Mormon Apostle states arguments against the Book of Mormon are "pathetic"

[ParkerD]

But still and all we would not be literal sons and daughters of our heavenly parents. I can call my dogs my children all I want it doesn’t mean they are literally my children anymore than it means we are heavenly father and mothers children if they didn’t create us from themselves. As I see it spirit bodies are just a finer form of matter (the LDS explanation) and as such are subject to the same rules. In your scenario we are not offspring we are creations, there is a big difference. You are wandering into standard Christian belief here where we are adopted sons and daughters and can in no way be made of the same stuff.

Zaffiroborant,
Only Christ was “made of the same stuff” as God the Father in a completely literal sense. That of course is what made Him able to do what He did and is why He is called the Son of God. The promise that He is able to bring us into a likeness with Him does not mean we have to have started out as having a complete likeness with Him.

 

[Jerusha]

Off topic diversion.

I was thinking more along the lines of Stargate or Hugo, which leads back to my other question what is the sci-fi series based on the BOM by Card?

I think all of Card’s books have themes and subplots which come from BOM. Some are quite irreverent, and a good read.

DavidMark, which ones were you referring to?

 

[PaulDupre]

Zaffiroborant,
Only Christ was “made of the same stuff” as God the Father in a completely literal sense. That of course is what made Him able to do what He did and is why He is called the Son of God. The promise that He is able to bring us into a likeness with Him does not mean we have to have started out as having a complete likeness with Him.

So heavenly father and mrs. heavenly father had sex just one time?

What you are saying here is that not only are we not literal offspring of heavenly parents, but Jesus is not really our elder brother, either.

 

[ParkerD]

So heavenly father and mrs. heavenly father had sex just one time?

What you are saying here is that not only are we not literal offspring of heavenly parents, but Jesus is not really our elder brother, either.

Paul,
Remember that we were talking about “spirit children”. The physiology of the development of a mortal baby in the womb requires a sperm and an egg which form an embryo that begins to divide and has a stem cell and the DNA that directs the cell division to form a baby who will grow up to be an adult person. We don’t know the physiology of spirit development from an intelligence, but it doesn’t have to “match” the development of a body in the womb.

But if you think that Jehovah was the FirstBorn in the spirit and was God the Son because He was formed through that kind of union, then I guess I’m OK with that if that’s how you choose to grapple with the idea in your mind. Jehovah certainly had the immediate capacity to be perfect and to be the God who created this earth and other earths, so He was not “like us” in the pre-mortal world.

Here is a quote from Joseph Smith in the King Follet Sermon that explains an important concept:

“God himself could not create himself. Intelligence exists upon a self-existent principle; it is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it. Moreover, all the spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible to enlargement.”

“The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God found himself in the midst of spirits and glory, and because he was greater, he saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have the privilege of advancing like himself–that they might have one glory upon another and all the knowledge, power, and glory necessary to save the world of spirits.”

God the Father had the knowledge and power necessary to bring us into a more advanced state of being a spirit “susceptible to enlargement”, and tells us we are His children, but doesn’t tell us how we were formed into spirits. A spirit is not a physical body. Some day we’ll know more than we now know about the development of spirits. For the time being, go ahead and conjecture in whatever way suits your fancy, but no need to think it is like the mortal body development you had in your mom’s womb.

 

[PaulDupre]

But if you think that Jehovah was the FirstBorn in the spirit and was God the Son because He was formed through that kind of union, then I guess I’m OK with that if that’s how you choose to grapple with the idea in your mind.

Cute Parker, but you know I don’t believe any such thing. But your church leaders have always taught it, whether you are able to accept that or not.

 

[Arandur]

Off topic diversion.

I think all of Card’s books have themes and subplots which come from BOM. Some are quite irreverent, and a good read.

DavidMark, which ones were you referring to?

I think the most interesting explanation of the “pre-mortal existence” that Mormons refer to is given by Card late in his Speaker for the Dead series, when he describes his concept of the aiua. He really put some thought into it. And he does seem to try to represent Catholicism fairly in those books.

Card’s aiuas amount to a form of animism, which I think he recognizes as the logical extension of the Mormon concept of pre-mortal spirits and the spirit world as a sort of higher form of matter. It doesn’t quite capture the idea that the spirit world supposedly IS essentially matter, a grander reflection of the material world because the material world just isn’t good enough in the gnostic/Mormon perception.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Off topic diversion.

I think all of Card’s books have themes and subplots which come from BOM. Some are quite irreverent, and a good read.

DavidMark, which ones were you referring to?

I should think his books would have LDS themes but I thought DavidMark was referring to a series based on the BOM like his books on women in the OT. I haven’t read them but writing about Sarah and such it looks like it’s “based on the Bible” to me so I thought that’s what he meant.

I read the Ender series, I loved the first book, the second and third held my interest in spite of my being peeved with certain portrayals in those books. The last one though, I only finished it because I’d read the others and was looking for conclusions, I hoped it would get better, it didn’t and so I haven’t read anything else by Card even though I was given 2 of his other books. I was really disappointed by the end of Ender and there is so much to read so I doubt I’ll take him up again.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Paul,
Remember that we were talking about “spirit children”. **The physiology of the development of a mortal baby in the womb requires a sperm and an egg which form an embryo that begins to divide and has a stem cell and the DNA that directs the cell division to form a baby who will grow up to be an adult person. **We don’t know the physiology of spirit development from an intelligence, but it doesn’t have to “match” the development of a body in the womb.

That’s what makes them “literal offspring”. To be “literal offspring” of heavenly father and heavenly mother some thing has to come from each of them and to be “literal offspring” is has to be the same stuff that they are made of other wise you are talking about a joint creation. Big difference.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I think the most interesting explanation of the “pre-mortal existence” that Mormons refer to is given by Card late in his Speaker for the Dead series, when he describes his concept of the aiua. He really put some thought into it. And he does seem to try to represent Catholicism fairly in those books.

Card’s aiuas amount to a form of animism, which I think he recognizes as the logical extension of the Mormon concept of pre-mortal spirits and the spirit world as a sort of higher form of matter. It doesn’t quite capture the idea that the spirit world supposedly IS essentially matter, a grander reflection of the material world because the material world just isn’t good enough in the gnostic/Mormon perception.

Perhaps he tried but I don’t think he even came close and I think if any Catholic writer portrayed LDS the way Card did Catholics he would pitch a fit. When I read the books a lot of the people I hung around with were into sci-fi and one commented that Card “really doesn’t like the Catholics”.

 

[sweetnay]

Paul,
After reading this comment, I asked my wife about what she has thought about whether she expects to be “eternally pregnant”, and she said she has never even thought about it but agreed that a spirit brought forth from an intelligence would a different (unknown) process than what women go through in a mortal pregnancy, nor would the womb need to be involved at all. She has never heard it discussed among family, friends, or associates, and has been an active LDS all her life. Nor has my daughter (age 21 visiting from college) who heard our conversation, but she did say she has heard that accusation from those outside of our church.

I thought about making a phone call or two since our neighborhood has many brilliant women who absolutely speak their mind without hesitation and are assertive in every way. But I think it would be an affront to their intellect to be asked the question, because the answer is so obvious when one really thinks about a physical body as compared with a spirit and an intelligence and the development in the womb of a physical body through cell division.

However, if any reader other than Paul would sincerely believe what Paul has accused the women of the LDS church of believing, then please let me know here and I will ask at least one neighbor woman or a sister-in-law who is as outspoken as they come, and will let the readers of this thread know her response.

As I have stated before on other threads, the other accusation about any sort of thinking as to having more than one wife in eternity, may have been in Paul’s brain when he was LDS, but has never been in my brain, period. It is a completely untrue accusation. It is a defensive mechanism and tactic that is often used to attempt to discredit the LDS church, but as far as I’m concerned is another example of “pathetic” reasoning or I could use other words to describe it.

The comment I underlined is deeply pathetic and offensive to women in general, not just LDS.

Parker pls clarify: are you stating that men cannot be sealed to more than one wife, or that men only have one wife in CK?
Thx

 

[Arandur]

Perhaps he tried but I don’t think he even came close and I think if any Catholic writer portrayed LDS the way Card did Catholics he would pitch a fit. When I read the books a lot of the people I hung around with were into sci-fi and one commented that Card “really doesn’t like the Catholics”.

Well, yeah, it was a mixed bag I suppose. Bishop Peregrino seemed a blend of a good bishop about a third of the time and nearly some non-Catholic concept of a medieval inquisitor another third. I forget the character’s name, but there was good Catholic martyr in the story–a martyr in the fullest sense, which Card seemed to understand, willingly taking the risk of his death and not fighting back, but proclaiming God’s truth to the very end, enduring to the end.

 

[Jerusha]

Perhaps he tried but I don’t think he even came close and I think if any Catholic writer portrayed LDS the way Card did Catholics he would pitch a fit. When I read the books a lot of the people I hung around with were into sci-fi and one commented that Card “really doesn’t like the Catholics”.

That is part and parcel of the Mormon cultural baggage that he carries. A snapshot into the mind of a liberal LDS.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker pls clarify: are you stating that men cannot be sealed to more than one wife, or that men only have one wife in CK?
Thx

Hi, Sweetnay,
I hope readers will be OK that this topic is personal and therefore I will answer your question with very personal information.

My mom died in 1997, and my dad remarried within a year at age 70 to a woman a few years younger than him. A few of my sisters were reluctant at first about his re-marriage, partly because mom’s death had been difficult for them due to the traumatic nature (pancreatic cancer) and that they were all very close to her and had a hard time understanding my dad’s need to remarry. How differently they feel now, as dad has had a wonderful companionship (as he had before with my mom) but even more importantly for us children, his wife has been untiring in caring for him as he now has Parkinson’s disease as well as early stage dementia. As we visit them often, one can imagine I suppose how grateful we are that he has her companionship and sweet, untiring support. It is amazing to me as I help in certain functions at their home, that she is so patient and supportive despite the physical strain from rallying to care for his needs during the prolonged nature of these illnesses.

For Paul to have used the word he used regarding the idea of whether a man can be “sealed” to more than one wife in the eternities based on circumstances in this life that led to the continued growth in compassion and understanding of both people through what a marriage really means and really does for people, is repugnant to me and an affront to women and to the institution of marriage. As far as I’m concerned, my mom has had the chance to “get over” any feelings of reluctance about my dad having remarried, and I think it is safe to assume she is very grateful that in his situation he has such companionship and support–as her children feel about it. I think they will be able to work out their eternal relationships with love and tenderness and mutual understanding.

As for me, I plan to live past age 100 and will do what the Holy Spirit inspires if it happens that I were to outlive my wife. (Fortunately we’re both blessed with good health and forgiving hearts which helps health a lot). But I have not the slightest hesitation in saying I do not plan on having more than one wife in eternity, nor have I ever thought that is something I would want or need or be “commanded” to do.

So my answer is that men can be sealed to a second wife when their first wife has died and if the second wife is not already sealed to a first husband who died, and in those cases as well as the validly performed sealings in the early LDS church, there will be potentially more than one wife for some men in the Celestial Kingdom, but only because of circumstances specific to individual cases and not as the general case.

 

[sweetnay]

Hi, Sweetnay,
I hope readers will be OK that this topic is personal and therefore I will answer your question with very personal information.

My mom died in 1997, and my dad remarried within a year at age 70 to a woman a few years younger than him. A few of my sisters were reluctant at first about his re-marriage, partly because mom’s death had been difficult for them due to the traumatic nature (pancreatic cancer) and that they were all very close to her and had a hard time understanding my dad’s need to remarry. How differently they feel now, as dad has had a wonderful companionship (as he had before with my mom) but even more importantly for us children, his wife has been untiring in caring for him as he now has Parkinson’s disease as well as early stage dementia. As we visit them often, one can imagine I suppose how grateful we are that he has her companionship and sweet, untiring support. It is amazing to me as I help in certain functions at their home, that she is so patient and supportive despite the physical strain from rallying to care for his needs during the prolonged nature of these illnesses.

For Paul to have used the word he used regarding the idea of whether a man can be “sealed” to more than one wife in the eternities based on circumstances in this life that led to the continued growth in compassion and understanding of both people through what a marriage really means and really does for people, is repugnant to me and an affront to women and to the institution of marriage. As far as I’m concerned, my mom has had the chance to “get over” any feelings of reluctance about my dad having remarried, and I think it is safe to assume she is very grateful that in his situation he has such companionship and support–as her children feel about it. I think they will be able to work out their eternal relationships with love and tenderness and mutual understanding.

As for me, I plan to live past age 100 and will do what the Holy Spirit inspires if it happens that I were to outlive my wife. (Fortunately we’re both blessed with good health and forgiving hearts which helps health a lot). But I have not the slightest hesitation in saying I do not plan on having more than one wife in eternity, nor have I ever thought that is something I would want or need or be “commanded” to do.

So my answer is that men can be sealed to a second wife when their first wife has died and if the second wife is not already sealed to a first husband who died, and in those cases as well as the validly performed sealings in the early LDS church, there will be potentially more than one wife for some men in the Celestial Kingdom, but only because of circumstances specific to individual cases and not as the general case.

Thanks Parker, so your dad will have two wives in the Celestial Kingdom?

 

[Annie_B]

Parker D -
thank you for sharing a very personal story. Your dad is very lucky to have found someone to share this season of his life with. Heavenly Father’s mercies abound and He provides more than we could even dream of.
Blessings to you and yours -
Annie

 

[amontoya]

So my answer is that men can be sealed to a second wife when their first wife has died and if the second wife is not already sealed to a first husband who died, and in those cases as well as the validly performed sealings in the early LDS church, there will be potentially more than one wife for some men in the Celestial Kingdom, but only because of circumstances specific to individual cases and not as the general case.

Why can a man be sealed to more than one wife, but a woman can only have one husband?

 

[ParkerD]

Why can a man be sealed to more than one wife, but a woman can only have one husband?

Amontoya,
I assume your question here means being sealed during mortal life and the impact on eternity. It’s a very deep question involving what a marriage is supposed to be, the proper roles of women and men in a marriage, and the fact that in eternity when people are resurrected, if they have received a marriage sealing with all of their heart and been faithful, then Christ bridges their imperfections into a condition of really being “perfect” including having perfect understanding and perfect love, without the kinds of mortal imperfections we deal with during the course of our lives.

Men are to have a leadership role but as the presiding leader in a joint leadership role with their wife. Their wife is an “helpmeet” who is equal and a blessing in every way, and has the specific responsibility and inclination to be a nurturer in the family. These roles can work out and be successful in eternity with that kind of perspective toward marriage, but it would not work out to have two who would be considered the “presiding” leader within a marriage relationship. I also don’t think a woman’s inclination as a perfect person within marriage would be toward having two husbands to preside within such a marriage in eternity.

Good question–thanks for asking for the clarification. You really think things through deeply. God bless you. I’m glad to know how you’re doing, from the other recent post. Thanks!

 

[amontoya]

Amontoya,
I assume your question here means being sealed during mortal life and the impact on eternity. It’s a very deep question involving what a marriage is supposed to be, the proper roles of women and men in a marriage, and the fact that in eternity when people are resurrected, if they have received a marriage sealing with all of their heart and been faithful, then Christ bridges their imperfections into a condition of really being “perfect” including having perfect understanding and perfect love, without the kinds of mortal imperfections we deal with during the course of our lives.

Men are to have a leadership role but as the presiding leader in a joint leadership role with their wife. Their wife is an “helpmeet” who is equal and a blessing in every way, and has the specific responsibility and inclination to be a nurturer in the family. These roles can work out and be successful in eternity with that kind of perspective toward marriage, but it would not work out to have two who would be considered the “presiding” leader within a marriage relationship. I also don’t think a woman’s inclination as a perfect person within marriage would be toward having two husbands to preside within such a marriage in eternity.

Good question–thanks for asking for the clarification. You really think things through deeply. God bless you. I’m glad to know how you’re doing, from the other recent post. Thanks!

ParkerD,
Thank you for your reply. In light of your other answer, don’t you think that a man who has passed away would be glad to know that the wife he left behind is being cared for, in the same manner that your father is being cared for? Are widows supposed to remain alone, while widowers may take another helpmate?

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD,
Thank you for your reply. In light of your other answer, don’t you think that a man who has passed away would be glad to know that the wife he left behind is being cared for, in the same manner that your father is being cared for? Are widows supposed to remain alone, while widowers may take another helpmate?

Amontoya,
Another very thoughtful question. Widows can remarry, but if they already have a “sealed” marriage, then their second marriage would be for “time only.” The men are not discouraged from entering into such a second marriage to a widow who had already been sealed, although some might personally feel a bit of reluctance as I remember one family friend I knew years ago talked about that. (He remarried to a woman who did not have a temple marriage.)

My father-in-law died at age 45, and my mother-in-law made the decision not to remarry. Her dad had remarried a widow after his wife had died, and that was “for time” only, and it proved to be a great blessing to him and to the entire family as she was greatly appreciated.

 

[Arandur]

The discussion about martyrdom was kinda buried a few pages ago on this thread, but I keep reading the “quotes” section in the top right corner of this site and it keeps reminding me how different concepts of martyrs are, between LDS and Catholics.

I recommend reading that quotes section; lots of good stuff, and lots of them from martyrs going freely and peacefully to their deaths, proclaiming God’s Truth and their faith in Him to the very end. Even receiving their martyrdom joyously as a partaking in Christ’s suffering–and in the imminent expectation of meeting Him.