Mormon Apostle states arguments against the Book of Mormon are "pathetic"

[tundramom]

Don’t even think about it Steph, we’re glad to have you home in the Catholic Church. :grouphug:

Me too ThurifAcolyte. I’m more than satisfied in where God has led me. I AM HOME! Home like I’ve never been before. Don’t worry. I’m not going anywhere. Just like in John 6… where would I go?

in Christ
Steph

 

[Prince_Hal]

Why Hal are you so taken aback about what Holland said. It must have hit home.

Fair question. My wife posed the same question (she is LDS).

I was indignant because I saw this as another sign of “listen to what I say, I am your leader”. Not necessarily anything wrong with this, but it seemed to me that the underlying comment was "…and only listen to me. Don’t think about anything else. Don’t even dare look at the arguments. They are ‘pathetic’ ". To even question is a sign of weakness and lack of faith.

It is this time of control that frustrates me. It isn’t obedience and being faithful and humble to do this, but that will be the spin that is given. It’s a way of keeping the membership in check and following. And so people stay mormon instead of moving closer to Christ. Mormon first, Christian second.

So that is why I reacted to the talk.

Perhaps the walls of the temple are cracking. Perhaps Holland is reacting to something and he is “spooked”.

God bless,

Hal.

 

[Prince_Hal]

Me too ThurifAcolyte. I’m more than satisfied in where God has led me. I AM HOME! Home like I’ve never been before. Don’t worry. I’m not going anywhere. Just like in John 6… where would I go?

in Christ
Steph

Congratulations Steph. God bless you. Pray for me. :sad_bye:

 

[tundramom]

Congratulations Steph. God bless you. Pray for me. :sad_bye:

Of course! You are loved and prayed for.

in Christ
Steph

 

[zerinus]

I think Joseph Smith believed in the Book of Mormon he was reading from. He really believed what he had written and preached to people. That doesn’t mean that it is true. It means he believed it was true. Likewise Hyrum believed in his brother.

Lots of people believe in a lot of different things. They truly do. That doesn’t make thier beliefs true.

Have you considered the actual story of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon? First we have the story of the First Vision:

Joseph Smith–History:

15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

Then we have the story of the visitation of the Angel Moroni:

Joseph Smith–History:

30 While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.

31 He had on a loose robe of most exquisite whiteness. It was a whiteness beyond anything earthly I had ever seen; nor do I believe that any earthly thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant. His hands were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrist; so, also, were his feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom.

32 Not only was his robe exceedingly white, but his whole person was glorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning. The room was exceedingly light, but not so very bright as immediately around his person. When I first looked upon him, I was afraid; but the fear soon left me.

33 He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.

Then we have the intricate history of him obtaining the plated; the persecution that followed by people who tried to steal them from him; the loss of the 116 pages of the original translation; the process of translating the plates by the Urim and Thummim (and partially by the seer-stone); the involvement of several people who wrote for him as he dictated the text; the testimony of the eleven witness; and many other factors involved that would be too lengthy to relate in any detail. Now if he just “believed” all of that was true when in fact it wasn’t, that would have made him (and a lot of those involved with him) the most deranged, hallucinating, psychotic nutcases ever! You can accuse Joseph Smith of anything you like; but I don’t think you can accuse him (and those working with him) of having been utterly mad! That is the one accusation that I don’t think fits the bill.

 

[Arandur]

Zerinus, what’s so different for Joseph Smith than for many, many others who have related (even similar) spiritual experiences over the years? Even ones who believe they have led to revelations (like Muhammed, those Shakers that keep being brought up, various cultists, various Protestant sects, even televangelists)?

For that matter, are you aware of the many, many spiritual experiences, visions, and visitations Catholics have had throughout the centuries of angels, saints, and Jesus Himself? Why believe Joseph Smith and not the others?

 

[dianaiad]

Zerinus, what’s so different for Joseph Smith than for many, many others who have related (even similar) spiritual experiences over the years? Even ones who believe they have led to revelations (like Muhammed, those Shakers that keep being brought up, various cultists, various Protestant sects, even televangelists)?

For that matter, are you aware of the many, many spiritual experiences, visions, and visitations Catholics have had throughout the centuries of angels, saints, and Jesus Himself? Why believe Joseph Smith and not the others?

Now THAT is a great question.

The answer, of course, is very subjective, as religion always is. The answer is…why are you a Catholic, rather than something else?

 

[zerinus]

Zerinus, what’s so different for Joseph Smith than for many, many others who have related (even similar) spiritual experiences over the years? Even ones who believe they have led to revelations (like Muhammed, those Shakers that keep being brought up, various cultists, various Protestant sects, even televangelists)?

For that matter, are you aware of the many, many spiritual experiences, visions, and visitations Catholics have had throughout the centuries of angels, saints, and Jesus Himself? Why believe Joseph Smith and not the others?

The short answer is that there is no comparison.

 

[Kdesiel]

Me too ThurifAcolyte. I’m more than satisfied in where God has led me. I AM HOME! Home like I’ve never been before. Don’t worry. I’m not going anywhere. Just like in John 6… where would I go?

in Christ
Steph

Steph,
I too left the Church. Praise God you found your way home.
Just wanted to add my two cents.

 

[Janet1983]

I agree. The standard response to this is that while they may have been called liars or excommunicated, etc., they never denied their original testimony of witnessing the plates.

Interestingly enough a notorious liar is already discrediting himself in a court of law… How do you know when they tell the truth… The LDS church calls them that however…

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Now THAT is a great question.

The answer, of course, is very subjective, as religion always is. The answer is…why are you a Catholic, rather than something else?

And the answer is because I think it is true.

And you believe that the Mormon religion is true.

So these arguments are rather silly. Faith means that you believe in something without having proof. People who are always trying to find tangible proof of thier beliefs, don’t really have faith.

 

[Kdesiel]

Please no lectures until you scold the so called antimormon catholics for mocking, and bashing the lds who post on the mormon threads. They are certainly not using the example of christ in their daily livess. And they are certainly not using His actions as a template to work from.

The hypocrisy is disgusting.

(Laughing) That is interesting…YOU mentioning hypocrisy.

 

[Kdesiel]

Have you ever seen a lamb going to be slaughtered. They are not silent and they certainly have some struggle in them.

There are all types of martyrs. A martyr is not only someone who accepts his or her fate meekly. They can die fighting and yet, still be martyrs if they died because of their faith. And joseph fits that bill.

J.Smith, not a martyr he did not willingly die for his cause. Simple as that. His actions, not others opinions point to that fact. Actions documented on both sides of the argument.

Lamb to the slaughter suggests someone with out guile and sin going in meekness giving their life for their cause in humility.
The lamb is figurative for the persons spiritual nature, much like an unblemished lamb being sacrified in the OT. A representation of what was to come, when the last and Great Sacrifice of Christ was to happen.

 

[Arandur]

Now THAT is a great question.

The answer, of course, is very subjective, as religion always is. The answer is…why are you a Catholic, rather than something else?

Dodge, dodge, dodge.

That’s not an answer, that’s a question.
As for answering it, as I and many others here have said, the answer is that our faith gives assent to our reason (and vice versa), that we have been convinced by the evidence of the Scriptures and history (Tradition) that the only true Church, if God is at all trustworthy and Christ a man of His promises and not the butt of His own parables, is the Catholic Church. I could go through those evidences, but many have already touched on several here. A list might be more succinct, if you’re actually interested (but I’m not sure you really are).

The short answer is that there is no comparison.

Dodge, dodge, dodge.

Then give me the long answer, because that one was without any rational basis. Why do you think there is no comparison?

I could say also that there is “no” (little) comparison (in credibility), but my meaning would be totally opposite yours. Smith and his story are simply stupid and absurd on the face of it, which makes it “no comparison” to more believable testimonies. More helpful to this discussion, there are some characteristics of his stories that quickly end its credibility. One is simply the idea that he saw God Himself (alone among all mankind, despite Christ’s words that only HE had); another is that he says he saw God and Jesus separately, standing next to each other, and God, who apparently speaks independently of His WORD (Jesus), is incapable of speaking for Himself, but says instead to listen to Jesus. Then there was the appearance of darkness and the admonitions we have from Scripture not to trust such new messages and false prophecy. Then there’s what such an appearance and statements from God would make of God’s own words in Scripture previously (rendering God a fool, a liar, and an oathbreaker). Then there’s the similarities with similar false apparitions/revelations (Muhammed most closely). Then there’s Smith’s own very dubious character, as borne out afterwards in life as well through his egyptological charlatainism, megalomania, lusts, greed, and crimes. Yes indeed, “no comparison” with the visions and visitations to many others.

 

[tundramom]

Steph,
I too left the Church. Praise God you found your way home.
Just wanted to add my two cents.

Kdesiel,
Mine was a long and winding road to find my way home, but I wouldn’t change it for the world. Were you raised LDS?

in Christ
Steph

 

[ParkerD]

Zerinus, what’s so different for Joseph Smith than for many, many others who have related (even similar) spiritual experiences over the years? Even ones who believe they have led to revelations (like Muhammed, those Shakers that keep being brought up, various cultists, various Protestant sects, even televangelists)?

For that matter, are you aware of the many, many spiritual experiences, visions, and visitations Catholics have had throughout the centuries of angels, saints, and Jesus Himself? Why believe Joseph Smith and not the others?

Arandur,
I see you would like an answer to this question. (I didn’t reply to your longer post a day or so ago, because I thought my responses would probably offend several people and I had already covered some of those issues in the “church in hiding” thread a few weeks ago.) Any reader of the New Testament can see that the early church experienced many break-offs on a number of points of doctrine and leadership issues.

The reason I believe Joseph Smith and not the others is for the reason that related to that earlier conversation. One either understands the Holy Spirit, or not, but those who do are familiar with a source of knowledge that is completely irrefutable by human means. Televangelists play on emotions and “feel-good-isms”, of course. Their goal is to raise money. People seeking “spiritual experiences” can get them, and can talk about them and be as excited and thrilled and convinced as can be. That doesn’t mean the spiritual experience was from a divine source.

If one really plumbs the depths of the details, one can figure out which are genuine and which are not. Where does the “spiritual experience” lead? What does the person do with the information? How was the information presented? How do they describe the involvement of the Holy Spirit? How does it impact others?

You would of course have derogatory answers to every one of those questions about the revelations and experiences Joseph Smith had. But you see, the Holy Spirit only testifies to each person individually, not to a group of people collectively, so each person must rely on their own understanding of whether they have the correct source of knowledge (the Holy Spirit), or not. They must come to understand the process of communication. If they do, then it is so easy to tell the difference that it really is like being outside in full sunshine versus being in a room where the lighting may be exciting and stimulating, but the sunshine is not there.

 

[why_me]

Fair question. My wife posed the same question (she is LDS).

I was indignant because I saw this as another sign of “listen to what I say, I am your leader”. Not necessarily anything wrong with this, but it seemed to me that the underlying comment was "…and only listen to me. Don’t think about anything else. Don’t even dare look at the arguments. They are ‘pathetic’ ". To even question is a sign of weakness and lack of faith.

It is this time of control that frustrates me. It isn’t obedience and being faithful and humble to do this, but that will be the spin that is given. It’s a way of keeping the membership in check and following. And so people stay mormon instead of moving closer to Christ. Mormon first, Christian second.

So that is why I reacted to the talk.

Hal.

Religion is about control. The catholic faith also exercises control over its members. It is done in various of ways. One, it is a sin not to attend church on sunday. Sunday is a day of obligation. Also, the catholic faith has also days of obligation during the week at certain times of the year. That is also control.

Plus, confession to a priest can also be seen as a means to control the members. Please tell me one christian faith that does not exercise control over its members in some way.

I don’t think that the catholic church would encourage catholics to look at anticatholic arguments either.

 

[why_me]

The youtube video is 16 minutes of my life that I will never get back.

Holland showed NO compassion for those of us who have left. He is very offensive. Not that it matters in the end. He, at least, tells it like it is. He doesn’t act like the average Mormon doesn’t think exactly the same way about those of us who have left. He doesn’t sugar coat it like most on the internet do.

At least I’ve got to respect him for that.

in Christ
Steph

I think that he did. And he wasn’t offensive. He tried to warn the members not to buy into antimormon agruments about the book of mormon and in that he was successful. It really wasn’t about those who left but it was about those who stay and who may be influenced by antimormon arguments about the book of mormon. And in that he didn’t need to sugar coat it.

 

[why_me]

And the answer is because I think it is true.

And you believe that the Mormon religion is true.

So these arguments are rather silly. Faith means that you believe in something without having proof. People who are always trying to find tangible proof of thier beliefs, don’t really have faith.

true, but since this is a catholic forum, the catholics are constantly attempting to prove the lds church false and its members just a little stupid. Now it would be a wonderful world if people would just let others worship their faith without trying to tear down someone’s faith. But…it can never be this way.

You have described many of the catholics on this forum who attempt to find tangible proof of their beliefs. But I think that it is only human to do so.

 

[why_me]

How many of those actually saw the plates with their eyes, and not in a vision, outside of the 8? Did Emma Smith actually see the plates? Did Lucy Smith see the plates as well?

And are you claiming that the 11 witnesses are more people than found in the examples ricko gave?

There were 11. However if they were all fraudsters, the wives would have found out. And by keeping silent, which they did, would be accomplices to the fraud. Emma was not stupid. She believed the book of mormon and was with JS as he went about hiding the plates from the thieves. How could he keep such a secret away from his wife as he carried the plates around if there were no plates.

Women have a way of getting secrets out of their husbands.