Mormon "Apostasy & Restoration"

[zerinus]

So the Book of Mormon is not for all people?

Let me guess - it is only for those who have faith enough to believe in it. The rest of us don’t have enough faith or have not received the “correct” testimony of the Holy Spirit.

Well, if you really wanted to join our Church without the witness of the Holy Spirit that it is true, we would not try to stop you. Some people have obtained that witness after they had joined the Church. But I am basing my comment on the assumption that unless you obtained that witness, you wouldn’t want to.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

It is not an “argument”. It is a promise that is found in the Book of Mormon. If that promise does not work for you, then you are not obliged to accept Mormonism. Mormonism is intended for those for whom the promise works, not for those for whom it doesn’t. If it doesn’t work for you, then you are not obliged to accept it—and we do not have an interest in trying to persuade you. Maybe God has some other plan for you; we wouldn’t know. Our time is best spent working with those for whom the promise works.

That statement doesn’t seem to comport with what other LDS members have told me. The truth is the truth… What your comment suggests is that truth is relative, or that God’s design is to leave some people ignorant of the fullness of the “truth” (i.e. mormonism). I don’t think that’s the case given the gospel’s statement that the Father desires that all should be saved. Do you really think that it is God’s design to intentionally leave some people in ignorance of the fullness of truth?

Peace,
Robert

 

[Jay53]

Well, if you really wanted to join our Church without the witness of the Holy Spirit that it is true, we would not try to stop you. Some people have obtained that witness after they had joined the Church. But I am basing my comment on the assumption that unless you obtained that witness, you wouldn’t want to.

Since the Holy Spirit confirms the Truth of the Catholic Church to me, you’re right, I do not want to and will not join your church.

 

[dianaiad]

So the Book of Mormon is not for all people?

Let me guess - it is only for those who have faith enough to believe in it. The rest of us don’t have enough faith or have not received the “correct” testimony of the Holy Spirit.

I guess you haven’t.

But then, isn’t it true that, turning this thing 180 degrees, you think the same of us?

 

[zerinus]

Two examples:
God has a body of flesh and bones.
God the Father is married to a Heavenly Mother.

And how does that contradict the Bible?

Is this the “burning in the bosom” or do you have some other witness?

I have the witness of the Holy Ghost; Call it what you will.

Very true if that is the only criteria you use to determine them. Again, I think true prophets cannot contradict previous scriptures which are already known to be from God.

Now you are changing tack. It suggests you are not very sincere in your discussion. At first you were looking for miracles. When I showed you that it was the wrong way, you are now pretending it was something else.

Which is?
And in what way did Joseph Smith have the “gift of miracles”?

If you are interested I recommend you to study his history. I don’t believe in trying to prove that Joseph Smith was a prophet by his miracles. I don’t think that would be an appropriate thing to do—with one possible exception—and that is the Book of Mormon. The translation of the Book of Mormon is possibly the greatest miracle he ever performed.

I have to agree with Robert that your internal feeling cannot be the only barometer of Truth. The example I have given before is the Muslims. I know of at least one who is absolutely certain that God has led her to Islam. Her “witness” then (to me at least) has been misinterpreted because I know that Islam is false. I have also had the Holy Spirit confirm the Truth of Catholicism to me.

Then my answer to him applies to you. I have nothing further to say.

 

[Jay53]

I guess you haven’t.

But then, isn’t it true that, turning this thing 180 degrees, you think the same of us?

No, that is not correct. I would not speculate on the faith that you have. I just think you have been misguided or have misinterpreted what you “think” is a witness of the Holy Spirit. Although if that is, in fact, what you believe about us, then I guess we do think the same thing.

 

[dianaiad]

That statement doesn’t seem to comport with what other LDS members have told me. The truth is the truth… What your comment suggests is that truth is relative, or that God’s design is to leave some people ignorant of the fullness of the “truth” (i.e. mormonism). I don’t think that’s the case given the gospel’s statement that the Father desires that all should be saved. Do you really think that it is God’s design to intentionally leave some people in ignorance of the fullness of truth?

Peace,
Robert

Truth is truth…and Catholics have truth. So do Baptists and Lutherans and Quakers and Budhists and…??? This truth is not relative; that is, that which is true for one person IS true for all.

God is. That is True no matter who claims it.
Treating others with kindness is a good thing. No matter who you are.
The Golden Rule is a Truth that most religions share.

Prayers are answered.

These things are Truth.

We believe (though you do not) that all men are ‘saved,’ in one way–in that Christ’s Atonement took care of original sin and save for a very few, all are headed for a heaven. We believe (though you do not) that man will be judged according to the truths he knows, not according to those truths he does not know.

We believe (though you do not) that we have the most Truth…and the most truth, too. That does not mean that nobody else has any—or that in some circumstances, someone is better served by lesser truth. I could be less blunt and say “different” truth–but truth is never different.

We believe that eventually all humans will have a chance to hear and accept the full gospel of Christ; none will be denied that opportunity.

I understand that you seem to have a problem with an acceptance that you might not come to believe that the CoJCoLDS is True. I don’t know why not…unless you can’t figure out why we don’t come to accept that YOUR particular faith is the Truth. Would you rather we figured, as you might, that the reason you don’t accept our faith as Truth is because you are too sinful, or stupid, or stubborn, or unwilling to give the ‘test’ a fair try?

Or perhaps it’s because you have been brainwashed?

I mean, really–isn’t that what you think about Mormons and why we don’t believe in the version of Christianity you prefer?

 

[catholic-rcia]

When I speak to Missionaries here in Utah one thing really stands out. “
***“I know the Church is true” ***

I think this goes a long way to why the LDS will not give any ground, it would be nearly impossible for them to give ground to anything pro Catholic. Other than we have simular values etc… But then?

“I know the Church is true”

That has to be a red flag, it gives me a sad feeling and my discernment is honest. I am really not trying to hurt you guys who are LDS and here at this board.

I was standing in grocery line a few years back when a grandmother looked into her granddaughters eyes and said to her “Do you know why grandma loves you?” The little girl said “yes” Then the grandma said “because you know the Church is true” This is in context….you don’t forget that. In the last 11 years I have heard this countless times. It is a constant theme within the LDS culture.

Of course being Catholic it did strike my heart. She did not know a Catholic was standing nest to her. The spirit told me to let it lye. I felt for that little girl. I found the Catholic faith many years into my life and trust me it was the last place I would have ever looked with my LDS background. I never have to say “I know the Church is true” not even a thought, as I am immersed into it in so many ways. As to my 3 children they will have to find out for themselves. I have one who attends and two that don’t. Its all in Gods time, I am so good with that.

Years back when someone said Catholic I felt a bit of darkness inside, even the word Catholic seemed weird. I get to witness once devout Mormons become Catholic. One thing that is common with them is that they never felt good enough. One thing they learn during Inquiry about the faith is that Jesus does not come to them when they uphold all the ordinances, that He comes to them in their sin and loves them to His death. He has always been next to them in the good, the bad and the ugly. That is not about being successful as Mother Teresa would say, rather its all about being faithful. That no matter how much tithing you tithe or how much you think you may be blessed bad things still happen to good people, with Christ we can be prepared to fall, to fail, to let down others, to be let down by others etc… its all just part of the mix. We will always have Him to help us back up, knowing that we are loved always.

Continue…

 

[catholic-rcia]

As Catholics we understand that perfection has nothing to do with keeping an immaculate house or making sure dinner is always ready on time or that we have to do everything and anything to stay afloat. Its not a program to follow in order to gain a certain level of success. Its all about Gods love for us, a personal relationship with Jesus. That we do not have a lock on love or even on our children. That love is entirely from God to us through His son by their Holy Spirit. . The beautiful thing for us Catholics is that we understand that through Jesus we get to share His love whether it be within the family or outside of it. You cannot tell 2000 years worth of this love shared by countless of Christians that somehow the Priesthood of Christ, this love disappeared for 18 hundred years. Like another poster said “Study History” Again with all the good, the bad and the ugly.

In all humility I have come to know that what motivates the LDS Church and what leads it is Pride. I know because I once had the same American Mormon pride. I know what pride is and how it feels and how evil it can be and how innocent we can all be to it.

Gods Church is built, was built because we are sinners in need of Jesus. Not because we happen to be a better breed of people, a people that can do a better job than the next. What I have in my Church are two confessionals that are at the ready with just a phone call. Understand Confession of your sins and it will go a long way to understanding authentic Christianity, the Catholic Church.

This life is not about being tested to see if we are worthy, its not the same as the American dream. Its about sinners who left God to be a god, to then find God and make Him the very center of your life. It’s not that complicated, the plan is simply about surrendering to God. Allowing Him to move in our lives, to step aside.

The LDS church has nothing to give me that I do not have in Christ. It can tell me about the eternal family and even make threats that I may loose this family. Been said many times in my stay here in Utah. I have heard this threat from many. And I know this threat for the LDS is very real because I understand what it means when a grandmother says to her grand daughter “Why does grandma love you” Because you know the Church is true. There is a sense among them that they have everything to loose. But I have to say you can gain the whole world as you would like it to be and really loose everything in the process. It has to be Jesus or nothing, no in between. In Him you do gain it all, and the families do come around to such change in your heart, to this realistic devotion. He mends the wounds.

What I have found in the Catholic Church is beyond my wildest dreams, along with all of those converts through the years that I am blessed to see at Mass each Sunday. Its Christmas and Easter in its authentic form and there is nothing better in this fallen world than receiving Christ in the Eucharist. Talk about a miracle….we have them daily, every 2 minutes somewhere on the face of the earth.

 

[zerinus]

That statement doesn’t seem to comport with what other LDS members have told me. The truth is the truth… What your comment suggests is that truth is relative, or that God’s design is to leave some people ignorant of the fullness of the “truth” (i.e. mormonism). I don’t think that’s the case given the gospel’s statement that the Father desires that all should be saved. Do you really think that it is God’s design to intentionally leave some people in ignorance of the fullness of truth?

Peace,
Robert

No, you have got my meaning completely wrong. Let me explain it another way. We cannot and do not convince people that the Church is true. Only God can do that—with their own cooperation. If for one reason or another God decides not to convince someone, then the matter is out of our hands. There is nothing further we can do. We leave that person in the hands of God and move on to the next.

 

[dianaiad]

No, that is not correct. I would not speculate on the faith that you have. I just think you have been misguided or have misinterpreted what you “think” is a witness of the Holy Spirit. Although if that is, in fact, what you believe about us, then I guess we do think the same thing.

Well, here’s the problem; people do love to mock any description of that confirmation of the Holy Ghost in scriptural terms. I have no idea why. It seems to me that if ‘burning in the bosom’ or “hearts burn within us” was good enough for the Apostles of Christ, then this terminology should be good enough for pretty much anybody.

So. If it’s not a ‘burning in the bosom,’ how does the Holy Ghost confirm things to you? A strong conviction of an answer to prayer, perhaps? A Quiet, 'still small voice?" A comforting feeling of hope–of conviction/faith? Aren’t these all different words to describe pretty much the same process?

I can tell you two things: first, if you can’t describe this experience as being different from your everyday understanding of learned facts, you’ve never had that experience of the confirmation of the Holy Ghost. Second, if you can find the precisely correct words to describe that unforgetable and unmistakable experience, then…that’s not the experience you had. Any words we can come up with fall far short of the actual thing.

 

[zerinus]

Since the Holy Spirit confirms the Truth of the Catholic Church to me, you’re right, I do not want to and will not join your church.

That is entirely correct. We wouldn’t expect you to do otherwise.

 

[Jay53]

And how does that contradict the Bible?

God does not have a body of flesh and bones and no one believed this or interpreted any scripture this way until the 4th century (that I can find at least) and this heresy was condemned by the Church at that time.

There is nothing in Scripture that says that God is married to a Heavenly Mother.

I have the witness of the Holy Ghost; Call it what you will.

I’m just trying to understand if this is what you mean or what you mean when you say you “have the witness of the Holy Ghost”. For example, when I was explaining to Parker how the Holy Spirit had confirmed to me that Catholic priests do have the authority to act in persona Christi and forgive sins through the Sacrament of Reconciliation, I explained (paraphrase) how I am filled with a “feeling” of holiness that is indescribable, but is not exactly a “burning in the bosom”. It is more of a total body feeling that encompasses body, mind and soul. Mere words cannot describe it correctly, but I am in no doubt that it is from God. I was just wondering if your experience was something similar or different.

Now you are changing tack. It suggests you are not very sincere in your discussion. At first you were looking for miracles. When I showed you that it was the wrong way, you are now pretending it was something else.

No, I simply asked how someone would know Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. I asked about the Gift of Miracles because that was one thing given to the Apostles by God to aid them in the establishment of His Church. (2 Cor 12:12) That is not the only thing I look for. I think it is only the wrong way if that is the only thing you use and you don’t also use reason and intellect to evalute what the alleged prophet is saying in reference to previous Scriptures already known to be from God.

If you are interested I recommend you to study his history. I don’t believe in trying to prove that Joseph Smith was a prophet by his miracles. I don’t think that would be an appropriate thing to do—with one possible exception—and that is the Book of Mormon. The translation of the Book of Mormon is possibly the greatest miracle he ever performed.

Similar to Muhammad. His miracle is supposedly the Quran. I seem to get the same answers from you that I get from Muslims when I ask how they know that Muhammad is a prophet of God.

Then my answer to him applies to you. I have nothing further to say.

OK. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Jay53]

Well, here’s the problem; people do love to mock any description of that confirmation of the Holy Ghost in scriptural terms. I have no idea why. It seems to me that if ‘burning in the bosom’ or “hearts burn within us” was good enough for the Apostles of Christ, then this terminology should be good enough for pretty much anybody.

So. If it’s not a ‘burning in the bosom,’ how does the Holy Ghost confirm things to you? A strong conviction of an answer to prayer, perhaps? A Quiet, 'still small voice?" A comforting feeling of hope–of conviction/faith? Aren’t these all different words to describe pretty much the same process?

I can tell you two things: first, if you can’t describe this experience as being different from your everyday understanding of learned facts, you’ve never had that experience of the confirmation of the Holy Ghost. Second, if you can find the precisely correct words to describe that unforgetable and unmistakable experience, then…that’s not the experience you had. Any words we can come up with fall far short of the actual thing.

I’m not sure where you got the idea I was mocking anyone or anything?

I have had this experience and am in no doubt that it was from God.

 

[Marie5890]

Well, here’s the problem; people do love to mock any description of that confirmation of the Holy Ghost in scriptural terms. I have no idea why. It seems to me that if ‘burning in the bosom’ or “hearts burn within us” was good enough for the Apostles of Christ, then this terminology should be good enough for pretty much anybody.

So. If it’s not a ‘burning in the bosom,’ how does the Holy Ghost confirm things to you? A strong conviction of an answer to prayer, perhaps? A Quiet, 'still small voice?" A comforting feeling of hope–of conviction/faith? Aren’t these all different words to describe pretty much the same process?

I can tell you two things: first, if you can’t describe this experience as being different from your everyday understanding of learned facts, you’ve never had that experience of the confirmation of the Holy Ghost. Second, if you can find the precisely correct words to describe that unforgetable and unmistakable experience, then…that’s not the experience you had. Any words we can come up with fall far short of the actual thing.

I cant speak to others experiences.

My experiences with the Holy Spirit have less to do with a feeling or sensation but more of an illumination…

Sorta of like when you are a kid and you are struggling to get a concept in math? and you struggle and struggle to try and understand?

The one day, your mind is just clicks and it all becomes clear and makes sense??

There is less of an emotional experience, and more of an intellectual and spiritual clarity…(hard to describe what I mean by intellectual AND spiritual other than to say both are being engaged…the intellect and the spirit…)

It’s like a light going on in the darkness…Not like having an emotional experience watching a tender moment in a movie…

That is my experience…

 

[KathleenGee]

Well now, there is another thing missing…

And that is Our Lord in the Gospel of John has called us to be one.

Like…you have the entire geographic Christian world…whatever…-- meaning you have all types…and diversity (and how we perceive it, correctly or incorrectly–also a cross in itself) when looking out Christianity came out of Israel, and into the surrounding countries…

And then you have a separate geographic entity conglomerated primarily in Utah and surroundings in America…very different take after the work of Joseph Smith…I really don’t want to get into it…but the idea of the remnants of the Jewish people here…no dna, no archeological remnants, no entrustment of their culture passed down…

It is like us against them…that is division…makes me think also of Solomon and the two mothers claiming one baby as hers…and it always seems to be that whatever comes first is the original, the real deal…

We all need to be one in spirit…I don’t think it is a matter of winner or loser…that is hypocrisy…but I just don’t think this kind of difference of outlook should cause such a huge gap of unity…

 

[KathleenGee]

Catholic RCIA,

Your sharings are very spiritual and profound…deep in the spirit…

As far as discernment goes…the first is always check our discernment against the will of God in our daily lives…our vocation and its duties…then we check it against our articles of faith…and our motives…

I would further say where Catholics are different from Mormons, is that Mormons stress that burning emotion…whereas we focus on spiritual detachment and use of reason.

However, this is discipline of our church doctors, St. John of the Cross, S. Catherine of Siena, S. Theresa of Avila, The Little Flower Therese, and others…and attachment to Jesus and the Cross…and alot of every day Catholics aren’t into that and simply go to their parish priest for discernment…others have spiritual directors and these are used when a person is at the ‘y’ of the road of their life or going through some transition…or approaching some unknown period of time of purgation.

 

[zerinus]

God does not have a body of flesh and bones and no one believed this or interpreted any scripture this way until the 4th century (that I can find at least) and this heresy was condemned by the Church at that time.

There is nothing in Scripture that says that God is married to a Heavenly Mother.

It doesn’t contradict it either.

I’m just trying to understand if this is what you mean or what you mean when you say you “have the witness of the Holy Ghost”. For example, when I was explaining to Parker how the Holy Spirit had confirmed to me that Catholic priests do have the authority to act in persona Christi and forgive sins through the Sacrament of Reconciliation, I explained (paraphrase) how I am filled with a “feeling” of holiness that is indescribable, but is not exactly a “burning in the bosom”. It is more of a total body feeling that encompasses body, mind and soul. Mere words cannot describe it correctly, but I am in no doubt that it is from God. I was just wondering if your experience was something similar or different.

The Lord explained the revelation of the Holy Ghost in these words:

D&C 8:

2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

That is how I know. It is not possible to describe it any better than that.

Similar to Muhammad. His miracle is supposedly the Quran. I seem to get the same answers from you that I get from Muslims when I ask how they know that Muhammad is a prophet of God.

If you like. There is more than one similarity between Mormonism and Islam!

 

[Jay53]

It doesn’t contradict it either.

It does. God does not have a body of flesh and bones. The Jews never believed that; the Apostles never believed that; the early Christians never believed that. Like I said, the earliest belief of this I can find is the 4th century and it was decried a heresy. Therefore, it contradicts previous Scripture and the interpretation of that Scripture.

 

[dianaiad]

I’m not sure where you got the idea I was mocking anyone or anything?

It could be the ‘you THINK you have…" part of your response…but the points about mockery wasn’t aimed at you specifically. Just look at the posts on this thread (and others) where "burning in the bosom’ is used–invariably dismissively or with mockery.

I have had this experience and am in no doubt that it was from God.

When one does experience it, this is true. No doubt at all.