Mormon Apostle states arguments against the Book of Mormon are "pathetic"

[Stephen168]

Take the transcript and see if you really think his arguments were logical. So, Hyrum read to Joseph from Ether before they died. He made this out to be proof that the Book of Mormon was true. Well how about:

They believed it was true, but it wasn’t.
They didn’t believe they were going to die.

OR:

They were words of comfort from another source he put into the Book of Mormon; therefore in his own mind was not quoting from the Book of Mormon but the original source of the words.

 

[dianaiad]

Morning Diania,

Haven’t seen you for a while. Hope all is well.

When you talk about one claim after another being disproved, and moving on. We have to take into consideration that it is from the LDS view that the argument was disproved. That doesn’t necessarily mean that it was.

(grin) thank you for proving my point.

Ever heard the one about the cement cities? That is a prime example of what I’m talking about. Among all the criticisms of the Book of Mormon there was this: that the ancient Americans didn’t know about cement, didn’t work in cement, and thus when the Book of Mormon mentioned cities of cement, this proved that it was false.

then, waddayaknow, they discovered cities of cement. Did anybody admit that they were wrong? Nope…‘cement’ was simply dropped from the arsenal.

The thing is, nobody is ever going to prove that the Book of Mormon is true, scientifically, any more than one can prove that the Bible is scientifically true. (especially since, well…it isn’t. Bats are NOT birds, and rabbits do NOT chew their cuds…) They aren’t ever going to prove that it is false, either, not scientifically. After all, the bible is true–and yet, bats are not birds, and rabbits do not chew their cuds.

Disagreements on something can be a funny thing. People can argue about something until they are blue in the face, and both walk away thinking they have won the argument.

Now, as far as them looking to the BoM for comfort in their last hours, it has been said that when JS was in the window, he raised his arm in the form of a Mason distress signal. So one might think, they kept up the pretense, in hopes of being saved by sympathetic Masons.

Just my 2 cents.

BTW, you’ve been a busy typer this morning…lol

It wasn’t pretense. I’m quite certain that Joseph (who, by the way, couldn’t have thought for a second that he would actually be rescued, given that his brother had just been shot dead…) tried everything he could try to save his own life. People do that, even when they know that nothing they can do will help. Everything that Joseph did, however, ended up simply heaping the guilt upon the heads of his murderers. They SHOULD have refrained from attacking the jail. His fellow masons SHOULD have rescued him. But they did not, and deliberately chose thier paths.

The one thing that Joseph could have done that really would have saved his life–he did not do. He didn’t have to go to Carthage. His choice was made then, because he knew–and he let quite a few people know that he knew–that he wouldn’t be returning from that trip alive.

 

[StLawrenceFan]

**Quoted from an eyewitness of Joe making-up the book of mormon: **

"Isaac Hale, the father of Emma Hale Smith, stated in an 1834 affidavit: “The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with a stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time hid in the woods.”

Quoted from here…

**Is this Joe laughing at the gullible - or…vomiting in his hat - overwhelmed by guilt and fraud? **

http://www.irr.org/mit/images/joseph-stone-sm-sh.gif

 

[dianaiad]

OR:

They were words of comfort from another source he put into the Book of Mormon; therefore in his own mind was not quoting from the Book of Mormon but the original source of the words.

Oh, now that’s circuitous reasoning at it’s most twisty.

 

[dianaiad]

OR:

They were words of comfort from another source he put into the Book of Mormon; therefore in his own mind was not quoting from the Book of Mormon but the original source of the words.

Oh, now that’s circuitous reasoning at its most twisty.

 

[StLawrenceFan]

The following text appeared in the Nauvoo Newspaper, written by former mormon folks who had awakened to the fact that Joe Smith was a major scam artist. The actual newspaper edition has been posted online here.

"We are earnestly seeking to explode the vicious principles of Joseph Smith, and those who practice the same abominations and whoredoms; which we verily know are not accordant and consonant with the principles of Jesus Christ and the Apostles; and for that purpose, and with that end in view, with an eye single to the glory of God, we have dared to gird on the armor, and with god at our head, we most solemnly and sincerely declare that the sword of truth shall not depart from the thigh, nor the buckler from the arm, until we can enjoy those glorious privileges which nature’s God and our country’s laws have guarantied to us–freedom of speech, the liberty of the press, and the right to worship God as seemeth us good…"

 

[twopekinguys]

(grin) thank you for proving my point.

Ever heard the one about the cement cities? That is a prime example of what I’m talking about. Among all the criticisms of the Book of Mormon there was this: that the ancient Americans didn’t know about cement, didn’t work in cement, and thus when the Book of Mormon mentioned cities of cement, this proved that it was false.

then, waddayaknow, they discovered cities of cement. Did anybody admit that they were wrong? Nope…‘cement’ was simply dropped from the arsenal.

The thing is, nobody is ever going to prove that the Book of Mormon is true, scientifically, any more than one can prove that the Bible is scientifically true. (especially since, well…it isn’t. Bats are NOT birds, and rabbits do NOT chew their cuds…) They aren’t ever going to prove that it is false, either, not scientifically. After all, the bible is true–and yet, bats are not birds, and rabbits do not chew their cuds.

It wasn’t pretense. I’m quite certain that Joseph (who, by the way, couldn’t have thought for a second that he would actually be rescued, given that his brother had just been shot dead…) tried everything he could try to save his own life. People do that, even when they know that nothing they can do will help. Everything that Joseph did, however, ended up simply heaping the guilt upon the heads of his murderers. They SHOULD have refrained from attacking the jail. His fellow masons SHOULD have rescued him. But they did not, and deliberately chose thier paths.

The one thing that Joseph could have done that really would have saved his life–he did not do. He didn’t have to go to Carthage. His choice was made then, because he knew–and he let quite a few people know that he knew–that he wouldn’t be returning from that trip alive.

I’m not familiar with the cement cities thing, so I really can’t address that. (one more thing I have to research).

But, going to JS in the jail. If you want to look at it like a lamb to the slaughter, and he went freely, knowing he wouldn’t return alive, we have to look at a couple of possibilities here.

1. Look at Jesus when he was turned over. He went willingly, and didn’t resist. In fact, when the Roman had his ear cut off by Peter, he rebuked Peter, and healed the Roman guard. No similarities between Jesus and JS. there.
2. JS did fire on, and ultimately killed one of the mob. Again, doesn’t sound like an innocent lamb to the slaughter. (Remember the shooting in the face discussion on another thread)
3. Let’s bring this into modern day, and assume he went to trial and was convicted. Chances are, a large number of his followers would have left him. Things would have died down, and then he would have started up again.(probably somewhere eles) Just like Jim Bakker from PT, where there are alot of similarities. (Sexual escapades, getting rich off of others, being arrested). Now Jim Bakker is at it again. He has a television ministry again, and is trying to raise money for another “faith community”, in Missouri this time. (alot of similarities here)
4. Even if he wasn’t convicted, personnally, I think enough information would have come out to cause him to lose his “church”, or at a bare minimum, would have cause many many factions to break off.

 

[StLawrenceFan]

The one thing that Joseph could have done that really would have saved his life–he did not do. He didn’t have to go to Carthage.

Actually, yes he did have to go to Carthage. He was under arrrest and charged with the destruction of the Nauvoo newspaper office. If he hadn’t gone to face justice, they would have come and retreived him.

Just like with O.J. Simpson or Bernie Madoff, karma got to Joe, too.

 

[Stephen168]

Oh, now that’s circuitous reasoning at its most twisty.

Hardly twisted at all. If one said the words contained in Isaiah Chapter two, would they be quoting from Isaiah or the Book of Mormon (2 Nephi 12)?
So Smith could have been quoting words of comfort from another source he put into the Book of Mormon; therefore in his own mind was not quoting from the Book of Mormon but the original source of the words.

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

…wow.

I’m disapointed in you, Thurifer.

Sorry dianaiad, from my perspective, there are a number of similarities between Scientology and the LDS Church, and I was not talking about doctrine.

 

[StLawrenceFan]

…from my perspective, there are a number of similarities between Scientology and the LDS Church, and I was not talking about doctrine.

Actually, a better comparison is between mormons and Jeehovah’s.
They both do not comply with, nor follow, basic Christian Doctrine.
They both rely on and respect documents/books outside of the Holy Bible that are written by false prophets, and have twisted or plagurized the word of God. Jeehovah’s have the “watchtower” and mormons have “bOm” and the “pearl of great price”. Both cult rags.

They both follow false prophets.
They are both non-Christian entities.
They are both religious cults.

Scientology is not religion claiming to be “Christian”.

 

[ParkerD]

Hardly twisted at all. If one said the words contained in Isaiah Chapter two, would they be quoting from Isaiah or the Book of Mormon (2 Nephi 12)?
So Smith could have been quoting words of comfort from another source he put into the Book of Mormon; therefore in his own mind was not quoting from the Book of Mormon but the original source of the words.

Stephen,
The verse Joseph Smith had read during that ominous day was Ether 12:36-38, which was the page that Elder Holland noted had the page corner turned in the original book he held up. John Taylor was a living witness of that day’s events. (D & C 135)

But indeed he was quoting someone: Moroni. And the subject was charity, which Moroni prayed that the Gentiles would receive through grace. Verse 37 reads thus:

37 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: If they have not charity it mattereth not unto thee, thou hast been faithful; wherefore, thy garments shall be made clean. And because thou hast seen thy weakness thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father.

 

[MadScot]

OR:

They were words of comfort from another source he put into the Book of Mormon; therefore in his own mind was not quoting from the Book of Mormon but the original source of the words.

Or:

The story is a complete fabrication by John Taylor to bolster Smith’s status as a martyr.

 

[Kdesiel]

Or:

The story is a complete fabrication by John Taylor to bolster Smith’s status as a martyr.

A point was made earlier regarding the actions of the Lord when the Roman Guard took him into custody. Peter had cut the ear off of a Roman Soldier, Jesus rebuked Peter then healed the guard.
J.Smith shot a member of the mob in the face killing him, then proceeded to the window with his hands in the air pronouncing “Oh Lord my God, is there no help for the widow’s son?” hoping the Masons in the crowd would then render him aide. One could speculate these are the actions of a desperate man, a desperate man not so willing to die for his cause as others had pointed out.
If he was the Martyr to his cause, why the urgent appeal to the Masons within the mob? Why the call for protection?
Why the brutal act of violence by shooting a man in the face and killing him? Of course this man was there to do harm and J.Smith and his friends were obligated to protect themselves, but don’t call a man a martyr when he doesn’t warrant the title.

 

[Jerusha]

Let’s not derail the topic.

No non-Mormon has ever taken the time to do an exhaustive study of the BOM, because of the mere fact that it is such an obvious fraud. And any of the “good stuff” in the BOM was either copied from the Bible, or was simple 19th century wisdom, and criticism of those times. Sigh. For those who truly believe, nothing can convince them otherwise. Sigh. We can only reach the doubters who don’t mind the possibility of loss of family, jobs, community, and reputation and we give THEM kudos for their courage.

 

[ParkerD]

Jerusha,
I’ll tell you what. You have said you are an expert on Tolkein, and that he was a far better writer than whoever you may think wrote the Book of Mormon or D & C 121 or the Book of Abraham. Find any sentence he wrote that contains a marvelous, somewhat unique but insightful truth. Post that sentence. (You go first.) I’ll check back occasionally here. (Fun stuff!)

 

[Jerusha]

Strawman. I never claimed to be a deep student of Tolkien, only a fan. A lot different. Tolkien was a much better writer than the authors of the BOM. The BOM contains more pithy truths than Tolkien, because Tolkien’s work was never intended as a parody of the Bible.

 

[ParkerD]

Strawman. I never claimed to be a deep student of Tolkien, only a fan. A lot different. Tolkien was a much better writer than the authors of the BOM. The BOM contains more pithy truths than Tolkien, because Tolkien’s work was never intended as a parody of the Bible.

Jerusha,
OK, broaden the scope of your assertion. Find any pithy truth you like, from any source non-Biblical, and post that and we can compare the relevance of the content and the pithiness of the writing style and the authenticity of the writing itself.

 

[thecourt]

I am familiar with his talk and he is totally correct.

The assault on the Book of Mormon is not new.

Folks here and the world in general need to realize that our efforts in sharing it will not stop and the effort to say all false things about the church serve no purpose.

 

[StLawrenceFan]

The assault on the Book of Mormon is not new.

…either is the assault on the trees to print that rubbish.

Very sad. Poor trees.

The truth on the bOm is out there, as is the truth on Joe Smith.
The truth on that fake prophet and all his bogus seer activities will never cease until some Edler at LDS with some backbone says, “you’re right; we are not Christian and Joe was a con man”.

I’m not holding my breath, but love the fact that so many ex-mormons have spoken so very honestly. The truth is so refreshing.

Yet another great site here to research…