Mormon Baptism

[silverwings_88]

majick275:

not hardly. we KNOW about LDS secret doctrines/practices. The LDS church freely admits they exist. I think you may have misunderstood MY point. That being the extreme difficulty of finding LDS doctrine written down in an authoratative manner. You can’t discuss the temple ceremopny and its implications. There are LDS posters here who deny that there even IS such a thing as eternal progression. Adam-God, polygamy, the pre-existence, the afterlife… these and many otheres quickly go to the realm of speculation because the “official” doctrine isn’t documented.

Wow. I wonder what kind of saints those people where, because from my participation of LDS Seminary (not for the last few weeks because of school) and meeting missionaries, they explained about the afterlife, pre-existence (calling this the “Plan of Salvation”). Because polygmy was overruled by words of the Prophet and the government, it is not practiced, and therefore not taught, although it is apparent in D&C.

When they “witnessed” to me, they used many quotes from D&C and the BoM (although the Pearl of Great Price seems to be quiet from almost all LDS circles, even moreso with the Heavenly Mother. I created a thread, and NO response was given from any LDS member).

Anyways, I think one should consider the beginning of the topic. It would be nice if the OP could interview his or her friend on what made him come back initially, and what aspects did he like in Mormonism in detail I would like to see that, because I might be able to learn from him!

 

[jim1130]

Casen:

I’m sure I wouldn’t have to search too hard to find an ex-Catholic that could tell me about the “con” that is (from their perspective) Catholocism… but what would I really learn.

The point I was trying to make, which you didn’t seem to grasp, is that apostates are not good sources of unbiased information. If you want to really learn about another faith you go to a devout and well educated believing member of that faith. I met a Catholic Cardinal during my LDS mission to South America and we amicably discusses Catholicism at length and what I learned was fascinating. When I wanted to learn about Judaism I took a university course from a respected Jewish Rabbi.

However, if all you really want a distorted view of a religion that supports your presupposed and biased theories about it then you want to talk to a guy that “studied” it for two whole months! got baptized and then left two weeks later….

You are right.I can find the falsehoods in the LDS beginning with Joseph Smith and then proceeding to the levels of Heaven, multiple gods (“our God was created by another god and that we will all become gods someday”), the Apostasy, etc. In the Catholic Church, everything is out in front. Nothing is hidden. Nothing is secret. There is no pecking order. Seems to me that the LDS serves the dessert before the entree. Adam and Michael are one in the same? Are Jesus and Lucifer the same, only one is the fallne angel because his plan for salvation that he “pitched” to God was rejected?

 

[majick275]

paul barlow:

AGAIN WE ARE BEING A LITTLE DEAF THERE ARE NO SECRETS
whats your problem. you realy do need to behave. there are no secrets. if there were how do you know about them. if we were so evil and dangerous as you make us out to be. i would then be very nervous about the next lot of elders visiting you.

Secret/Sacred it has the same effect. There are things that are not taught to potential converts and they may not be revealed until one goes to the Temple. I know then because I used to be veil worker. There are doctrines and teachings that are no longer “emphasized” but that have not been eliminated. I don’t think there will be any elders visiting me and if there were I assure they would be quite safe and well treated. I do not advocate any persecution of Mormons. I think abortion is evil but I do not do anything outside of the law to oppose the practice.

 

[paul_barlow]

majick275:

Secret/Sacred it has the same effect. There are things that are not taught to potential converts and they may not be revealed until one goes to the Temple. I know then because I used to be veil worker. There are doctrines and teachings that are no longer “emphasized” but that have not been eliminated. I don’t think there will be any elders visiting me and if there were I assure they would be quite safe and well treated. I do not advocate any persecution of Mormons. I think abortion is evil but I do not do anything outside of the law to oppose the practice.

what secrets do you teach a new convert deep doctrine stratght off you start with the basics and build on them. We do teach about the temple as you should know. both in the missionary lessions and the temple prep class. so you were a veil worker. So what secret rite were you given which us poor misguided members are not. by the way how did you feel working in the temple.

 

[majick275]

There are no secrets in Catholic doctrine/practice. All interested persons may go to Catholic Curches and see and discuss any and all sacraments. RCIA is very thorough in teaching the Catholic faith. There are no things you have to wait to discuss. You may teach ABOUT the Temple but you are very limited in what you are able to discuss about it. I wasn’t privy to any secrets in the Temple that other temple attending LDS weren’t. BUT none of those ordinances in the Temple are discussed in any detail outside of the temple. The Temple is a big reason why I left the LDS church. It didn’t feel right to me and I tried for a long time to attend enough to find some way of seeing that it was “right”. That never happened. It led me to a deeper study of Mormonism and thus I came to a point where it became obvious to me that it was manmade religion full of false doctrines. My intense study of Christianity led me to the Catholic faith and a very thorough study of catholicism inspired me to join the Catholic church. If you want to discuss specifics about the Temple ordinances and my problems there I am willing. I had refrained out of respect for you. Notice in my post on Temple ordinances I said nothing that can’t be found in public writings of LDS general authorities.

 

[paul_barlow]

majick275:

There are no secrets in Catholic doctrine/practice. All interested persons may go to Catholic Curches and see and discuss any and all sacraments. RCIA is very thorough in teaching the Catholic faith. There are no things you have to wait to discuss. You may teach ABOUT the Temple but you are very limited in what you are able to discuss about it. I wasn’t privy to any secrets in the Temple that other temple attending LDS weren’t. BUT none of those ordinances in the Temple are discussed in any detail outside of the temple. The Temple is a big reason why I left the LDS church. It didn’t feel right to me and I tried for a long time to attend enough to find some way of seeing that it was “right”. That never happened. It led me to a deeper study of Mormonism and thus I came to a point where it became obvious to me that it was manmade religion full of false doctrines. My intense study of Christianity led me to the Catholic faith and a very thorough study of catholicism inspired me to join the Catholic church. If you want to discuss specifics about the Temple ordinances and my problems there I am willing. I had refrained out of respect for you. Notice in my post on Temple ordinances I said nothing that can’t be found in public writings of LDS general authorities.

did you ever discuss your problems with the temple president. sorry i find no difficulty serving in the temple.
why did you become a worker if you felt unhappy in the temple. what was happening in your life when you felt this way.
could you not have talked with your bishop close member friends.
so you are saying all through your temple service you never felt the spirit. if that is the case there was something going on in your life that was taking the spirit away.
lets see if we can find were the real problem was.
ps we are the true chruch of christ not a man made church as you say.
by the way your covenants are still in force so do please remember what you commited to. when was the last time you went to the temple. when did you become inactive when did you start studying other churchs teaching.

 

[jim1130]

paul barlow:

did you ever discuss your problems with the temple president. sorry i find no difficulty serving in the temple.
why did you become a worker if you felt unhappy in the temple. what was happening in your life when you felt this way.
could you not have talked with your bishop close member friends.
so you are saying all through your temple service you never felt the spirit. if that is the case there was something going on in your life that was taking the spirit away.
lets see if we can find were the real problem was.
ps we are the true chruch of christ not a man made church as you say.
by the way your covenants are still in force so do please remember what you commited to. when was the last time you went to the temple. when did you become inactive when did you start studying other churchs teaching.

I think majick275 exhibited immense courage and strength rather than be coerced by other’s not to exert his right to free will to find the truth. And your comment that you are the “true church of christ not man made church” is interesting since Catholicsm is from Jesus and Mormonism is from Joseph Smith. Others may exhibit patience toward you on this site, but since I question your motives for being on this site I am less likely to be as patient.

 

[paul_barlow]

jim1130:

I think majick275 exhibited immense courage and strength rather than be coerced by other’s not to exert his right to free will to find the truth. And your comment that you are the “true church of christ not man made church” is interesting since Catholicsm is from Jesus and Mormonism is from Joseph Smith. Others may exhibit patience toward you on this site, but since I question your motives for being on this site I am less likely to be as patient.

oh dear what a shame
these questions are fair and reasonable.
it was as you said a big step for majick275 to change faith. So its fair to ask why he changed the questions i posed to majick are reasonable ones lets see what he says shall we. i am here to defend my faith from attack whats your purpose.

 

[majick275]

paul barlow:

did you ever discuss your problems with the temple president.

I asked questions of the Temple president to get information and was often told to go more often and the spirit would teach me.
paul barlow:

sorry i find no difficulty serving in the temple.
why did you become a worker if you felt unhappy in the temple.

Hey my parents spend a full day there every week. They love it. In the beginning I felt “weird” I was told that’s normal just go more often and I’ll start learning. Then I felt nothing. I though if I went enough (and when I was counseled to I became a veil worker) That I would eventually get something out of it that cause it all to make sense. It didn’t and I stopped going.
paul barlow:

what was happening in your life when you felt this way.

Things were going well. Work - good, kids- good, wife - good. No sins or wanting to go out and sin.
paul barlow:

could you not have talked with your bishop close member friends.

I didn’t want get exed for apostasy when I wasn’t sure, then I spoke to my bishop to say “I quit”. Look, I knew his thoughts, I was his second counselor. I did speak some close member friends. One has left the church, two are inactive now and the other is active but doesn’t beleive it’s true, he just doesn’t want to upset his family so he and his wife “fake it”.
paul barlow:

so you are saying all through your temple service you never felt the spirit.

There were times when I thought I did. Now that I have REALLY received the Holy Spirit I know better.
paul barlow:

if that is the case there was something going on in your life that was taking the spirit away.
lets see if we can find were the real problem was.

Why is it that all Mormons HAVE to think that when soemone leaves their church or doesn’t believe in it they must have been mired in sin?
paul barlow:

ps we are the true chruch of christ not a man made church as you say.

I realize you are conditioned to keep repeating your testimony so that you will believe it. I have come the realization that Christ church never left, He never abandoned the world and thus only the Catholic church was always here…right where he put it.
paul barlow:

by the way your covenants are still in force so do please remember what you commited to. when was the last time you went to the temple. when did you become inactive when did you start studying other churchs teaching.

No they are not. They were false and when I was baptized a christian the sins of mormonism were washed away. I last went to the temple a few years ago. I started studying religion in general to try and prove mormonism true to myself. during that process I studied many churches. I left when I realized the LDS church wasn’t true and went then to RCIA. I am going through RCIA again right now with my wife in the hope that she will become Catholic this easter. She has already realized the LDS church isn’t true, she just wants to be absolutely sure the Catholic church is and I respect that.

 

[paul_barlow]

majick275:

I asked questions of the Temple president to get information and was often told to go more often and the spirit would teach me.

Hey my parents spend a full day there every week. They love it. In the beginning I felt “weird” I was told that’s normal just go more often and I’ll start learning. Then I felt nothing. I though if I went enough (and when I was counseled to I became a veil worker) That I would eventually get something out of it that cause it all to make sense. It didn’t and I stopped going.

Things were going well. Work - good, kids- good, wife - good. No sins or wanting to go out and sin.

I didn’t want get exed for apostasy when I wasn’t sure, then I spoke to my bishop to say “I quit”. Look, I knew his thoughts, I was his second counselor. I did speak some close member friends. One has left the church, two are inactive now and the other is active but doesn’t beleive it’s true, he just doesn’t want to upset his family so he and his wife “fake it”.

There were times when I thought I did. Now that I have REALLY received the Holy Spirit I know better.

Why is it that all Mormons HAVE to think that when soemone leaves their church or doesn’t believe in it they must have been mired in sin?

I realize you are conditioned to keep repeating your testimony so that you will believe it. I have come the realization that Christ church never left, He never abandoned the world and thus only the Catholic church was always here…right where he put it.

No they are not. They were false and when I was baptized a christian the sins of mormonism were washed away. I last went to the temple a few years ago. I started studying religion in general to try and prove mormonism true to myself. during that process I studied many churches. I left when I realized the LDS church wasn’t true and went then to RCIA. I am going through RCIA again right now with my wife in the hope that she will become Catholic this easter. She has already realized the LDS church isn’t true, she just wants to be absolutely sure the Catholic church is and I respect that.

thank you for your response. sorry if i implyied you were sinning not intended. your last section i will disagree with but thats only what you would expect.
i feel totally diffrent when i go to the temple so this is maybe why i find your experiances difficult to relate to. as you know when you served on the bishopric a lot of problems the members have are in fact with themselves they do something or something happens and they then blame the church.
but to conditioning i have not been conditioned into thinking or believing what i do.
i don’t believe you speaking to your bishop about your doubts would have landed you in trouble. you may have had difficulty with the recomend interview but thats why its there.

 

[majick275]

fair enough but I saw an awful lot of little kids get up on fast sunday and bear their tetimony and the youth were also having testimony meetings in seminary, girls camp, scout camp, youth conference, etc. People were often asked to given their testimony in sunday school, priesthood, relief society and sacrament meeting. The missionaries do it a lot as well. I question many of these people saying they “know” when they don’t seem to know very much about the church that they testify to be true.

I thought mainly that the bishop (good man that he is) would be able to provide any insight. In the end I think I was right on that since all he did was give me his testimony when I left.

As far as the Temple goes, I know lots of LDS who love going tot he Temple. some feel very inspired there. I know others who feel nothing and some who won’t go anymore because they don’t like it.

I would note that the Temple has changed over the years to make by doing away with many of the things that people didn’t like.

 

[paul_barlow]

majick275:

fair enough but I saw an awful lot of little kids get up on fast sunday and bear their tetimony and the youth were also having testimony meetings in seminary, girls camp, scout camp, youth conference, etc. People were often asked to given their testimony in sunday school, priesthood, relief society and sacrament meeting. The missionaries do it a lot as well. I question many of these people saying they “know” when they don’t seem to know very much about the church that they testify to be true.

I thought mainly that the bishop (good man that he is) would be able to provide any insight. In the end I think I was right on that since all he did was give me his testimony when I left.

As far as the Temple goes, I know lots of LDS who love going tot he Temple. some feel very inspired there. I know others who feel nothing and some who won’t go anymore because they don’t like it.

I would note that the Temple has changed over the years to make by doing away with many of the things that people didn’t like.

your ward must be diffrent from mine. nobody is made to bare testomny. is our testomony any diffrent that witnessing of christ in the protastant church.
surly taking about christ for somebody who does not know very well will help them learn about him.
is this not why we get callings. to teach us something. I bet when you were a sunday school teacher you learnt more than if you had just been in the class. its the same with anything you or i do we need to practice our faith which helps build it. it’s a bit like the bike you learn to ride it you get good at riding it. then you stop for a while and try to get on it again at first you are unsteady untill your past skill comes back to you. i think thats why we bare our testomonies. could the same priciple not help your church members

 

[majick275]

paul barlow:

your ward must be diffrent from mine. nobody is made to bare testomny. is our testomony any diffrent that witnessing of christ in the protastant church.
surly taking about christ for somebody who does not know very well will help them learn about him.
is this not why we get callings. to teach us something. I bet when you were a sunday school teacher you learnt more than if you had just been in the class. its the same with anything you or i do we need to practice our faith which helps build it. it’s a bit like the bike you learn to ride it you get good at riding it. then you stop for a while and try to get on it again at first you are unsteady untill your past skill comes back to you. i think thats why we bare our testomonies. could the same priciple not help your church members

I didn’t say anyone was forced to bear testimonies but they are frequently asked. I don’t think it’s really THAT different from fundamentalist testimony meetings except that a lot of “testimonies” I have heard from LDS are specific to programs or “elements” of the church and all too often there are “thankimonies” directed at individuals… When I taught seminary and when I taught Gospel Doctrine I DID learn a lot more than I did sitting in class. I agree with your analogy on “practicing” your testimony. I still think it would be better if people said “I believe” or “I think” instead of “I know”.

The Catholic situation is a bit different. We recite the creed together so that we are stating what we universally believe in. There really isn’t an equivalent to the testimony meeting. I prefer it that way but I acknowledge that many folks really feel spiritually uplifted when sharing testimonies.

 

[jim1130]

majick275:

I didn’t say anyone was forced to bear testimonies but they are frequently asked. I don’t think it’s really THAT different from fundamentalist testimony meetings except that a lot of “testimonies” I have heard from LDS are specific to programs or “elements” of the church and all too often there are “thankimonies” directed at individuals… When I taught seminary and when I taught Gospel Doctrine I DID learn a lot more than I did sitting in class. I agree with your analogy on “practicing” your testimony. I still think it would be better if people said “I believe” or “I think” instead of “I know”.

The Catholic situation is a bit different. We recite the creed together so that we are stating what we universally believe in. There really isn’t an equivalent to the testimony meeting. I prefer it that way but I acknowledge that many folks really feel spiritually uplifted when sharing testimonies.

The one thing about “testimonies” that I have never enjoyed, and I speak only of the Fundamentalist, Baptist, Campus Crusade for Christ, etc. testimonies that I have heard, is that they are really rather self-serving, subjective, and individualistic. That has always turned me off. For one thing, everyone is different so I do not buy into the “If I can do it then you can do it” slogan since people are presupposing the same mind-think, influences, etc. that impacted them also impact others. Also, although I do not question the sincerity of the person speaking of the testimony, I do question how much is elaborated, exaggerated, and embellished for the story-telling technique. Lastly, I feel for those people who do not have testimonies because as they sit there some may wonder why God has not spoken directly to them, why God has circumvented His path to avoid engaging them, etc. I mean, when I have heard the Fundamentalist, Baptist, Campus Crusade for Christ, etc. speak, they talk of God answering them and/or answering their specific prayers (of which many of the prayers are not particularly noble), but what about those who feel God is not answering them and their prayers? It gets to a point where it seems that God plays favorites and picks and chooses whose prayers he answers and whose lives he intercedes, and if you are not a favorite or picked then you must not be worthy of his attention.

 

[majick275]

That may be due to the Calvinist influence of many in those groups. The thinking that only those who are called are saved and they want to show that they are called.

 

[jim1130]

majick275:

That may be due to the Calvinist influence of many in those groups. The thinking that only those who are called are saved and they want to show that they are called.

That makes sense. I guess there is the added pressure that when a personal public proclamation is made in the form of a testimony then the person must uphold the proclamation. Still, I choose the Creed since I say it weekly at Mass and whenever I pray the Rosary.