Mormon Apostle states arguments against the Book of Mormon are "pathetic"

[DanielWoods]

Hal,

I read your post and was confused that you misunderstood Holland’s message and argument. His argument was that Joseph Smith and thousands of others suffered and died holding true to their testimony that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. His question is why would a deciever endure so much? This was his point.

Not that because Hyrum read from Ether to comfort Joseph it must be true.

The Book of Mormon stands as a witness that Jesus is the Christ. What thanks do “believers” and detractors of this book give to this fact! If I was a non Christian, I would have more confindence in the Gospel Message knowing that there are more accounts of the risen Lord than just the Bible. You know, the Buddists have their holy books. Hindus have theirs. The Christians - well they have the Bible. Why should I believe that Jesus really is the Savior, and not just some figure in a great story told in one religion’s holy book?

Back to the argument Hal…

Hollands talk was not about Hyrum reading part of the book of Ether so it must be true. that is ridiculous. We’re you not really paying attention till you heard him say that word (pathetic) which kind of woke me up a bit too?

This is what you said, “He then asked the congregation whether they thought that he would quote from a false book that claimed to be divine on his way to meet his Maker. Therefore it must be a true book - scripture, divinely sent.”

He went on and on about lots of trials and suffering Joseph Smith and others could have avoided if they let go of their claim that the Book of Mormon is as I have written above!

It wasn’t just about reading part of Ether.

 

[StLawrenceFan]

Hal,

…if I was a non Christian…

But are you an LDS? Then you are not “Christian”.
That makes you a non-Christian.

 

[Prince_Hal]

So…whatever your opinion of the tone of the speech (and yes, I heard it…) I also heard the passion in it. I share it, and the frustration he felt. I’m VERY tired of the…@#$% I hear from opponents of the Book of Mormon, as they simply slip from one stupid objection to another…as soon as one is proven invalid, they simply drop it and go to the next one as if nothing had been said.

Be that as it may, the question he asked is a valid one. If, as has been claimed, Joseph and his brother were charlatans and fakes who deliberately began a religion for the purpose of defrauding people, then why would they, in the privacy of a cell and in their last hours (and yes, they all knew that those were probably their last hours) turn to a book they invented for comfort?

Doing so may not prove that the book is true, but it does prove one very important thing; THEY believed it was true. …and that sets up a very different scenario, indeed.

I would agree that some arguments are possibly stupuid, whilst others most certainly are not. But we will now have many more LDS members blindly, out of ignorance, repeating the same words as Holland has. Even in this post you did the same with your symbol expletive. It empowers the Mormon congregations to simply quote and not to think. What arguments are pathetic, beyong the one or two word names. Go research them general populace of mormondom. Then thinkand pray and study. But that would be looked upon and described as a lack of faith and a slight against God. Aside from everything the contents of the book are nothing compared to the Bible.

One answer could be as you said that Joseph and Hyrum actually believed the book, being filled by the devil appearing as an angel of light. Was it Moroni that Joseph saw, or was it Nephi? He did not seem so sure himself until the PR machine got to work.

Hal

 

[Prince_Hal]

…They would have…except that the first doesn’t help the anti’s much; after all, if Joseph and Hyrum actually believed it was true…THINK about that one for a moment or two, eh?.., and the second really isn’t valid.

As well, even if Joseph and Hyrum were not aware that they were probably not going to survive, this was in private. They had no problem drinking wine with the jailer and his family; they had no problem with having a pistol brought to them. Why on earth would they have quoted from the Book of Mormon to comfort themselves for any reason, if they honestly believed it to be false?

How much sense does that make?

“Spin” is fine…but ‘spin’ is for public consumption. It is what a man does in private that proves his beliefs, and it seems that, in private, Joseph actually believed.

How about that.

or the whole martyrdom was glamorized to perpetuate the myth. Again too many time false arguments are set up and defended. Perhaps Hyrum was hoodwinked by Joseph ? Many men have gone to their deaths believing a lie. That doesn’t prove that what they believed was true.

Would an LDS say that the Pope on his deathbed praising apostolic succession, and Mary as co-redemtrix “proves” that these dogmas are true. Why would a man go to meet his Eternal Maker with such falsehood on his lips? These dogmas are true but praising them before you die does not validate them. And so with Joseph.

Hal

 

[Prince_Hal]

Or:

The story is a complete fabrication by John Taylor to bolster Smith’s status as a martyr.

and of course Taylor’s continuing bid to keep his high position and all that might entail in the future. Agreed many hardships, but he hardly did badly out of it. So perhaps rather selfish in the end.

 

[Prince_Hal]

I am familiar with his talk and he is totally correct.

The assault on the Book of Mormon is not new.

Folks here and the world in general need to realize that our efforts in sharing it will not stop and the effort to say all false things about the church serve no purpose.

Agreed you will keep peddling the bom. You will avoid the Biblical arguments against it, and common sense. But in all ages the faithful are called to illuminate heresy whereever it is found, including in our days the heresy of Mormonism. We must do what we feel God is calling us to do. That includes directly challenging Elder Holland inhis errors.

Wasn’t there a character in the bom who went around preaching heresy. When he was caught he admitted that he had been hoodwinked by the devil. I believe the people then trampled him. Wrong thing to do - but he was sincere - but wrong.

 

[Prince_Hal]

Hal,

I read your post and was confused that you misunderstood Holland’s message and argument. His argument was that Joseph Smith and thousands of others suffered and died holding true to their testimony that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. His question is why would a deciever endure so much? This was his point.

Not that because Hyrum read from Ether to comfort Joseph it must be true.

The Book of Mormon stands as a witness that Jesus is the Christ. What thanks do “believers” and detractors of this book give to this fact! If I was a non Christian, I would have more confindence in the Gospel Message knowing that there are more accounts of the risen Lord than just the Bible. You know, the Buddists have their holy books. Hindus have theirs. The Christians - well they have the Bible. Why should I believe that Jesus really is the Savior, and not just some figure in a great story told in one religion’s holy book?

Agreed. I heard the whole talk and undrstood the false argument being set up which ended with"… So it must be true". Many LDS will say, absolutely it must be true if he endured so much. But this is a poor and weak argument, accepted by only those who are unwilling to think. This thread has given many reasons why it isn’t the only conclusion or even the most plausible.

Back to the argument Hal…

Hollands talk was not about Hyrum reading part of the book of Ether so it must be true. that is ridiculous. We’re you not really paying attention till you heard him say that word (pathetic) which kind of woke me up a bit too?

This is what you said, “He then asked the congregation whether they thought that he would quote from a false book that claimed to be divine on his way to meet his Maker. Therefore it must be a true book - scripture, divinely sent.”

He went on and on about lots of trials and suffering Joseph Smith and others could have avoided if they let go of their claim that the Book of Mormon is as I have written above!

It wasn’t just about reading part of Ether.

 

[why_me]

J.Smith shot a member of the mob in the face killing him, then proceeded to the window with his hands in the air pronouncing “Oh Lord my God, is there no help for the widow’s son?” hoping the Masons in the crowd would then render him aide. One could speculate these are the actions of a desperate man, a desperate man not so willing to die for his cause as others had pointed out.

Not true. The only people that were killed were Joseph and his brother Hyrum. I think that you need to do some research.

Murder?
The critics’ third attack is to insist that since Joseph fired his gun six times (only three shots discharged) and he hit two of the mobbers, he is a murderer.

Joseph’s actions were clearly self-defense and defense of others under the common law. But, this point is moot since the mobbers who were hit were not killed (as was first reported in some Church publications) but only wounded. They were alive and well at the trial held for mob leaders, and were identified by witnesses. Their good health allowed them to receive gifts because of their role in the assault on Joseph, Hyrum, and the other prisoners.

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Martyrdom/Joseph_fired_a_gun

 

[why_me]

It empowers the Mormon congregations to simply quote and not to think. What arguments are pathetic, beyong the one or two word names. Go research them general populace of mormondom. Then thinkand pray and study. But that would be looked upon and described as a lack of faith and a slight against God.

Hal

Not true. Most mormons have heard of Spaulding. That story has been around for quite some time. I remember it from the 1970’s. Also, the Ethan Smith story and the View of the Hebrews is also known but not as well as the Spaulding theory.

What the talk did do is to give those lds who are contemplating leaving the lds church over theories about the origins of the book of mormon that they have read in the Internet something to think about. And the talk accomplished its job. They will think twice before accepting flimsy arguments against the book of mormon.

 

[why_me]

But are you an LDS? Then you are not “Christian”.
That makes you a non-Christian.

If you are christian, I would rather be muslim.

 

[why_me]

…They would have…except that the first doesn’t help the anti’s much; after all, if Joseph and Hyrum actually believed it was true…THINK about that one for a moment or two, eh?.., and the second really isn’t valid.

As well, even if Joseph and Hyrum were not aware that they were probably not going to survive, this was in private. They had no problem drinking wine with the jailer and his family; they had no problem with having a pistol brought to them. Why on earth would they have quoted from the Book of Mormon to comfort themselves for any reason, if they honestly believed it to be false?

Hal

Not true!

The Last Night in Carthage
After dinner, Smith and several church officials ordered some wine to be brought to the jail.157

The authors lead the reader to think that Joseph and his associates sat around drinking wine all night. Joseph’s final night consisted of testimony, study, and prophecy. The record reads:

During the evening the Patriarch Hyrum Smith read and commented upon extracts from the Book of Mormon, on the imprisonments and deliverance of the servants of God for the Gospel’s sake. Joseph bore a powerful testimony to the guards of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon, restoration of the Gospel, the administration of angels, and that the kingdom of God was again established upon the earth, for the sake of which he was then incarcerated in that prison, and not because he had violated any law of God or man.158

Later that night we read:

Soon after Dr. Richards retired to the bed which Joseph had left, and when all were apparently fast asleep, Joseph whispered to Dan Jones, “are you afraid to die?” Dan said, “Has that time come, think you?” “Engaged in such a cause I do not think that death would have many terrors.” Joseph replied, "You will yet see Wales, and fulfill the mission appointed you before you die."159

In fulfillment of this prophecy, Dan Jones fulfilled two missions to Whales and was an instrument in bringing nearly one thousand people into the church.

fairlds.org/Mormonism_201/m20117b.html

Why Hal are you so taken aback about what Holland said. It must have hit home.

 

[why_me]

.

The thing is, nobody is ever going to prove that the Book of Mormon is true, scientifically, any more than one can prove that the Bible is scientifically true. (especially since, well…it isn’t. Bats are NOT birds, and rabbits do NOT chew their cuds…) They aren’t ever going to prove that it is false, either, not scientifically. After all, the bible is true–and yet, bats are not birds, and rabbits do not chew their cuds.

Oh, oh, you are beginning to sound like me now.

 

[twopekinguys]

A point was made earlier regarding the actions of the Lord when the Roman Guard took him into custody. Peter had cut the ear off of a Roman Soldier, Jesus rebuked Peter then healed the guard.
J.Smith shot a member of the mob in the face killing him, then proceeded to the window with his hands in the air pronouncing “Oh Lord my God, is there no help for the widow’s son?” hoping the Masons in the crowd would then render him aide. One could speculate these are the actions of a desperate man, a desperate man not so willing to die for his cause as others had pointed out.
If he was the Martyr to his cause, why the urgent appeal to the Masons within the mob? Why the call for protection?
Why the brutal act of violence by shooting a man in the face and killing him? Of course this man was there to do harm and J.Smith and his friends were obligated to protect themselves, but don’t call a man a martyr when he doesn’t warrant the title.

You’re right, JS killed at least 2. Here is a quote from the history of the lds church

John Taylor, who became the third President of the Mormon Church, made these statements concerning the death of Joseph Smith:

"Elder Cyrus H. Wheelock came in to see us, and when he was about leaving drew a small pistol, a six-shooter, from his pocket, remarking at the same time, 'Would any of you like to have this?' Brother Joseph immediately replied, 'Yes, give it to me,' whereupon he took the pistol, and put it in his pantaloons pocket.... I was sitting at one of the front windows of the jail, when I saw a number of men, with painted faces, coming around the corner of the jail, and aiming towards the stairs....

"I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, 'Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!' He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I** afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died." ** (History of the Church, Vol. 7, p. 100, 102 & 103)

It is also backed up by this:

“Two other men were known to get hit in the hall, one a man named Townsend from Fort Madison, Iowa Territory, who died nine months later from the arm wound that wouldn’t heal, and another named Mills, who was shot in the arm.”

• Elder Reed Blake, 24 Hours to Martyrdom, p. 129

 

[ParkerD]

Agreed you will keep … the Book of Mormon. You will avoid the Biblical arguments against it, and common sense. But in all ages the faithful are called to illuminate heresy whereever it is found, including in our days the heresy of Mormonism. We must do what we feel God is calling us to do. That includes directly challenging Elder Holland in his errors.

Wasn’t there a character in the Book of Mormon who went around preaching heresy. When he was caught he admitted that he had been hoodwinked by the devil. I believe the apostate group he tried to beg from then trampled him. Wrong thing to do - but he was “sincere” when he was begging for food because he had lost his “livelihood” which came by false preaching- but wrong.

Hal,
There are no Biblical arguments against the Book of Mormon. There is far more “heresy” in the religion you changed to follow currently than any supposed “heresy” you thought you were following when you joined and served in the LDS church. But the important thing for you yourself is that you have chosen what you wanted–what was more to your liking. God gave you that choice through His perfect plan that allows all sorts of beliefs, and by trying now to justify your choice you merely confirm what Elder Holland said, and the word he used which becomes directly applicable.

 

[Kdesiel]

Not true. The only people that were killed were Joseph and his brother Hyrum. I think that you need to do some research.

Murder?
The critics’ third attack is to insist that since Joseph fired his gun six times (only three shots discharged) and he hit two of the mobbers, he is a murderer.

Joseph’s actions were clearly self-defense and defense of others under the common law. But, this point is moot since the mobbers who were hit were not killed (as was first reported in some Church publications) but only wounded. They were alive and well at the trial held for mob leaders, and were identified by witnesses. Their good health allowed them to receive gifts because of their role in the assault on Joseph, Hyrum, and the other prisoners.

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Martyrdom/Joseph_fired_a_gun

If you had been paying attention to my post you would have noted that I in fact justified J.Smith actions as self defense, he had every right to defend himself from vigilante justice. I was drawing a parallel between two persons. J.Smith and Jesus Christ. Christ upon being taken into custody was a willing and true lamb to the slaughter. Without resistance on his part the Lord went with the Roman guard knowing full well what was to become of him. He didn’t throw punches, draw a gladdious from under his robes and start stabbing people; he didn’t call down angels in defense of his person. He willingly went, with meekness and confidence knowing it had to be done.
J.Smith on the other hand killed two men and tried to flee for his life whilst attempting to enact mercy upon the mob by yelling a secretive “Save Me” phrase used within the Mason community.
See one is an example of a true martyr, the greatest example we can use. One had all the power to save himself but didn’t. He allowed his captors to take him.
The other struck out in violence and fear once faced with his mortality. I don’t have to speculate on that fact it is in his actions. Actions speak louder than words. “By the fruit of their works ye shall know them.” He tried everything he could given his present situation to save his own skin. Fought back with violence, he pulled a pistol from his pocket, tried to call angels in the form of Masons to his rescue to save him from his dire circumstance. Mormons like to point out this as proof of the truthfulness of their prophet, that he died as a “Lamb to the Slaughter” he sealed his testimony in his own blood like the Lord did. Match tit for tat and his actions are completely contrary to the example set forth by the Lord himself.
My main point being if J.Smith was truly willing to die for his belief then he would have followed the ultimate example set before him the example of Christ. He wouldn’t have shot people in the face, and tried to appeal to the mercy of another brotherhood that was present. As for not killing anyone well why do you do your research sir and read some Church History.

 

[dianaiad]

I’m not familiar with the cement cities thing, so I really can’t address that. (one more thing I have to research).

But, going to JS in the jail. If you want to look at it like a lamb to the slaughter, and he went freely, knowing he wouldn’t return alive, we have to look at a couple of possibilities here.

1. Look at Jesus when he was turned over. He went willingly, and didn’t resist. In fact, when the Roman had his ear cut off by Peter, he rebuked Peter, and healed the Roman guard. No similarities between Jesus and JS. there.

WE aren’t the ones who keep comparing Joseph Smith to Christ. We might compare him to PETER, but then…wasn’t Peter the one who swung the sword?

1. JS did fire on, and ultimately killed one of the mob. Again, doesn’t sound like an innocent lamb to the slaughter. (Remember the shooting in the face discussion on another thread)

Again, so? What he may have done after the decision that mattered–the only one which, had he chosen differently, would have saved his life, is irrelevant. The fact is, he DID choose to go to Carthage, knowing that he a: didn’t have to go and b: wouldn’t come back if he did go.

1. Let’s bring this into modern day, and assume he went to trial and was convicted. Chances are, a large number of his followers would have left him. Things would have died down, and then he would have started up again.(probably somewhere eles) Just like Jim Bakker from PT, where there are alot of similarities. (Sexual escapades, getting rich off of others, being arrested). Now Jim Bakker is at it again. He has a television ministry again, and is trying to raise money for another “faith community”, in Missouri this time. (alot of similarities here)

That’s a lot of assumptions there, and a few rather insulting ones. For one thing, Jim Bakker got very rich…that was the problem behind his convictions, come to think of it. Joseph did not get rich. He died broke.

1. Even if he wasn’t convicted, personnally, I think enough information would have come out to cause him to lose his “church”, or at a bare minimum, would have cause many many factions to break off.

He, most likely, would not have been convicted–the charges were bogus. They were made strictly in order to get him in a place where he could be ‘got at’ and murdered. If anybody thought for one minute that he would be convicted (“treason” carried the death penalty.) why would they have mobbed the jail?

But all that is irrelevent. The fact is, he knew he was going to his death. He didn’t have to go. He went anyway. Therefore the fact that he and the other men ‘comforted themselves’ with readings from the Book of Mormon indicate that he thought they were valid.

there isn’t any way you can get around that.

 

[dianaiad]

Jerusha,
OK, broaden the scope of your assertion. Find any pithy truth you like, from any source non-Biblical, and post that and we can compare the relevance of the content and the pithiness of the writing style and the authenticity of the writing itself.

Careful, there, Parker.

Oscar Wilde, Mark Twain, Herman Melville and a few others were FULL of 'pithy truths."

For instance, how about this one?

People who work sitting down get paid more than people who work standing up. ~Ogden Nash
THAT is a pithy truth…

You might want to narrow that to 'pithy moral or religious truth." (grin)

 

[dianaiad]

I would agree that some arguments are possibly stupuid, whilst others most certainly are not. But we will now have many more LDS members blindly, out of ignorance, repeating the same words as Holland has. Even in this post you did the same with your symbol expletive. It empowers the Mormon congregations to simply quote and not to think. What arguments are pathetic, beyong the one or two word names. Go research them general populace of mormondom. Then thinkand pray and study. But that would be looked upon and described as a lack of faith and a slight against God.

Aside from everything the contents of the book are nothing compared to the Bible.

One answer could be as you said that Joseph and Hyrum actually believed the book, being filled by the devil appearing as an angel of light. Was it Moroni that Joseph saw, or was it Nephi? He did not seem so sure himself until the PR machine got to work.

Hal

Well, as I said, it sets up an entirely different scenario, doesn’t it? If Joseph and Hyrum believed it (and they did.) then…what?

You can no longer call them 'charlatans" or “fakes,” can you? You can’t dismiss them as opportunists or con men.

The problem then is an entirely different one.

 

[dianaiad]

If you had been paying attention to my post you would have noted that I in fact justified J.Smith actions as self defense, he had every right to defend himself from vigilante justice. I was drawing a parallel between two persons. J.Smith and Jesus Christ. Christ upon being taken into custody was a willing and true lamb to the slaughter.

The problem with your point is this: you are moving the goal posts. Many of our critics accuse us of thinking that Joseph is Jesus, or is as important as Jesus, or is perfect as He was…but we don’t. We compare Joseph to the apostles and prophets…like Peter.

And Peter swung the sword. It is not fair of you to insist that Joseph be as Jesus was; nobody could be.

 

[twopekinguys]

WE aren’t the ones who keep comparing Joseph Smith to Christ. We might compare him to PETER, but then…wasn’t Peter the one who swung the sword?

I believe I did say that Peter swung the sword, and Jesus rebuked him for that. My point being, Jesus knew what was going to happen (similar to JS), yet Jesus went quietly, and did not promote or participate in violence. (not similar to JS)

Again, so? What he may have done after the decision that mattered–the only one which, had he chosen differently, would have saved his life, is irrelevant. The fact is, he DID choose to go to Carthage, knowing that he a: didn’t have to go and b: wouldn’t come back if he did go.

The thing is, he didn’t accept his fate as a martyr. Martyrs, while defending the faith, accept that fate freely. It is obvious by his killing some of the attackers is not accepting that fate. Remember, we had this conversation about him shooting at the attackers face, and you thought it wasn’t a "vital organ"

That’s a lot of assumptions there, and a few rather insulting ones. For one thing, Jim Bakker got very rich…that was the problem behind his convictions, come to think of it. Joseph did not get rich. He died broke.

**But JS had the potential of getting rich. He just happened to get killed before it happened. **

He, most likely, would not have been convicted–the charges were bogus. They were made strictly in order to get him in a place where he could be ‘got at’ and murdered. If anybody thought for one minute that he would be convicted (“treason” carried the death penalty.) why would they have mobbed the jail?

Can you say multiple wives? Some of whom were married to other men. Can you say destruction of a printing press? Can you say defaming the character of people who opposed him? As far as him being convicted or not. That is something we will never know.

But all that is irrelevent. The fact is, he knew he was going to his death. He didn’t have to go. He went anyway. Therefore the fact that he and the other men ‘comforted themselves’ with readings from the Book of Mormon indicate that he thought they were valid.

To me, them reading the BoM was a continuation of the pretense, thinking they would be acquitted, or rescued. After all, he was looking for fellow Mason’s to save him. Which obviously didn’t happen. Which also goes back to the possibility of him getting rich..

there isn’t any way you can get around that.

I think I just have.