Mormon "Apostasy & Restoration"

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Yes, I do see theirs as culturally driven.

As they see the apostles as failures, they likewise are blind to the culturally driven and integrative work of the Holy Spirit since Pentecost.

This is another reason I am very tentative of dialoguing much any more regarding Mormonism.

I do not justify anyone mistreating a Mormon person for their beliefs…but the beliefs are so far out…This ongoing willful belief in such positions is puzzling as well.

And if they change their creeds after people come in and are put bondage for fear of damnation for leaving…it is just that more fraudulent and sinister…There are also those who can leave freely with little problems…

I think the Mormon leadership has been studying the Catholic Church American bishops’ culture…to get some more of that power…

They won’t get it…because the power is not of ourselves…ask any cleric, and he knows he is powerless…he is an intercessor…the power is from Jesus Christ alone.

It is Jesus Christ who sustains the church, not man.

America is a religious country, and for that I am very grateful…I wish we were more united as Christians, though.
 
Back to my previous post…I looked at the Pearl of Great Price and then I picked up another book on the Mormon doctrines…I knew of McConkie then but did not read anything from him as I know where he was, studying some things online.

I did not know of Pratt until you mentioned him…

The Pearl of Great Price was not at all what I expected…and it was shortly after that I didn’t bother any more and let go…too different.
 
Rebecca,

Please check out Hebrewcatholic.org. They are a great spiritual help in aiding us to further understand our Hebrew roots…

I am using Hebrew now instead of Jewish…as one said, it was the Hebrews who kept their faith open to God above anything else.
 
KathleenGee said:
It is Jesus Christ who sustains the church, not man.
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This is, I think, one of the most defining differences between the two beliefs. We understand that we are very dependent upon Christ. We are nothing and have nothing without Him.

LDS view that we (Catholics) are dependent upon ourselves, and so they will make lists that show where our dependence upon ourselves has caused Christ’s Church to fail.

They view themselves as very dependent upon their own worthiness, and not that of Christ’s. Yet, they believe that this dependence will not fail for them.

🤷
 
Yes, I saw that in my private studies from sharings of Mormons on the internet…

For us, these sects are seen as man made religions.

Put not your trust in man…and all the more ours is a gathering of faith, not based on any one man but a gathering of believers in Christ Jesus.
 
Rebecca

BTW, looking at the references of what is The Pearl of Great Price and the Book of Mormon Doctrine…I don’t know how Pratt got into them…do you know which book had his writings…

also, you may recognize this…but in one of those readings, after points of belief were made, there was this expression…‘psshta’…or something like that…do you know what I am talking about? I saw that written alot in phrases and I don’t know what it means.

Also, which of those books use that phrase?

I am trying to find out how the Pratt material got in to those book as I recall actually looking at the Pearl book, glancing over to the Mormon book and scanning it to I came to parts about other churches…I looked at a children’s book on Joseph Smith in cartoon form…trying to recall…

Finally there has been some clips to this thread and I wondered if they dealt with my issue…there was one that came up today or yesterday and now it is gone…do you know what is happening here?

I also saw a clip come on to another Mormon thread.
 
KathleenGee said:
Rebecca

BTW, looking at the references of what is The Pearl of Great Price and the Book of Mormon Doctrine…I don’t know how Pratt got into them…do you know which book had his writings…
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Neither of these books have Orson Pratt’s writings in them. He wrote many pamphlets, letters and sermons. His sermons can be found in the “Journal of Discourses”, “The Millenial Star” (a LDS periodical no longer in print) and quoted in many books and LDS printed resources. There is also a book, “Orson Pratt’s Works” that was published in 1851.
also, you may recognize this…but in one of those readings, after points of belief were made, there was this expression…‘psshta’…or something like that…do you know what I am talking about? I saw that written alot in phrases and I don’t know what it means.
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Also, which of those books use that phrase?
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I’ve never seen this before.
I am trying to find out how the Pratt material got in to those book as I recall actually looking at the Pearl book, glancing over to the Mormon book and scanning it to I came to parts about other churches…I looked at a children’s book on Joseph Smith in cartoon form…trying to recall…
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I don’t know which books you are using.
Finally there has been some clips to this thread and I wondered if they dealt with my issue…there was one that came up today or yesterday and now it is gone…do you know what is happening here?
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I also saw a clip come on to another Mormon thread.
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People can attach documents or images to a post. When there is one in a thread, you see the clip. If you click on it the attachment opens. If they were there before, and are now gone, most likely a moderator removed them.
 
I believe I just looked at the most two…I think the Pearl of Great Price was in a green cover and the Mormon doctrines in dark blue or black…

I don’t know either how Pratt was in them…I wondered that with the use of that expression ‘psshta’ or something like that was reflective of an older version…
 
KathleenGee said:
I believe I just looked at the most two…I think the Pearl of Great Price was in a green cover and the Mormon doctrines in dark blue or black…

I don’t know either how Pratt was in them…I wondered that with the use of that expression ‘psshta’ or something like that was reflective of an older version…
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I don’t know what book you had. The writings that came to be “The Pearl of Great Price” were published and collected by individuals. Both Pratts produced many written works, often quoting things written or said by Joseph Smith, and sometimes applying a liberal edit.

Both Pratts (Parley and Orson) had a direct hand, at different times, in the development of the PoGP. Parley Pratt had republished Smith’s teachings from “Times and Seasons”, and edited them for the “Millennial Star” in the UK. His publications, and other material, was used by Franklin D Richards in the creation of the first Pearl of Great Price (not canonized). Thirty years late Orson Pratt was put over the operation of editing and reprinting Richard’s work. This is the point the PoGP was canonized. Later came James Talmage, who’s writings are without a doubt, anti-Catholic. He edited and revised the original PoGP to the content and format it has today.

If anyone were compiling early LDS interpretations and/or commentary on the Pearl of Great Price, it is inevitable that the writings of Orson Pratt and James Talmage would be a part of that compilation.
 
I have been wondering, then, if it was an older book, because of use of that strange word, ‘psshta’, or something like it…
 
rinnie said:
Okay. You claim that you do not belive that the CC was founded on Peter, Now, here is the problem, what do you do with the scripture that says: You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church? Now that scripture (the word if God may I remind you) disagrees with you. How do you explain that?
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That scripture is taken out of context. The previous verse states this: In context, the verse you quote is this:
*
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say aye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.*

So, “how we explain it” is: “this rock” refers, not to Peter the man, but to the revelation by which Peter was able to know that Jesus is the Christ. It makes more sense linguistically for “this rock” to refer back to revelation than it does for it to refer to Peter…else the verse about revelation would mean nothing–something to be ignored.

…which, I notice, many people do.

But it was important enough for Matthew to include it, and to emphasize it…so that’s what we believe.
 
rinnie said:
I agree. And also here is a important point here. The LDS has changed alot of their teachings in the years.

One of my favoirite is the military, they can serve, then they cannot etc.
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Interesting…I’m not aware of any time during which Mormons could not serve in the military. In fact, we were serving in the military, making the longest military march in recorded US military history, at the same time our nation was kicking us out of her borders.

But carry on…let us by all means not let facts get in the way of a good argument.
rinnie said:
But the point is and should be anyway none of the teaching’s of the RCC has never changed.
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You are quite right. None of the teachings of the RCC have never changed.
rinnie said:
Why? Because we still go by the word of Jesus Christ. Not JS. ANother true reason for us to see that Joseph Smith was not led by the Power of the Holy Spirit. JS was wrong. The HS never is:D
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You are quite correct. The Holy Spirit…the Holy Ghost, never is wrong. You, however, are.

If you would expand on your claim that we have changed our beliefs in terms of military service, for instance, I would be interested.
 
KathleenGee said:
When I was reading their sources, reading Joseph Smith’s construct that the church is an abomination and its believers corrupt…I see the former reference saying it was in the Pearl of Great Price…

Looking at sources, I also scanned the parts regarding Mormon Doctrines…I used to be a speed reader…used to…and came to those passages in Nephri…

The whole construct of Mormonism in Smith’s leading statement makes me think he had no contact with Catholicism…and the use of abomination was like that of others in his day…I did see the passages on Pratt and some others…I knew McConkie was recent.

Reading the construct of Mormonism in itself can’t be true because it is entirely condemning without any knowledge…I don’t think Joseph Smith even knew anything about Catholicism than the mindset of that…,just the use of abomination reflects the era…

I don’t think he knew anything of Catholicism or let alone have any understanding of it, and he certainly was no academic.

When I went online, there was a document that said the Mormon Church has changed its position 3,000 times…

And this is why I made previous comments that the Mormon church is becoming standardized and more mainline…

So I am wanting to find out today, 2009, what their creed is now.
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You can find our ‘creed’ or articles of Faith, IN the Pearl of Great Price, Kathleen, under the heading 'Articles of Faith."

They were written by Joseph Smith and have not changed. We still believe in them precisely the way we did when they were written.

As to the 3000 changes, those are not ‘changes in position,’ but 'changes in the Book of Mormon"…and that is closer to 4000. It’s a fun number. It’s the number you get when you correct all the spelling and punctuation errors of that first, hurriedly publicized, edition, and assign verse numbers to paragraphs. In reality, there have only been about six changes in the Book of Mormon that can be termed “substantive,” and all six were changes from the publicized edition to what the original manuscript stated…and were thus ‘typos.’

In all, the BoM “changes” add up to considerably less than biblical alterations…shoot, the Johanine comma all by itself outdoes the BoM for ‘changing’ stuff. 😉

All that said, if there ARE changes to our doctrine and policies (not doctrine so much, but yes, we have changed our policies), then we at least can claim to have prophets who receive direct revelation from God to do so.

So…pointing out to an organization that believes in continuous revelation complete with prophets that something has changed with them is a little silly. Of course we do—that’s what ‘continuing revelation’ is all about.

your accusation about change could cause a problem to those who claim that the canon is closed and that no such revelation may be recieved, but it’s not a problem for us.
 
SteveVH said:
Dianaiad:

Well then, thank you for trying to be so understanding. You have still avoided my question by taking this on another tangent and trying to place the burden on me to explain my faith position. I did that.

Now, will you please answer my question? Very simply, how important is this concept of “the burning in the bosom” to the Mormon faith? I think I, and others, have demonstrated that anyone can make the claim that it is God speaking to them which means it is no evidence at all of the legitimacy of your beliefs.
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I am NOT avoiding the question at all, Steve. I am, actually, taking it straight on by asking you how you know that Jesus is the Christ, or that the bible is true. There is a bottom line for you that is the 'convincer." What is that? Please don’t take this as an attempt to avoid the question. It isn’t. It really isn’t.

You want to know how important the witness of the Holy Ghost is to us, as Mormons?

It is all important.

…what I am trying to show you is that it is all important to you, too. It HAS to be, else you have no testimony of any truth, and can be convinced away from your faith by any good intellectual argument.
 
dianaiad said:
Interesting…I’m not aware of any time during which Mormons could not serve in the military. In fact, we were serving in the military, making the longest military march in recorded US military history, at the same time our nation was kicking us out of her borders.

But carry on…let us by all means not let facts get in the way of a good argument.

You are quite right. None of the teachings of the RCC have never changed.

You are quite correct. The Holy Spirit…the Holy Ghost, never is wrong. You, however, are.

If you would expand on your claim that we have changed our beliefs in terms of military service, for instance, I would be interested.
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Lets go with the Christian Creed if we can. Go ahead and read the Scriptures attached to the Creed. Comment on them if you wish. How does the spirit move you so to speak.

Let me say this first before you read the Christian Creed.

The most important change your church has made was replacing the one and only Christian God with a line of gods thus abandoning the Christian Creed, which according to your own faith is an abomination. But remember its not an abomination to the one Billion Catholics and countless of other Christian sects such as the Baptist, Lutherans, Methodist etc… all part of the One Body of Christ.

Can you tell us which part of this Creed is an abomination to you personanlly? Where does it hurt you inside, what is it that you hate about it, as one of the LDS faith. Joseph Smith must have had something about this Creed that he hated as well. Something that he shared with an angel, ot that the angel shared with him.

We Believe…
in one God, (Ex 20:2-3, Is 45:5, 1 Cor 8:4) the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, (Gen 14:19, Ex 20:2-3) of all that is seen and unseen. (Col 1:16)

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, (Luke 1:35) begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God. Begotten not made, one in being with the Father. (Heb 1:3) Through Him all things were made. (John 1:2-3, Col 1:15-17))

For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven: (John 3:13) by the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, (Matt 1:18) and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; (John 19:16) he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; (1Cor 15:3-4) he ascended into heaven (Luke 24:51) and is seated at the right hand of the Father. (Col 3:1) He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, (2 Tim 4:1) and his Kingdom will have no end. (Luke 1:33)

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, (Acts 2:17) who proceeds from the Father and the Son. (John 14:16) With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. (1 Peter 1:10-11)

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. (Rom 12:5) We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.(Acts 2:38) We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the life of the world to come. (Rom 6:5) Amen
www.utahmission.com
 
dianaiad said:
You can find our ‘creed’ or articles of Faith, IN the Pearl of Great Price, Kathleen, under the heading 'Articles of Faith."

They were written by Joseph Smith and have not changed. .
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This is one of the first writings I read regarding the Catholic Church. I would love you to comment on it after you comment on the Christian Creed. I see Holy Spirit all over this writing. Very Catholic in nature…common bonds with many I meet in the Church.

Our Lord did not come for the sake of those who are well, but for those who are in need. The soul that is lost interest Him far more than the ninety-nine that are just; the venturesome lamb that has fallen into the pit, far more that the flock that has returned dutifully home; the coin that has rolled behind the furniture, far more than the fortune of the cash-box.

His interest is in the prodigals: Mary Magdalene, the women taken in adultery, Zacchaeus the publican, Simon the Pharisee, Barabbas, and His companions on the cross. The preferences of all Christians should be of the same kind. But what integrity this demands, what moral beauty, what sanctity! Some, perhaps, may be tempted to escape the corrosive or weakening effect of such surroundings by avoiding to much contact with the masses, by seeking only the company of their friends, of those who think like them and to whom they feel more readily attracted. It is so much more pleasant to consort with those who are like you, and with whom you have ideals and interest in common.

Such a method is disastrous. If the leaven is to act upon the mass, it must be mingled with it. If it is separate from the mass, it forgets its proper task. It is a leading axiom in Catholic action not to remove good elements from the surroundings in which they exist, but rather to sanctify them so that they may serve to elevate and improve their fellows. In order to act effectively upon one’s surroundings, one must live in those surroundings; and, given the necessary virtue and power of action, the closer the contact, the greater the influence will be.

It is not literally true that is has been said of us: “You are gods,” and that we are to become “sons of God”? Let us give to these expressions their full Christian meaning. First and foremost, the baptized must learn to appreciate the incomparable privileges they have received by the sacrament which, in making them Christians, has brought the Blessed Trinity to dwell in their souls, and given them power to live the divine life, if only they will, and so long as they will. Let us lift up our heads and bear proudly the proud dignity of our Baptism.

How few of the baptized appreciate the essence of all revelations: that God dwells in the man who is in the state of grace? This is the campaign that is most urgently needed: to help each and every one to Realize fully, perhaps for the first time, the divine dignity that Baptism confers by engrafting us upon Christ Himself making us a living member of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, communicating to us the very life of the Blessed Trinity, making us partners in the royal priesthood of Christ and His Church, uniting us in a common kinship with all our baptized brethren by this spiritual solidarity, which is the Communion of Saints, consecrating us as living chalices, as living temples to the personal and social worship of the true God.
 
catholic-rcia said:
Lets go with the Christian Creed if we can. Go ahead and read the Scriptures attached to the Creed. Comment on them if you wish. How does the spirit move you so to speak.

Let me say this first before you read the Christian Creed.

The most important change your church has made was replacing the one and only Christian God with a line of gods thus abandoning the Christian Creed, which according to your own faith is an abomination. But remember its not an abomination to the one Billion Catholics and countless of other Christian sects such as the Baptist, Lutherans, Methodist etc… all part of the One Body of Christ.
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It wasn’t the mormon faith that declared other creeds an abomination. It was heavenly father who made that declaration. Thus, the need for a restoration. Why would there be a need for a restoration if the creeds were not an abomination?

The protestant faiths that allow same sex marriage or woman priests do seem to have creeds that god may consider to be an abomination now. And if we look into the history of protestantism and catholicism, we can see some aspects of abominations that were committed in their histories.

The question is: would god consider their creeds an abomination. This is where the debate should begin.
 
rinnie said:
Okay. You claim that you do not belive that the CC was founded on Peter, Now, here is the problem, what do you do with the scripture that says: You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church? Now that scripture (the word if God may I remind you) disagrees with you. How do you explain that?
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Matthew 16:18 would only apply when deciding between Churches with a historical claim to be the Church started by Christ (Apostolic succession). Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, and protestants were all started by a human as part of a rebellion against Christ’s Church. They can claim that ‘the rock’ was anything they want, but history already proves it was not the human that started their churches. As it applies to this thread, Joseph Smith started the latter day saint movement 1800 years after Christ, so as a historical fact it was not started by Christ. He claims to have restored a church which had beliefs and practices which were never part of Christianity.
 
I told Rebecca I had spent time looking at the reference she gave me…I am not so good with computers and it works better with me one reference at a time.

I was probably looking at old text of Pearl of Great Price as mentioned earlier…

About change…There was that president in 1997 who said he was rethinking the position of the Mormon Church on Catholicism…that is a great change because the construct indirectly refers to the Church as an abomination and we the people, the believers, corrupt.

I noticed in the writing of today on the topic, ‘Church’, that they are not referring to priests, or popes or bishops or saints…but to professors and others who brought corruption to the faith.

They speak of their relationship with Jesus Christ – I look at the intent of the heart — and take out the theology, and this is where I believe I encountered the same Christ with the Mormons…and they shared on Revelations with me and I shared the very same perception they did!

So I am referring to the Babel of Language…there is a prayer in the Liturgy of the Hours…I don’t have direct quote…but it does refer to the issue of Babel…of language…the veil of language and the desire that we be brothers and sisters.

As far as creed goes, I am waiting for a response and will see what is the same…I hear you Dianaid that it doesn’t change from Joseph Smith…I also uphold the integrity of truth in my own church…

But I also think, when looking at the complete fracturing of Christianity due to individualism, etc., I truly believe that every denomination, every congregation…if we were all one…and right now all we can do is be in dialogue and share…even differences…we profess the fullness of Christ lived out for this time…I believe true Christianity is constantly growing closer in its image to Christ…no matter the numbers…this idea is upheld in Vatican II.

So I believe that true restoration in our Christianity begins with all of us becoming one here, now, today…in intent, if not in creed and practice…
 
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