the fact that it is being sold as the “restored” original. That brings in the dishonesty factor. I say this because I had a discussion with the local Mormon Bishop. He made a huge point of the LDS being a “restoration” rather than a reformation. When I asked him for even a shred of historical evidence for this he told me “I don’t study history, nor do I pay attention to it. I have the testimony of Joseph Smith.” The two Mormon missionaries who were with him could only stare at the table. It was the lamest excuse for a defense of one’s faith that I have ever witnessed - thus the reason I started this thread. I thought there has to be something more. I’ve certainly heard lame defenses by under-chatechized Catholics, but this was a Mormon Bishop. While I will say that the LDS members who have posted here have at least attempted to give a better explanation, I am saddened and amazed that the teenage girl who jumped into the LDS ship could fall for it. My only explanation is that a Mormon boyfriend is also part of the equation and that her decision is not based upon doctrinal issues, but rather immature infatuation with a boy.
I will continue my efforts to bring her back to the one and only true faith found in the Catholic Church. I’m releived that there are no doctrinal issues that have been presented by the LDS poster’s that give me pause or concern. At his point I feel like just slapping her across the face and saying “wake up”! I wish it were that easy.
J
Jay53
Guest
Just to be nosy
, how does the Holy Spirit confirm the truth of whatever Scripture you are reading? Is this the “burning in the bosom” that I’ve heard about and does that occur with any Scripture one is praying about? How do you determine what is the witness of the Holy Spirit and what is simply your internal thoughts/wishes/imaginings?(Please note that this is asked with all sincerity. No sarcasm/mocking etc.)
- Status