Mormon "Apostasy & Restoration"

[dianaiad]

You’re kidding, right?

Well, no. See my response to Viki’s question, in post # 551:

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dianaiad:

vickimonica:

Quick question to whoever can answer this - Why do mormons cross their arms/fold their arms when they pray?

That’s a good question. I don’t know if there is an ‘official’ answer, but I was always told to do this as it shows respect and humility; a quiet acceptance of any answer. It’s tradition. Some people genuflect, some put their hands together,

Why do Catholics put their hands together/fold them when they pray? Why do some people raise their faces and hands to the sky?

I’ve never actually thought about it, y’know? I just do it…though not every time I pray. sometimes it’s just my hands folded in my lap. Sometimes–I have both hands on the steering wheel, or I’m holding my kid–

hmnn.

I really haven’t ever thought about it. It never seemed to be all that intrinsic to the idea of prayer, y’know?

diana

So no. I’m not kidding.

 

[Jerusha]

As far as apostasy is concerned, as far as I am concerned, the Mormon sect is what is apostate, not the Catholic Church. And what exactly was ‘restored’ with the Mormon sect? Part of Satan’s kingdom??

Agreed. That is one reason why I have given up on debating with them. It is useless to argue with them on matters of faith that cannot be proved or disproved objectively. Unfortunately, they think that they still have the right to engage us in argument over such matters.

The hard-core LDS who enter this forum only want to engage in hostility, even if it is useless. All it does is help their self-definition as “suffering saints”

 

[dianaiad]

Answersplease6139833:

Originally Posted by dianaiad

If you will go back to my initial answer to her question, you will know that I did not consider it to BE an ‘anti-mormon plot,’ Rebecca.

Originally Posted by dianaiad

…in my over 40 years of dealing with critics of the CoJCoLDS, and with anti-Mormons…

…I have never found that a question like that, asked by an ex-Mormon, is ever anything but a troll; a plant designed to promote mockery or derision.

Both statements are accurate, Answers Please. What do you think happened between my initial response to her question and the second quote from me?

I’ll help; I love analogies, as most of you are aware–and probably heartily sick–of. Imagine someone going into a “Christian” forum (one that has questions like “I am a Catholic, why shoudl I consider becoming a Christian?” …and I promise that this is NOT a ‘made up’ question, as ludicrous as it sounds). Now imagine that someone goes to their 'non-Christian religions" forum, and asks “Can anyone here tell me why Catholics light candles?”

Consider this question, and the probable reason behind it, according to who asks it.

One person knows little about the Catholic faith, and is honestly curious; he’s a Christian, this is a Christian website; he thinks he might find the answer here.

Another person is an ex-Catholic–had been a Catholic for 22 years, and has chosen to ask that question on a forum that contains anti-Catholic rhetoric, and has, mostly, non-Catholic and anti-Catholic members. (The two are not the same.)

Be honest with yourself.

 

[dianaiad]

As far as apostasy is concerned, as far as I am concerned, the Mormon sect is what is apostate, not the Catholic Church. And what exactly was ‘restored’ with the Mormon sect? Part of Satan’s kingdom??

Are you calling Mormonism Satanic?

 

[Xavierlives]

Are you calling Mormonism Satanic?

What does Jesus say in John 8?

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

 

[vickimonica]

Both statements are accurate, Answers Please. What do you think happened between my initial response to her question and the second quote from me?

I’ll help; I love analogies, as most of you are aware–and probably heartily sick–of. Imagine someone going into a “Christian” forum (one that has questions like “I am a Catholic, why shoudl I consider becoming a Christian?” …and I promise that this is NOT a ‘made up’ question, as ludicrous as it sounds). Now imagine that someone goes to their 'non-Christian religions" forum, and asks “Can anyone here tell me why Catholics light candles?”

Consider this question, and the probable reason behind it, according to who asks it.

One person knows little about the Catholic faith, and is honestly curious; he’s a Christian, this is a Christian website; he thinks he might find the answer here.

Another person is an ex-Catholic–had been a Catholic for 22 years, and has chosen to ask that question on a forum that contains anti-Catholic rhetoric, and has, mostly, non-Catholic and anti-Catholic members. (The two are not the same.)

Be honest with yourself.

 

[vickimonica]

Why Diane dear - There was a method to my madness… I was a mormon for 22 years (not 22 years old as you put in a post) and I seriously didn’t know the answer to that question. As Rebecca pointed out, I never even thought about it until I became a Catholic… I know that for whatever reason, you LIVE on this site, and that you would be the FIRST PERSON to attempt to answer the question. Gee!!! I was correct in assuming that!!! As I said before, you have WAY too much time on your hands…

 

[vickimonica]

Hmmm… good idea!

Because I know that Diane is a mormon, and she is ALWAYS on here, and that she would answer it. And Gee, I was correct in assuming this!!! She was the 1st person to jump on this…

 

[Xavierlives]

Because I know that Diane is a mormon, and she is ALWAYS on here, and that she would answer it. And Gee, I was correct in assuming this!!! She was the 1st person to jump on this…

lol… no I meant, maybe it is a good idea that we take the mission work to them and not expect the mission work to come to us.

I just hope she uses the same name!

 

[TheosisM]

I think that this is only problematic for those that believe that public revelation ended with the appearance of Christ. Since Catholics believe that public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle, this is not an issue. So I think I agree with you that, if they are presented as proof of no more revelation, it doesn’t work. When people say that public revelation ended with Jesus Christ, they need to be specific as to what they mean, especially if Hebrews 1:1-2 is being used.

Not necessarily, since my reason for referencing it was simply to point out what it clearly says: that in the past, God spoke in parts through the prophets, and in these last days, He has spoken in full through Jesus Christ. The question is, what does that mean?

Could you please explain why it counts? I have heard much speculation that the Proclamation may be added to the D&C. Is it seen as “new” information? It really seems to be a statement of faith on things that LDS have believed for quite some time. I could be wrong, please explain the context of the Proclamation as it relates to public revelation. How do you know that GBH was speaking as a prophet when this came out, and since it hasn’t been declared canonized scripture, are there any other examples of President Hinckley receiving public revelation that is canonized scripture? What about Ezra Taft Benson and Howard Hunter? Did they receive public revelation that became canonized scripture? How does this relate to them being sustained as “prophets, seers, and revelators”? Indeed, there are 15 “prophets, seers, and revelators” in the LDS church, right?

Related question: If only the President is entitled to receive revelation for the entire church, who do the members of the Quorum of the Twelve receive revelation for? The president is the prophet for the entire church, who are the Twelve (and the rest of the First Presidency) prophets, seers, and revelators for?

True

bump.

 

[dianaiad]

What does Jesus say in John 8?

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

I see.

So in your viewpoint, anybody who does not agree with your interpretation of Jesus’ words is Satanic?

 

[dianaiad]

Why Diane dear - There was a method to my madness… I was a mormon for 22 years (not 22 years old as you put in a post) and I seriously didn’t know the answer to that question. As Rebecca pointed out, I never even thought about it until I became a Catholic… I know that for whatever reason, you LIVE on this site, and that you would be the FIRST PERSON to attempt to answer the question. Gee!!! I was correct in assuming that!!! As I said before, you have WAY too much time on your hands…

No you didn’t, Viki. Not even close…or you would have addressed your question to me. You addressed it to anybody who wanted to answer it.

As to whether I have too much time on my hands…perhaps I do. Perhaps the answer is simply that I think well and type fast. (shrug) Or not. Whatever, it is my time, and my hands, Viki.

 

[dianaiad]

Because I know that Diane is a mormon, and she is ALWAYS on here, and that she would answer it. And Gee, I was correct in assuming this!!! She was the 1st person to jump on this…

Wonderful backpedaling, m’dear…and I might even accept it if you had worded your question differently. Like, oh…“Diana, I never knew this, but…why do Mormons fold their arms when they pray?”

But that’s not what you wrote.

Do you have a problem with my answer, by the way? Is there something about it that offended you?

 

[dianaiad]

lol… no I meant, maybe it is a good idea that we take the mission work to them and not expect the mission work to come to us.

I just hope she uses the same name!

I do, actually.

when I post there, that is.

Which isn’t often.

 

[Answersplease]

I found most of the Mormons to be relatively informed about their religion. They don’t seem to contradict each other (publically) about established church theology. I’ve been on the board for 2 months, and the problem I have found is if you find a flaw in their reasoning they just shut down and move on to the next thread. I’d rather not chase them around the forum to get them to answer my questions athough they are all still out there. So now, on these threads, It is check reading what they are saying.

Maybe I need to start a thread of all of my unanswered questions (from the forum), so they can address them again, if they want.

Starting a thread with all your unanswered questions from the forum, would be interesting to see.

It would be more interesting if the Mormons responded to it.

Maybe you should start the thread anyway just so everyone else can see the questions you asked that they don’t want to answer?

 

[dianaiad]

Starting a thread with all your unanswered questions from the forum, would be interesting to see.

It would be more interesting if the Mormons responded to it.

Maybe you should start the thread anyway just so everyone else can see the questions you asked that they don’t want to answer?

I think it might be very interesting.

Of course, it will mean a lot of work for me, and I’m not too sure I have the time–tracking down where all those questions actually did get answered, that is, and providing the message numbers and threads that went with those answers.

 

[SteveVH]

Does anyone remember the subject matter of this thread? I thought it had something to do with Apostasy and Restoration. Maybe we’ve beat this to death but it sure seems like we’ve strayed way off course.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Agreed. That is one reason why I have given up on debating with them. It is useless to argue with them on matters of faith that cannot be proved or disproved objectively. Unfortunately, they think that they still have the right to engage us in argument over such matters.

The hard-core LDS who enter this forum only want to engage in hostility, even if it is useless. All it does is help their self-definition as “suffering saints”

Actually there really is very conclusive proof that JS was a fraud. His “translation” of the Book of Breathings into the book of Abraham has been proven bogus. that darn Rosetta stone he didnt see that coming. he should have stuck to the magical disappearing plates rather than something that could later be truly translated.

 

[youngsaint]

The claim of restoration is that the church (and the priesthood authority) was restored to the organization and beliefs of the very early times…somewhat before Ignatius, Iranaeus and Polycarp. Go further back to Mark. Luke, Peter and Paul. Those early church leaders.

Ignatius of Antioch (?-107 A.D.) was a disciple of Saint John the Evangelist, who was the youngest apostle of Jesus, which I am sure you know. Most historians, even non-denominational historians, the gospels were written at the earliest 70 A.D. Ignatius wrote articles about the eucharist, trinity, and incarnation.

Polycarp (69- 159 A.D.) was a disciple of Saint John the Evangelist and a bishop just like Ignatius of Antioch. He refused to sacrifice to the pagan gods was was to be burned. When he miraculously not die he was speared on February 23. He is remembered for being the greatest link from the apostles during the second century.

Irenaeus (125-203 A.D.) was a pupil of Polycarp who as we mentioned before was a pupil of Saint John. He is known as the first Catholic Theologian who was a great apologetic against Gnostics. He also taught Papal Supremacy.

So what you are saying is that these three men taught different doctrines then the gospel even though two of them were taught by Saint John himself and the third by one of Saint John’s pupils? Even though one of them actually died after Saint John? (Saint John died in 104 A.D.)

P.S. You did not specifically say Saint John but I’m assuming he counts since he was one of the early Church leaders.

 

[SteveVH]

Ignatius of Antioch (?-107 A.D.) was a disciple of Saint John the Evangelist, who was the youngest apostle of Jesus, which I am sure you know. Most historians, even non-denominational historians, the gospels were written at the earliest 70 A.D. Ignatius wrote articles about the eucharist, trinity, and incarnation.

Polycarp (69- 159 A.D.) was a disciple of Saint John the Evangelist and a bishop just like Ignatius of Antioch. He refused to sacrifice to the pagan gods was was to be burned. When he miraculously not die he was speared on February 23. He is remembered for being the greatest link from the apostles during the second century.

Irenaeus (125-203 A.D.) was a pupil of Polycarp who as we mentioned before was a pupil of Saint John. He is known as the first Catholic Theologian who was a great apologetic against Gnostics. He also taught Papal Supremacy.

So what you are saying is that these three men taught different doctrines then the gospel even though two of them were taught by Saint John himself and the third by one of Saint John’s pupils? Even though one of them actually died after Saint John? (Saint John died in 104 A.D.)

P.S. You did not specifically say Saint John but I’m assuming he counts since he was one of the early Church leaders.

Great post. I tried to make this same point early on in this thread. Hope you have better luck getting an answer than I did.