Mormon Apostle states arguments against the Book of Mormon are "pathetic"

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Prince_Hal

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This weekend was the semi annual conference of the LDS (Mormon church). Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland (a member of the Quorum of Twelve) defended the Book of Mormon. The transcripts will not be out for a couple of days yet.

However, he stated that the arguments against the divinity of the Book of Mormon were “pathetic”.

Generally a very fine speaker Brother Holland today seemed very angry and blew off the arguments against the Book with frustration and anger. Normally the Mormon hierarchy today do all their best to court good relations with other religions. Perhaps it was directed against apostates within.

Did anyone hear the talk and would like to comment ?

As usual a false argument was set up to play to the faithful LDS members. Apparently Hyrum Smith (Joseph Smith’s brother) quoted comforting words from the Book of Ether (one of the books in the Book of Mormon) as they went to their deaths (I agree this was murder).

He then asked the congregation whether they thought that he would quote from a false book that claimed to be divine on his way to meet his Maker. Therefore it must be a true book - scripture, divinely sent.

It will have pleased the people and these words will be quoted for months and years hence.

I will post the link when the transcript arrives, unless someone does it before hand.

There’s a lesson to be learned here I think. You cannot defeat spin. The battle to bring truth to our Mormon brothers and sisters must come through the spirit and prayer. Perhaps sometimes we seek to guide God’s ship too eagerly.

So my plea is to remember the 14 million LDS members in the world in our prayer for their ability to shake off the shackles of error.

God bless you,

Hal.
 
Prince_Hal said:
This weekend was the semi annual conference of the LDS (Mormon church). Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland (a member of the Quorum of Twelve) defended the Book of Mormon. The transcripts will not be out for a couple of days yet.

However, he stated that the arguments against the divinity of the Book of Mormon were “pathetic”.

Generally a very fine speaker Brother Holland today seemed very angry and blew off the arguments against the Book with frustration and anger. Normally the Mormon hierarchy today do all their best to court good relations with other religions. Perhaps it was directed against apostates within.

Did anyone hear the talk and would like to comment ?

As usual a false argument was set up to play to the faithful LDS members. Apparently Hyrum Smith (Joseph Smith’s brother) quoted comforting words from the Book of Ether (one of the books in the Book of Mormon) as they went to their deaths (I agree this was murder).

He then asked the congregation whether they thought that he would quote from a false book that claimed to be divine on his way to meet his Maker. Therefore it must be a true book - scripture, divinely sent.

It will have pleased the people and these words will be quoted for months and years hence.

I will post the link when the transcript arrives, unless someone does it before hand.

There’s a lesson to be learned here I think. You cannot defeat spin. The battle to bring truth to our Mormon brothers and sisters must come through the spirit and prayer. Perhaps sometimes we seek to guide God’s ship too eagerly.

So my plea is to remember the 14 million LDS members in the world in our prayer for their ability to shake off the shackles of error.

God bless you,

Hal.
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Is it possible some of this stems from their apologists backing away from the Book of Abraham?

ldschurchnews.com/articles/57738/The-Book-of-Abraham-The-larger-issue.html
 
The article referred to above is by Brother Gee. In it he says that “…The Church does not stand or fall on the Book of Abraham.”

BUT it does by the Book of Mormon. Probably this is the reason for his strong “testimony”. But he was certainly angry and frustrated. “Pathetic” is not normally a word you hear at General Conference.

Of course the arguments are not. Just read the Book of Mormon and know when compared against the Bible, it is just a Mills and Boon against Tolkien.

God bless,

Hal.
 
twopekinguys said:
Is it possible some of this stems from their apologists backing away from the Book of Abraham?

ldschurchnews.com/articles/57738/The-Book-of-Abraham-The-larger-issue.html
Click to expand...
Within a few years they will begin to back away from the Book of Mormon, too, as the RLDS (Community of Christ) has done. In fact, they have already started. The LDS must abandon the Book of Mormon as a historical document if they are to survive as a church. Their members are quickly starting to see that the Book of Mormon has no basis in fact and never will. If the church leadership keeps insisting on belief in the historicity of the Book of Mormon as a requirement for membership, they will lose the majority of their members over the next generation.

Thanks be to God for the internet!
 
PaulDupre said:
Within a few years they will begin to back away from the Book of Mormon, too, as the RLDS (Community of Christ) has done. In fact, they have already started. The LDS must abandon the Book of Mormon as a historical document if they are to survive as a church. Their members are quickly starting to see that the Book of Mormon has no basis in fact and never will. If the church leadership keeps insisting on belief in the historicity of the Book of Mormon as a requirement for membership, they will lose the majority of their members over the next generation.

Thanks be to God for the internet!
Click to expand...
Brother Holland appears not to be quite ready to abandon it yet. But let’s wait until the transcript arrives. There were some real illogical arguments.

Hal
 
Prince_Hal said:
Brother Holland appears not to be quite ready to abandon it yet. But let’s wait until the transcript arrives. There were some real illogical arguments.

Hal
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Yes, I’m afraid the old men in SLC will hang on to the BoM until the bitter end. But they will be the heads of a church with no members.
 
Prince_Hal said:
The article referred to above is by Brother Gee. In it he says that “…The Church does not stand or fall on the Book of Abraham.”

BUT it does by the Book of Mormon. Probably this is the reason for his strong “testimony”. But he was certainly angry and frustrated. “Pathetic” is not normally a word you hear at General Conference.

Of course the arguments are not. Just read the Book of Mormon and know when compared against the Bible, it is just a Mills and Boon against Tolkien.

God bless,

Hal.
Click to expand...
Hal,
My children thought it was a wonderful talk, and so did I. He was forceful and direct, so if in your mind being forceful and direct is being angry, then does one have to be mealymouthed and indirect in order for you to not think they are being angry?

I think “pathetic” is exactly the correct word. I have never read any scholarly approach that really tackled all of the issues about the existence of the Book of Mormon including its authenticity and literary intricacy. They skirt around them and bring up “pathetically weak” and “pathetically unstudied” rationale that does not stand up to thorough research. Most are unwilling to do thorough research. That unwillingness yet their continued one-horse assertions are “pathetic,” in my view.

Hurray for forthrightness in such a talk!👍
 
Prince_Hal said:
Brother Holland appears not to be quite ready to abandon it yet. But let’s wait until the transcript arrives. There were some real illogical arguments.

Hal
Click to expand...
Hmmmm! Mormons, The Book of Mormon, & Illogical Arguments.
situation normal…

Can one expect anything less… Having lived never Palmyra all my life I am quire aware of Mormon “teachings” & the pathetic approach they take trying to defend the indefensible aspects of their doctrine & the many, many changes to it since the very beginning.

The Lack of Historical evidence for much of the “Book of Mormon” is ignored. Blind Faith without reason, without logic is required to be a Mormon.

I agree, we need to pray for all souls to reconcil themselves to God through Christ Jesus & His one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. 🙂
 
MormonAddict said:
Here is the video - there are two parts…

youtube.com/user/jeraboo29#play/uploads/10/ld0_7fKGdRM
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It was a powerful talk filled with passion and love for the people who left the lds church and for those who are contemplating leaving due to the book of mormon theories put out by the critics. He made sense. The people involved in the book of mormon coming to light in the modern days are its strength.

It flies against human nature that the book can be a fraud. Too many people involved in the process. And not one ever claimed it was a fraud. For JS, the fail/gain relationship of a fraud, would signal that the fraud failed and if it were a fraud, he would have given it up and hightailed it out of town with his wife.
 
ParkerD said:
Hal,
My children thought it was a wonderful talk, and so did I. He was forceful and direct, so if in your mind being forceful and direct is being angry, then does one have to be mealymouthed and indirect in order for you to not think they are being angry?

I think “pathetic” is exactly the correct word. I have never read any scholarly approach that really tackled all of the issues about the existence of the Book of Mormon including its authenticity and literary intricacy. They skirt around them and bring up “pathetically weak” and “pathetically unstudied” rationale that does not stand up to thorough research. Most are unwilling to do thorough research. That unwillingness yet their continued one-horse assertions are “pathetic,” in my view.

Hurray for forthrightness in such a talk!👍
Click to expand...
Don’t get me wrong. Brother Holland is a fine speaker. Some of his talks are excellent - well, if you cut out a few paragraphs here and there.

He was direct and forthright. This isn’t a concern. However, his “pathetic” statement had a sense of petulance about it. Take the transcript and see if you really think his arguments were logical. So, Hyrum read to Joseph from Ether before they died. He made this out to be proof that the Book of Mormon was true. Well how about:

They believed it was true, but it wasn’t.
They didn’t believe they were going to die.

Both would be valid alternative. But, Holland only gave the one reason.

Anyway, passionate speaking doesn’t always mean the truth. Listen to Father Corapi for example. No, I happen to believe what he says is true. He is full of fire, but I am sure LDS would not agree with everything he says.

It appears that Holland succeeded with you and your family. Wow. Excellent talk. Full of passion. Must be true. … But look at the content and his arguments and the house of cards crumble.

And “pathetic”. No, not really. I think the book was called the “golden Bible” by a non-Catholic minister called Lamb back in the 19th Century. It looks at the internals of the BofM, and shows its colors as a fake when you compare it against real scripture.

But, for LDS emotion often wins the days. It was a great rallying cry to the faithful who will go no further to research what apparently is “pathetic”.

Lamb’s book. My recommendation.

Hal.
 
Prince_Hal said:
Don’t get me wrong. Brother Holland is a fine speaker. Some of his talks are excellent - well, if you cut out a few paragraphs here and there.

He was direct and forthright. This isn’t a concern. However, his “pathetic” statement had a sense of petulance about it. Take the transcript and see if you really think his arguments were logical. So, Hyrum read to Joseph from Ether before they died. He made this out to be proof that the Book of Mormon was true. Well how about:

They believed it was true, but it wasn’t.
They didn’t believe they were going to die.

Both would be valid alternative. But, Holland only gave the one reason.

Hal.
Click to expand...
Not quite. Joseph Smith knew that he would die:

On June 25, 1844, Governor Thomas Ford of Illinois told the state militia that Joseph and his brother Hyrum were “dangerous men” (History of the Church, 5:563) and guilty of treason. The two brothers went to Carthage, Illinois, to deliver themselves up to the “pretended requirements of the law” (Doctrine and Covenants 135:1), according to the demands of the governor. Joseph Smith said of the event, “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I shall die innocent, and it shall be said of me—He was murdered in cold blood” (Doctrine and Covenants 135:4).

josephsmith.com/

It seems pretty clear to me.
 
Prince_Hal said:
Don’t get me wrong. Brother Holland is a fine speaker. Some of his talks are excellent - well, if you cut out a few paragraphs here and there.

He was direct and forthright. This isn’t a concern. However, his “pathetic” statement had a sense of petulance about it. Take the transcript and see if you really think his arguments were logical. So, Hyrum read to Joseph from Ether before they died. He made this out to be proof that the Book of Mormon was true. Well how about:

They believed it was true, but it wasn’t.
They didn’t believe they were going to die.

Both would be valid alternative. But, Holland only gave the one reason.

Anyway, passionate speaking doesn’t always mean the truth. Listen to Father Corapi for example. No, I happen to believe what he says is true. He is full of fire, but I am sure LDS would not agree with everything he says.

It appears that Holland succeeded with you and your family. Wow. Excellent talk. Full of passion. Must be true. … But look at the content and his arguments and the house of cards crumble.

And “pathetic”. No, not really. I think the book was called the “golden Bible” by a non-Catholic minister called Lamb back in the 19th Century. It looks at the internals of the BofM, and shows its colors as a fake when you compare it against real scripture.

But, for LDS emotion often wins the days. It was a great rallying cry to the faithful who will go no further to research what apparently is “pathetic”.

Lamb’s book. My recommendation.

Hal.
Click to expand...
Hal,
I have spent a few minutes speed reading Mr. Lamb’s lecture (a Baptist scholar). It was given in Utah many years ago, but I found it online. Unimpressive, other than reading a person’s presentation who coveys mostly that he is full of himself. It was amusing to me that he quoted from the book of Daniel yet is unaware that Daniel prophesied in plain language of the very loss of authority and temporary but complete extent of loss of knowledge of the gospel on the earth that is again prophesied by the apostle John in the book of Revelation.

What Mr. Lamb’s lecture reiterated to me is that the Book of Mormon does best the sifting of hearts to know who has humility and sincerity and is looking to follow the voice of the Good Shepherd, versus who wants to assert their own self-importance and braggadacio.

What I also learn from your post about Elder Holland’s talk is that some dads evidently don’t have the kind of love of family that is probably assumed to be common to all normal family-centered fathers by someone such as Elder Holland–that the love of their wife and children is so important as to be worth life itself, and the love of truth is only the greater love. Thus you could make insignificant the fact that Joseph Smith and his brother, Hyrum, were willing to die for the truth even though knowing they would leave their beloved families fatherless.

The word “pathetic” and the pathos of the loss of what could be gained through the voice of the Good Shepherd, again come to mind as the “right words”.
 
Prince_Hal said:
This weekend was the semi annual conference of the LDS (Mormon church). Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland (a member of the Quorum of Twelve) defended the Book of Mormon. The transcripts will not be out for a couple of days yet.

However, he stated that the arguments against the divinity of the Book of Mormon were “pathetic”.

Generally a very fine speaker Brother Holland today seemed very angry and blew off the arguments against the Book with frustration and anger. Normally the Mormon hierarchy today do all their best to court good relations with other religions. Perhaps it was directed against apostates within.

Did anyone hear the talk and would like to comment ?

As usual a false argument was set up to play to the faithful LDS members. Apparently Hyrum Smith (Joseph Smith’s brother) quoted comforting words from the Book of Ether (one of the books in the Book of Mormon) as they went to their deaths (I agree this was murder).

He then asked the congregation whether they thought that he would quote from a false book that claimed to be divine on his way to meet his Maker. Therefore it must be a true book - scripture, divinely sent.

It will have pleased the people and these words will be quoted for months and years hence.

I will post the link when the transcript arrives, unless someone does it before hand.

There’s a lesson to be learned here I think. You cannot defeat spin. The battle to bring truth to our Mormon brothers and sisters must come through the spirit and prayer. Perhaps sometimes we seek to guide God’s ship too eagerly.

So my plea is to remember the 14 million LDS members in the world in our prayer for their ability to shake off the shackles of error.

God bless you,

Hal.
Click to expand...
So…whatever your opinion of the tone of the speech (and yes, I heard it…) I also heard the passion in it. I share it, and the frustration he felt. I’m VERY tired of the…@#$% I hear from opponents of the Book of Mormon, as they simply slip from one stupid objection to another…as soon as one is proven invalid, they simply drop it and go to the next one as if nothing had been said.

Be that as it may, the question he asked is a valid one. If, as has been claimed, Joseph and his brother were charlatans and fakes who deliberately began a religion for the purpose of defrauding people, then why would they, in the privacy of a cell and in their last hours (and yes, they all knew that those were probably their last hours) turn to a book they invented for comfort?

Doing so may not prove that the book is true, but it does prove one very important thing; THEY believed it was true. …and that sets up a very different scenario, indeed.
 
Prince_Hal said:
Don’t get me wrong. Brother Holland is a fine speaker. Some of his talks are excellent - well, if you cut out a few paragraphs here and there.

He was direct and forthright. This isn’t a concern. However, his “pathetic” statement had a sense of petulance about it. Take the transcript and see if you really think his arguments were logical. So, Hyrum read to Joseph from Ether before they died. He made this out to be proof that the Book of Mormon was true. Well how about:

They believed it was true, but it wasn’t.
They didn’t believe they were going to die.
Click to expand...
The first item on your list is one that I brought up.
the second item is invalid. Joseph knew very well that this was his last trip, and that he wasn’t going to survive it. The evidence for that is overwhelming. He wasn’t going to ‘go down’ without resistance, but he knew he wasn’t going to win.

Or survive.
Prince_Hal said:
Both would be valid alternative.
Click to expand...
They would have…except that the first doesn’t help the anti’s much; after all, if Joseph and Hyrum actually believed it was true…THINK about that one for a moment or two, eh?.., and the second really isn’t valid.

As well, even if Joseph and Hyrum were not aware that they were probably not going to survive, this was in private. They had no problem drinking wine with the jailer and his family; they had no problem with having a pistol brought to them. Why on earth would they have quoted from the Book of Mormon to comfort themselves for any reason, if they honestly believed it to be false?

How much sense does that make?

“Spin” is fine…but ‘spin’ is for public consumption. It is what a man does in private that proves his beliefs, and it seems that, in private, Joseph actually believed.

How about that.
 
dianaiad said:
So…whatever your opinion of the tone of the speech (and yes, I heard it…) I also heard the passion in it. I share it, and the frustration he felt. I’m VERY tired of the…@#$% I hear from opponents of the Book of Mormon, as they simply slip from one stupid objection to another…as soon as one is proven invalid, they simply drop it and go to the next one as if nothing had been said.

Be that as it may, the question he asked is a valid one. If, as has been claimed, Joseph and his brother were charlatans and fakes who deliberately began a religion for the purpose of defrauding people, then why would they, in the privacy of a cell and in their last hours (and yes, they all knew that those were probably their last hours) turn to a book they invented for comfort?

Doing so may not prove that the book is true, but it does prove one very important thing; THEY believed it was true. …and that sets up a very different scenario, indeed.
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Morning Diania,

Haven’t seen you for a while. Hope all is well.

When you talk about one claim after another being disproved, and moving on. We have to take into consideration that it is from the LDS view that the argument was disproved. That doesn’t necessarily mean that it was.

Disagreements on something can be a funny thing. People can argue about something until they are blue in the face, and both walk away thinking they have won the argument.

Now, as far as them looking to the BoM for comfort in their last hours, it has been said that when JS was in the window, he raised his arm in the form of a Mason distress signal. So one might think, they kept up the pretense, in hopes of being saved by sympathetic Masons. Not to mention there are glaring similarities between the BoM, and the Bible in many cases. (Some say he plagurized it)

Just my 2 cents.

BTW, you’ve been a busy typer this morning…lol
 
dianaiad said:
Be that as it may, the question he asked is a valid one. If, as has been claimed, Joseph and his brother were charlatans and fakes who deliberately began a religion for the purpose of defrauding people, then why would they, in the privacy of a cell and in their last hours (and yes, they all knew that those were probably their last hours) turn to a book they invented for comfort?
Click to expand...
—Tsk, tsk. Joe shoulda never ordered the destruction of the Navoo Newspaper. Heck, all they were going to do was publish a load of truth on Joe’s sexual antics (with other men’s wives) and the many young girls he was “married to”. My take is, being the punk that Joe was, he tried a last minute dupe on any and all the gullible who might see him at trial, or might be on his Jury. Joe never did have the fortitude for truth. He thought that one big 'ol scam - the book of mormon - would get him off the hook. Wrong. And he didn’t know those were his last hours. He figured his religious scam would bring on a lot of supporters and he’d be freed. Wrong again.

The book of mormon is fine and dandy for a cult, but should be nowhere in a true “Christian” environment of teaching and praise. It shouldn’t even be in any home unless utilized as a doorstop.
 
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