Mormon "Apostasy & Restoration"

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You are wrong but I guess it is all you got to try a defend Mormonism. Science distroyed the Book of Mormon and makes Joseph Smith a liar.
Really? Would you care to share with us exactly what it WAS Galleleo was sentence to house arrest for the rest of his life over?

(following are the final paragraphs of the formal sentencing of Galileo Galilei by seven Cardinals, after which Galileo spent the remainder of his life under house arrest:

*We say, pronounce, sentence, and declare that you, the said Galileo, by reason of the matters adduced in trial, and by you confessed as above, have rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely, of having believed and held the doctrine—which is false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures—that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west and that the Earth moves and is not the center of the world; and that an opinion may be held and defended as probably after it has been declared and defined to be contrary to the Holy Scripture; and that consequently you have incurred all the censures and penalties imposed and promulgated in the sacred canons and other constitutions, general and particular, against such delinquents. From which we are content that you be absolved, provided that, first, with a sincere heart and unfeigned faith, you abjure, curse, and detest before use the aforesaid errors and heresies and every other error and heresy contrary to the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church in the form to be prescribed by us for you.

And in order that this your grave and pernicious error and transgression may not remain altogether unpunished and that you may be more cautious in the future and an example to others that they may abstain from similar delinquencies, we ordain that the book of the “Dialogues of Galileo Galilei” be prohibited by public edict.

We condemn you to the formal prison of this Holy office during our pleasure, and by way of salutary penance we enjoin that for three years to come you repeat once a week at the seven penitential Psalms. Reserving to ourselves liberty to moderate, commute or take off, in whole or in part, the aforesaid penalties and penance.

And so we say, pronounce, sentence, declare, ordain, and reserve in this an din any other better way and form which we can and may rightfully employ.*
 
Really? Would you care to share with us exactly what it WAS Galleleo was sentence to house arrest for the rest of his life over?

(following are the final paragraphs of the formal sentencing of Galileo Galilei by seven Cardinals, after which Galileo spent the remainder of his life under house arrest:

*We say, pronounce, sentence, and declare that you, the said Galileo, by reason of the matters adduced in trial, and by you confessed as above, have rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely, of having believed and held the doctrine—which is false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures—that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west and that the Earth moves and is not the center of the world; and that an opinion may be held and defended as probably after it has been declared and defined to be contrary to the Holy Scripture; and that consequently you have incurred all the censures and penalties imposed and promulgated in the sacred canons and other constitutions, general and particular, against such delinquents. From which we are content that you be absolved, provided that, first, with a sincere heart and unfeigned faith, you abjure, curse, and detest before use the aforesaid errors and heresies and every other error and heresy contrary to the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church in the form to be prescribed by us for you.

And in order that this your grave and pernicious error and transgression may not remain altogether unpunished and that you may be more cautious in the future and an example to others that they may abstain from similar delinquencies, we ordain that the book of the “Dialogues of Galileo Galilei” be prohibited by public edict.

We condemn you to the formal prison of this Holy office during our pleasure, and by way of salutary penance we enjoin that for three years to come you repeat once a week at the seven penitential Psalms. Reserving to ourselves liberty to moderate, commute or take off, in whole or in part, the aforesaid penalties and penance.

And so we say, pronounce, sentence, declare, ordain, and reserve in this an din any other better way and form which we can and may rightfully employ.*
I missed something. What does Galileo have to do with the Book of Mormon? :confused: Did I miss part of the conversation?
 
I missed something. What does Galileo have to do with the Book of Mormon? :confused: Did I miss part of the conversation?
OK, I found the reference to Galileo, but I still don’t understand what he has to do with the Book of Mormon. Perhaps when I have time I will need to scroll back farther to find the reference. Unless in the meantime someone else can enlighten me. 😉
 
dianaiad

One thing I find funny (not ha ha) about you is that you always harp about us bringing up things and quotes from the LDS past. In fact you told us not to talk about anything in the LDS history of 100 years or more. Yet you bring up something concerning the Catholic Church 500 years ago. That’s certainly not fair.
 
Everybody here…

I do not take drugs, I am not schizo, I don’t play games, I have a driver’s license with an excellent driving record except a ticket this past year, excellent credit scores…and am no jerk. I don’t wander around and get lost or end up in places I should not be like a whore house or something.

Get it? Same four or five years ago minus 10 pounds…

I have no fear of St. Nick this year or back then with his bag of sticks and spankings.
 
Originally Posted by dianaiad
. Why…y’all actually apologized to Galleleo for convicting him of heresy for daring to say that the earth moved around the sun.

First I want to say to you Diane…run to the Christmas Mass, as it is Christmas itself. I say this with the love of Christ in my heart. It is His Spirit that prompted this not me.
Thank you for the invitation. However, I think I will celebrate Christmas as traditionally as I always do: with my family gathered around, singing carols, exchanging good wishes and gifts, and telling the Christmas story.

I only go to church on Christmas when it occurs on a Sunday.

but you enjoy the Christmas Mass; I understand that it is a particularly beautiful experience.

Diana
 
I’m sorry, but the publications that Rebecca got her qoutes out of…the Journal of Discourses and the ‘Times and Seasons?" You can’t find either one in a Deseret Book store. Or rather, you can find the Journal of Discourses if you order them, and perhaps in the larger ones, but they are several volumes worth of speeches.Selling the “Times and Seasons” in a Deseret Bookstore would be like a Barnes and Noble selling the collected back issues of “Old Richard’s Almanac”’ It’s not really feasable,

…and the texts to both are online and searchable; the copywrite is long expired.
deseretbook.com/item/4954158/Journal_of_Discourses

Rating: http://deseretbook.com/images/star.gif?1251837428 http://deseretbook.com/images/star.gif?1251837428 http://deseretbook.com/images/star.gif?1251837428 http://deseretbook.com/images/star.gif?1251837428 http://deseretbook.com/images/star.gif?1251837428
Great collection!

Travis, UTAH - October 02, 2008

Besides the standard works, seems to be one of the most quoted resourses on gospel subjects in other books and talks.
 
When anybody, any human being hears something very different about how the world is viewed, the first reaction is global warming…I mean, that is a pun…

People in the world thought the world flat…doesn’t matter their class or distinction or what else they believed in…human beings thought the world was flat.

So somebody out there was blessed with a great and gifted mind who began to perceive that the world was not flat, but round. He did more observations and came to the conclusion that the world was indeed round.

When the people of the world heard this, they were astounded…all walks of life…Galileo was correct. And the Church also initially refuted him…the humanity did…

But where Galileo got into trouble was then he entered into the world of theology, not his jurisdiction, he got into it just like people do here on Catholic Answers and he made some wrong assumptions. And he got it just like we all get it here on Catholic Answers.

Since then, ships have sailed the seas, airplanes have flown over the earth…but people think the Catholic Church was still holding it against Galileo that the world was round, insinuating that perhaps the Church privately holds that somehow the world is still flat.

No, it was Galileo’s theological points that were disputed and the politics involved.
That’s not what the judgment said, Kathleen. It didn’t say anything about politics or about slapping Galileo’s hand for getting into theology except for this: that Galileo’s assertion that the earth revolved around the sun, rather than the sun revolving around the earth, was heresy. I posted part of the actual declaration; did you read it?
Same thing with the Spanish Inquisition. Two 1830’s American fundamentalist men got into some records and said true things against the Church but out of context. The Dominicans, the highest ranking religious congregation of men and noted for their fruits of theology, kept objective and painstaking notes of the Inquisition.
I have never said a word about the Spanish Inquisition, Kathleen. Is this a case of 'the wicked flee where no man pursueth? "
Jewish people were allowed to keep their beliefs
Actually…not really. Depending upon the time, the Jews were either forced to convert, forbbidden to convert, or ignored as far as theology is concerned. They WERE, however, pretty much always discriminated against, taxed, force to live where they were told…it’s really not a good idea to brag about how well Jews were treated by the Christians throughout the ages, y’know?
Spain had been plundered by the Moors for over 700 years and there was a time that dhimmitude was forced on the Spanish Catholic population. It has been said that oftentimes the victim becomes like the abuser, and I heard that reference to Spain by my Far East teacher, non-Catholic, many years ago when I was in high school…I read a little of Spain’s history and it has been brutal.
Y’know, when I hear someone excuse the MMM using that logic, I’ll let you guys get away with it. …
But the issue of the Spanish Inquisition was that non-Catholics were receiving the Eucharist without faith and that is a sacrilege.
What IS it with the Spanish Inquisition? You are going to force me to go and do research. Trust me, Kathleen, you don’t want me doing that. 😉

Kathleen, you wrote several things in this post that I’m not going to respond to this evening, but rest assured that I read them. I just don’t quite know what they have to do with either the thread as a whole or what we have been talking about specifically.
 
I missed something. What does Galileo have to do with the Book of Mormon? :confused: Did I miss part of the conversation?
yep.

But don’t worry about it. It’ll go in a different direction again soon enough. 😉
 
dianaiad

One thing I find funny (not ha ha) about you is that you always harp about us bringing up things and quotes from the LDS past. In fact you told us not to talk about anything in the LDS history of 100 years or more. Yet you bring up something concerning the Catholic Church 500 years ago. That’s certainly not fair.
Ah, no, my friend, I have not told you not 'to talk about anything in the LDS history of 100 years or more" ago. I simply remind you that it WAS a hundred years ago. When a Catholic has to go that far back to find evidence for something he claims is happening NOW, or that is indicative of what we write or think NOW, I think it’s fair to remind people that a hundred years or more ago comprises at least three full generations of writers and thinkers.

I especially get…annoyed…when Catholics (or anybody else) has to go back that far to find evidence of wrong doing, when they are doing precisely the same thing right now.

I get doubly annoyed when people go back into our history to find evidence of wrong doing and use that evidence as ‘proof’ that our beliefs are wrong–when their own history is full of exactly the same sort of wrong doing–frequently multiplied by factors of 10 or more. Then they claim that it’s ok for THEM to have a long, bloody, racist history…after all, their church is true. However, a far less egregious history on our part (they claim) proves that our beliefs are false.

Now if you can’t see the problem with that, I can.

Rico, one thing you will have to admit if you do any research into my posting here; I never, ever, start things. That is, if I go into Catholic history, it is ONLY after a Catholic has done something dumb–like claiming that Mormons are evil/false/whatever BECAUSE of our history.

Doing something like that makes the accuser fair game, y’know.
 
Everybody here…

I do not take drugs, I am not schizo, I don’t play games, I have a driver’s license with an excellent driving record except a ticket this past year, excellent credit scores…and am no jerk. I don’t wander around and get lost or end up in places I should not be like a whore house or something.

Get it? Same four or five years ago minus 10 pounds…

I have no fear of St. Nick this year or back then with his bag of sticks and spankings.
Kathleen,

WHAT?

I don’t know anybody who has accused you of being any of the above. You made an error. You remember something incorrectly. It happens to the sanest of us.
 
Rebecca. you know better than this.

I already MENTIONED that you could order the Journal of Discourses from the Deseret Book store. I already said that the larger stores might carry them. I mentioned also that they were a rather large set; a 27 volume set of books, that you can buy for a mere $600. (OK, $599.99).

The quote you used, though…that was dishonest of you. You made it look as if it were part of the description of the book; that it was a claim made by Deseret Books…and it was not. It was part of a CUSTOMER REVIEW, and as it happens, he is wrong.

I have found over the years that the people who quote the JoD the most are folks like you. The anti’s. Everybody else likes the Ensign…and C.S. Lewis. 😉
 
Rebecca. you know better than this.

I already MENTIONED that you could order the Journal of Discourses from the Deseret Book store. I already said that the larger stores might carry them. I mentioned also that they were a rather large set; a 27 volume set of books, that you can buy for a mere $600. (OK, $599.99).

The quote you used, though…that was dishonest of you. You made it look as if it were part of the description of the book; that it was a claim made by Deseret Books…and it was not. It was part of a CUSTOMER REVIEW, and as it happens, he is wrong.

I have found over the years that the people who quote the JoD the most are folks like you. The anti’s. Everybody else likes the Ensign…and C.S. Lewis. 😉
uh yeah, right. Most people know a review is not a description. Most people know that DB would pull a review that wasn’t “faith promoting”.

google for journal of discourses at lds.org…10,600 hits…most often quoted in the Ensign

google for times and seasons at lds.org…1,680 hits
google for cs lewis at lds.org…676 hits

So who is being deceptive?
 
uh yeah, right. Most people know a review is not a description. Most people know that DB would pull a review that wasn’t “faith promoting”.

google for journal of discourses at lds.org…10,600 hits…most often quoted in the Ensign

google for times and seasons at lds.org…1,680 hits
google for cs lewis at lds.org…676 hits

So who is being deceptive?
You are, my friend. “most people know?” REALLY?

But look…in 12 minutes it will be Christmas Day. I’d like to simply wish you a Merry and blessed Christmas, and let’s put this whole thing on hold for a bit.

Diana
 
Final truth.

The book was in the Deseret store. I was unable to go back and recheck the title because it was pulled…so the authorities got rid of it. Good.

But it hurt. I never went on a Mormon thread before…so the first thing that came up was what I read…
 
Our liturgy goes back 2,000 years. It is the fulfillment of the Jewish liturgy. We have the greatest library in the world, have done more for humanity than any other organization in the construction of cathedrals, schools, universities, hospitals, art and culture, music, science, and other disciplines. We are a kingdom of our own but not of this world.
dianaiad;6073592:
On the other hand, it is also true that in some things, like, oh…slavery and racial discrimination, and education…you guys got a very slow start. In fact, as far as slavery is concerned, you had such a slow start because y’all had to create much of the problem you are now patting yourselves on the back for solving. …but never mind that. You HAVE done more for the world; more cathedrals, certainly–abbeys and monestaries…the riches of the world found their way to these places, this is very true. Science? Well…you are a lot better about that than you used to be, that’s certain. Why…y’all actually apologized to Galleleo for convicting him of heresy for daring to say that the earth moved around the sun. Mind you, it took 360 years, (y’all finally got around to it in 1992) but you DID manage to finally admit that the earth orbits the sun.
Rico, one thing you will have to admit if you do any research into my posting here; I never, ever, start things. That is, if I go into Catholic history, it is ONLY after a Catholic has done something dumb–like claiming that Mormons are evil/false/whatever BECAUSE of our history.

Doing something like that makes the accuser fair game, y’know.
 
As to a restoration, I would spend some quality time here:
http://www.catholic.org/saints/stindex.php

I was blown away when I started to read these stories. Never told about anyone of them,… who would hide these Christians? And what would the motive be to hide them?

Why would anyone want to restore, or think the Catholic Church needed to be restored when its whole earthy mission has always been to restore all of us through Christ? With Saints like these it is obvious that Christ knows how to build well,… His Church. They all point to Him.

The Saints lives are connected to the One Body of Christ.

Who are your favorite Saints?

What quotes have you come to cherish?

What is their common bond?

I think this will go a long way to seeing what had to be restored. If you did not know the Christian family of believers, their personal stories, how they responded to Jesus would you really care about them? What happens when you fall in love in Christ, with this family of believers?

When it becomes divine pride melts away. What you find is love, forgiveness and reconciliation. This has no need for restoration, its the Church, Christ’s Sacraments that restore us. This Church will never fail because it was built on love itself.

The one thing I know about Christmas is that you cannot look into the baby Jesus’ eyes without seeing His Cross. This is Gods Christmas gift to us. I know this because I was at Christmas. It was after the Christmas Mass that we all gave thanks and praise for what we had just encountered one more time together. You cannot have the fulness of Christmas without Christ_Mass. Its the why and reason for the season.
God Bless
www.utahmission.com
 
Thank you, Christian RCIA,

My favorite is St. Bernadette because she was so humble and sweet. She is also an incorruptible and I wonder how many Mormons have done a search to see her picture. She is more beautiful in death. She never lost her baptismal promises because she never intended to sin.

The Catholic Church did not start out reactionary per se…it did address the old laws…but the main focus was new life, the Good News in Jesus Christ.
 
Final truth.

The book was in the Deseret store. I was unable to go back and recheck the title because it was pulled…so the authorities got rid of it. Good.

But it hurt. I never went on a Mormon thread before…so the first thing that came up was what I read…
Final truth:

According to your own words,when you went back to the store you didn’t find it and the clerks didn’t recognise the name of the book.

…the book you claimed was “the Pearl of Great Price.”

“The Pearl of Great Price” has NOT been pulled, and since it is one of the four Standard Works of the church, is absolutely a title that the clerks would have known.

The possibilities are:
  1. You read this language in a book somewhere, and mistakenly remember it as coming from a book you looked at in the Deseret Bookstore–and for some reason do not now want to admit to a very understandable and human error that happens to everybody.
  2. You read this language in a publication you picked up at the Deseret Bookstore, but that was not actually being sold by them; in fact, it was placed there by some critic. (This happens…not frequently, but it happens). In that case, the clerks would not recognize the book, and since it didn’t belong to the store in the first place, the store could not have ‘pulled’ it.
  3. Some portion of what you say is true, but you have exagerated some parts of it to make the story sound better and now can’t admit the truth because doing so would be embarrassing.
  4. You are repeating something you read third hand, and, having trusted that source, presented it as something that happened to you personally. Since your third hand source of information has been proven incorrect, you are between a rock and hard place…you can’t admit that you changed POV now, can you?
  5. Some combination of the above.
What has been absolutely proven to be NOT true, however, is that you read that language in “The Pearl of Great Price,” (or even any commentary about “The Pearl of Great Price”), and that you went back in two weeks to find that the clerks didn’t recognize the name of the book, and had ‘pulled’ it. (a contradictory statement all by itself, if you think about it; if they had “pulled” it, they would have remembered the title.)–or that the SLC church general headquarters didn’t recognise “The Pearl of Great Price.”

After doing some research into the specific language that you were upset about, and looking into LDS authored publications that might have equivalent language in it, here are two theories I’ve come up with—because I simply can’t imagine that you are simply lying. You don’t seem the sort who would. I think you are honestly convinced of this…you are simply incorrect.

I think you got hold of some anti-Catholic rhetoric somewhere else, along with anti-Mormon rhetoric, and, primed by what you read, saw what you expected to see in some publication somewhere. When you went back two weeks later, of course the clerks didn’t remember the publication and didn’t recognise the name of the book, because it never actually existed the way you remember it. Nobody can “pull” that which never existed in the first place, Kathleen.

Now, here, you remember it as being “The Pearl of Great Price,” because that’s a name that ‘sticks.’ It’s not the name of the publication you actually read OR asked about.

I distinctly remember being not quite three years old, sitting in the back seat of a car, jumping up and saying “BOO!” to my mother and my aunt Bonnie just as they were about to drive into a tunnel under rail road tracks. I REMEMBER that. For years I would tell that story as my 'earliest childhood memory." Many, many years later, when I was in my twenties, my mother heard me tell that story–and she pulled me aside and told me that the story was true—except that it was my little sister who yelled ‘boo,’ not me. Aunt Bonnie confirmed this–and my sister doesn’t remember it at all. Mom and Aunt Bonnie told the story often when I was little, because it almost made them lose control of the car; my sister wasn’t yet one. The story made such an impression on me that I internalized it. Even though I know I wasn’t the ‘boo-er,’ I still REMEMBER it that way.

This is what I think has happened to you, in a way.

But you are incorrect. The Pearl of Great Price has no such language in it. The Deseret Book store has not pulled ANY books with that sort of langauge in it. The only quotes with equivalent language in it are still availiable, as a part of church history…and the specific terminology you remember is only used by some extremely anti-Catholic fundamentalist evangilistic groups—and not Mormons.

…no Mormon has written or said anything remotely like it in over a 100 years, and most of 'em knew better THEN.

And THAT, Katheen, is the final truth.

If my theory about what happened to you is not accurate, the only other possibility I can think of is not flattering.
 
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