How am I attempting to do that? I have not in any way denied that these were indeed martyrs, y’know. So were all the many people who died for faiths that you don’t happen to agree with.
No I’m not. They accepted it when they made the decision to keep their beliefs rather than change them and save their mortal lives. If, in the face of (at the time) legal persecution, they behaved with calm dignity and great courage in acceptance, that is…well, there isn’t a word that properly discribes that action on their part. “Wonderful” only reads ‘sarcasm’ when there is none meant.
However, this is the action of those who are faced with the sort of deaths that the culture around them dictated; the laws demanded them; they committed a crime, and calmly accepting the consequences of breaking that law is precisely what they should have done.
It only pointed up the incredible injustice of the law and the culture that was arrayed against them.
Joseph Smith’s case was different. Had he gone to trial, been convicted and hung, I’m certain that he would have behaved in as passive and submissive a manner as could be expected of a Christian facing a lion in an arena, but he wasn’t, was he?
He was attacked by men who were acting OUTSIDE the law they had sworn to uphold. Every man and woman should protest that, in whatever manner he or she can…including shooting back.
…and Joseph did. He chose to go to Carthage. he did not have to go to Carthage. He knew that he was willingly going to his death…what more do you want?
Most of the early Christian martyrs did everything they could to avoid being matyrs, y’know. They hid in catacombs. They moved around. They met in secret. I don’t see that they 'calmly accepted the will of God" until the will of the law caught up with them.
Now, this is NOT to disparage them in any way; they could have saved their lives simply by obeying the law as it then stood. They chose not to give up their beliefs, or to worship other gods…and for that, they were sentenced and they died.
…and I do not for one minute suppose that Joseph would have behaved with any less dignity had he stood in front of a lawful firing squad, or under a noose.
However, the early Christians, if they could escape from their fate without betraying their beliefs, DID so.
And Joseph could have escaped from his fate, also.
…by the way, he did NOT 'kill two men." He shot three, and one MAY have died from his wounds (though that one was certainly alive enough many months later to stand trial for Joseph’s murder) but that’s up for debate. He did NOT kill two, as much as they deserved it.
Whoa!!
Take a breath.
First of all, there is more to being a martyr than just being killed. They have to accept their fate freely. Shooting back, and yes killing them is not accepting that freely.
In your previous post, where you talked about those facing the lions. You convienently left out the many that freely stood there, and accepted their death for what they stood for.
But obviously I wasn’t clear enough for you to understand.
Yes, he did kill two. Whether you want to believe it or not. It is documented in your church history. Maybe you should try and read it sometime.
Just because someone does not die instantly of their injury doesn’t mean he wasn’t killed.
I provided you a quote (in another thread) where one of the individuals that JS shot died some 9 months later from his wounds. Again, this is a statement from an elder of your chuch. JS inflicted the wound, the guy died. That is murder, just like JS was murdered.
Do you want me to post them again for you? Here they are.
John Taylor, who became the third President of the Mormon Church, made these statements concerning the death of Joseph Smith:
"Elder Cyrus H. Wheelock came in to see us, and when he was about leaving drew a small pistol, a six-shooter, from his pocket, remarking at the same time, ‘Would any of you like to have this?’ Brother Joseph immediately replied, ‘Yes, give it to me,’ whereupon he took the pistol, and put it in his pantaloons pocket… I was sitting at one of the front windows of the jail, when I saw a number of men, with painted faces, coming around the corner of the jail, and aiming towards the stairs…
“I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, ‘Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!’ He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died.”
(History of the Church, Vol. 7, p. 100, 102 & 103)
and
“Two other men were known to get hit in the hall, one a man named Townsend from Fort Madison, Iowa Territory, who died nine months later from the arm wound that wouldn’t heal, and another named Mills, who was shot in the arm.”
- Elder Reed Blake, 24 Hours to Martyrdom, p. 129
These are from LDS elders, and someone who ultimately became president of your church. Are they liars? mistaken? delusional?
Or was it a transcription error?
Come on Diania, I have alot more respect for you than that.
As we discussed on another thread. I will agree that JS murder was wrong, but I will not agree that he was a martyr, and I will not agree that he was killed solely for religous reasons.
If fact, one of your final posts on that thread was that you were willing to compromise.
See:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5322678#post5322678
Your post #54
