Mormon Apostle states arguments against the Book of Mormon are "pathetic"

  • Thread starter Thread starter Prince_Hal
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hal,
There are no Biblical arguments against the Book of Mormon. There is far more “heresy” in the religion you changed to follow currently than any supposed “heresy” you thought you were following when you joined and served in the LDS church.
The book of mormon is a fraud, written poorly by a false prophet.
There was no moroni; no golden plates; no vast cities that 'ol Joe dreamed about. Zilch.

God warned us about “false prophets”. My dalmation (rest his soul) was more of a prophet than Joe Smith or Bring’em Young could ever hope to be.

Please find the truth, my man.
The problem with your point is this: you are moving the goal posts. Many of our critics accuse us of thinking that Joseph is Jesus, or is as important as Jesus, or is perfect as He was…but we don’t. We compare Joseph to the apostles and prophets…like Peter.

And Peter swung the sword. It is not fair of you to insist that Joseph be as Jesus was; nobody could be.
Joe Smith cannot be in any manner whatsoever compared to any Saint.
To do so is not only Christian heresy, but blasphemous.
 
He, most likely, would not have been convicted–the charges were bogus. They were made strictly in order to get him in a place where he could be ‘got at’ and murdered. If anybody thought for one minute that he would be convicted (“treason” carried the death penalty.) why would they have mobbed the jail?
Mob justice was pretty popular at the time. Whether or not a person would have been convicted was kind of irrelevant.
 
WE aren’t the ones who keep comparing Joseph Smith to Christ. We might compare him to PETER, but then…wasn’t Peter the one who swung the sword?
Did Peter start swinging a sword when he was about to be martyred?
 
Originally Posted by DanielWoods
Hal,
I read your post and was confused that you misunderstood Holland’s message and argument. His argument was that Joseph Smith and thousands of others suffered and died holding true to their testimony that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. His question is why would a deciever endure so much? This was his point.
That is also what why me says. Why would so many witnessess (11) die and never recant their story so it must be true. Through out the ages people have died for what they believed in but does that make what they believed true? If we accept such teaching then all the thousands of Germans that died in two attempts to conquer other nations were right. The Japanese were right. The Jehovah Witnessess that died refusing blood transfusion were right. David Koresh, Heavens Gate, Jim Jones and many others and their followers died for their beliefs. They all died for what they believed in, does that make them right?
 
The problem with your point is this: you are moving the goal posts. Many of our critics accuse us of thinking that Joseph is Jesus, or is as important as Jesus, or is perfect as He was…but we don’t. We compare Joseph to the apostles and prophets…like Peter.

And Peter swung the sword. It is not fair of you to insist that Joseph be as Jesus was; nobody could be.
Right you are and I never said Joseph was to be exactly as Jesus was but claiming to be a prophet of God going as a lamb to the slaughter as Jesus did he in no way acted the part.
Yes Peter did swing the sword when the LORD was taken into custody, how about Peter’s action when he himself was faced with death?

As Christians aren’t we supposed to use the Example of Christ in our daily lives?

Are we not supposed to use his actions in ALL situations as a template to work from?

J.Smith declared he was a prophet, he declared he saw and spoke not only with Christ face to face but also face to face with God the Father. Someone with such an intimate relationship with the Lord you would expect to portray the attributes of the master he claimed to serve and represent?

I would think so.

You claim it is unfair that nobody could be like Jesus could be, yet your doctrine states that through Temple ordinance such as celestial marriage, upholding both baptismal and temple covenants, you too can become GODS. Creating and having dominion over your own worlds. You say it is unfair to hold J.Smith at the same level as Christ yet you teach within your church that YOU WILL BECOME GODS. Isn’t that in and of itself putting you on the same plain as the Lord, putting yourself as an equal to God?

J.Smiths actions on the day he was murdered were in no way a reflection of a true martyr. His actions go contrary to the Christian example. You or I could be expected to act in such a manner possibly, but a Prophet of God, who supposedly had diologue with the Almighty face to face?
Don’t think so.
 
Careful, there, Parker.

Oscar Wilde, Mark Twain, Herman Melville and a few others were FULL of 'pithy truths." 😉

For instance, how about this one?

People who work sitting down get paid more than people who work standing up. ~Ogden Nash
THAT is a pithy truth…

You might want to narrow that to 'pithy moral or religious truth." (grin)
That is a pithy truth describing a regrettable situation, with bodies wearing out too young. How about the pithy truth that people often regrettably judge a person’s moral character or intellectual ability from the color of their skin? And when such an attitude is widely held by a people, it leads to their own destruction?

Search this: online-literature.com/quotes/quotations.php Can you find any from the BOM or prominent Mormon people?
 
That is a pithy truth describing a regrettable situation, with bodies wearing out too young. How about the pithy truth that people often regrettably judge a person’s moral character or intellectual ability from the color of their skin? And when such an attitude is widely held by a people, it leads to their own destruction?

Search this: online-literature.com/quotes/quotations.php Can you find any from the BOM or prominent Mormon people?
Jerusha,
But can you find very many (if any) from the Bible in that compilation? I don’t think that source was intending to be the one and only collection of worthwhile quotations that exist in the world.
 
Did Peter start swinging a sword when he was about to be martyred?
Maybe he didn’t have a chance. No man or woman should face death at the hands of another humbly or meekly. It would be a form of suicide if they did.

Lets look at it this way: were the jews who were killed during the Warsaw uprising in WWII martyrs? Of course they were. And what about the jews at Masada as they fought against the Romans? Of course they were martyrs.
 
Right you are and I never said Joseph was to be exactly as Jesus was but claiming to be a prophet of God going as a lamb to the slaughter as Jesus did he in no way acted the part.

Don’t think so.
Have you ever seen a lamb going to be slaughtered. They are not silent and they certainly have some struggle in them.

There are all types of martyrs. A martyr is not only someone who accepts his or her fate meekly. They can die fighting and yet, still be martyrs if they died because of their faith. And joseph fits that bill.
 
As Christians aren’t we supposed to use the Example of Christ in our daily lives?

Are we not supposed to use his actions in ALL situations as a template to work from?

Don’t think so.
Please no lectures until you scold the so called antimormon catholics for mocking, and bashing the lds who post on the mormon threads. They are certainly not using the example of christ in their daily livess. And they are certainly not using His actions as a template to work from.

The hypocrisy is disgusting.
 
That is also what why me says. Why would so many witnessess (11) die and never recant their story so it must be true. Through out the ages people have died for what they believed in but does that make what they believed true? If we accept such teaching then all the thousands of Germans that died in two attempts to conquer other nations were right. The Japanese were right. The Jehovah Witnessess that died refusing blood transfusion were right. David Koresh, Heavens Gate, Jim Jones and many others and their followers died for their beliefs. They all died for what they believed in, does that make them right?
Give me a break. Not only are there 11 witnesses. I would say that there are many more. First the wives of the 11 witnesses. Then we have Joseph’s wife Emma and his mom Lucy. Plus we also have his sisters who knew their brother very well. The list is quite long. And no one ever claimed it was a fraud who could have been in the know. Plus we have disloyality among the witnesses because some left the lds church but never denied what they saw. Now that is amazing.
 
Mob justice was pretty popular at the time. Whether or not a person would have been convicted was kind of irrelevant.
So was destroying a printing press but no critic brings that up when they speak of Joseph Smith. It is always amazing that we can attempt to justify murder. But you are right. Frontier justice was in a league of its own. And the mormons experienced it throughout the early church until they went west to Utah.
 
Give me a break. Not only are there 11 witnesses. I would say that there are many more. First the wives of the 11 witnesses. Then we have Joseph’s wife Emma and his mom Lucy. Plus we also have his sisters who knew their brother very well. The list is quite long. And no one ever claimed it was a fraud who could have been in the know. Plus we have disloyality among the witnesses because some left the lds church but never denied what they saw. Now that is amazing.
How many of those actually saw the plates with their eyes, and not in a vision, outside of the 8? Did Emma Smith actually see the plates? Did Lucy Smith see the plates as well?

And are you claiming that the 11 witnesses are more people than found in the examples ricko gave?
 
As usual a false argument was set up to play to the faithful LDS members. Apparently Hyrum Smith (Joseph Smith’s brother) quoted comforting words from the Book of Ether (one of the books in the Book of Mormon) as they went to their deaths (I agree this was murder).

He then asked the congregation whether they thought that he would quote from a false book that claimed to be divine on his way to meet his Maker. Therefore it must be a true book - scripture, divinely sent.
If he really argued like that I truly wonder how he can call other people’s arguments against the BoM pathetic?
Who said he did not believe it was true? Strong delusion, demonic visions… there is a lot that could have happened in this case apart from the LDS explanation about how the BoM came into being…
 
How many of those actually saw the plates with their eyes, and not in a vision, outside of the 8? Did Emma Smith actually see the plates? Did Lucy Smith see the plates as well?

And are you claiming that the 11 witnesses are more people than found in the examples ricko gave?
Well the problem is that most of the so-called witnesses were discredited in other ways afterwards… some of them said that they did not see the plates at all… some were called pathologic liars and most were excommunicated in the end…
The only ones who actually sticked to the story from the beginning till their own end without any doubt were J. Smith’s closest male relatives…
 
I think Joseph Smith believed in the Book of Mormon he was reading from. He really believed what he had written and preached to people. That doesn’t mean that it is true. It means he believed it was true. Likewise Hyrum believed in his brother.

Lots of people believe in a lot of different things. They truly do. That doesn’t make thier beliefs true.
 
Well the problem is that most of the so-called witnesses were discredited in other ways afterwards… some of them said that they did not see the plates at all… some were called pathologic liars and most were excommunicated in the end…
The only ones who actually sticked to the story from the beginning till their own end without any doubt were J. Smith’s closest male relatives…
I agree. The standard response to this is that while they may have been called liars or excommunicated, etc., they never denied their original testimony of witnessing the plates.
 
I watched the video and really wonder what all the hubbub is about. With all the build up, I was expecting something more interesting.

I noted that Holland said Joseph provided a witness/testimony to the guards while in prison. I was a bit confused as to whether this was at a time for re-reading that Ether passage or not. When exactly was the private moment again?

Regardless, many people believe their own words, writings, advice, especially the core message of it. That’s why they write or speak them!

Typically, the arguments used here (private words of comfort, witnesses dying before recanting) ignore other possibilities. Is it not typical, psychologically, for someone who has become deeply invested in something, even something that began as a lie, to stick to it even harder the deeper they are invested in it? Certainly the Smiths were very deeply invested in the BoM. As for the other witnesses, few testified to angels, and only some to even seeing the plates, IIRC. Could not fakes have convinced simple people, particularly relatives? What about threats? These are other alternatives.

Given the similarity to other historical religious sects (most notably Islam), given the nature of how the Adversary works spreading corruption and untruths among truths in often-discernible patterns through the ages, and given the Biblical admonitions against trusting in angels, I think it more likely there is indeed a spiritual component. One that could easily feign truth, and one foretold and prophesied. But it is far from a true spirit. Smithians always seem to ignore this possibility.

As for Tolkien quotes, since I like him (and find that he alone demonstrates one man can easily have enough creativity to write the BoM, since his own creation was far more elegant):

“Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends.”

“All that we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.”

“He should not vow to walk in the dark, who has not seen the nightfall.”

“I have no help to send, therefore I must go myself.”

“Few can foresee whither their road will lead them, till they come to its end.”

“The deeds will not be less valiant because they are unpraised.”

“Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.”

“Little by little, one travels far.”

“If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”

“His house was perfect, whether you liked food, or sleep, or work, or story-telling, or singing, or just sitting and thinking, best, or a pleasant mixture of them all.”
 
The youtube video is 16 minutes of my life that I will never get back.

Holland showed NO compassion for those of us who have left. He is very offensive. Not that it matters in the end. He, at least, tells it like it is. He doesn’t act like the average Mormon doesn’t think exactly the same way about those of us who have left. He doesn’t sugar coat it like most on the internet do.

At least I’ve got to respect him for that.

in Christ
Steph
 
The youtube video is 16 minutes of my life that I will never get back.

Holland showed NO compassion for those of us who have left. He is very offensive. Not that it matters in the end. He, at least, tells it like it is. He doesn’t act like the average Mormon doesn’t think exactly the same way about those of us who have left. He doesn’t sugar coat it like most on the internet do.

At least I’ve got to respect him for that.

in Christ
Steph
Don’t even think about it Steph, we’re glad to have you home in the Catholic Church. :grouphug:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top