Z
zerinus
Guest
Because it talks about the dispensation of the fulness of times; and Joseph Smith was the cool guy that God chose to bring about that dispensation.
zerinus
- Status
zerinus
L
LAMBOFGODGIRLY
Guest
Could you be a little more specific about why you think that? Because I am not getting that from that chapter what so ever! Can I ask you a question that no Mormon has ever responded to?
Z
zerinus
Guest
L
LAMBOFGODGIRLY
Guest
I am asking you to be completely opened minded. If you were to read all of Matthew, and then you came to this passage, what would it mean to you? This is your salvation Zerinus. Tell me honestly, all defending aside, what it means. Your leaders will have to answer one day for misleading God’s people astray, but you can still choose to see the truth for what it is. I only care, and I know how easily it is for someone to be misled. I have been misled many times. It is up to you to find your way without the misleading guidance of your teachers. Ok sorry, here is the passage: (focus on verse 18) say a prayer for the Holy Spirit to enter into before you read it, so you will be able to get a truthful interpretation of it. This is something I am trying to teach myself to do before i even open the Bible. It clears everything up!
Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
L
LAMBOFGODGIRLY
Guest
This is the definition of netherworld
nether world
–noun 1. the infernal regions; hell.
2. the afterworld, or the hereafter.
nether world
–noun 1. the infernal regions; hell.
2. the afterworld, or the hereafter.
Z
zerinus
Guest
You know somthin, I don’t like the way ya hold your mouth when ya talk, so ya ain’t gona get much more answers from me.
zerinus
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Romans 16:7
Greet **Andronicus **and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.
Epaphroditus? (Philemon 2:25)
Silvanus and Timothy (1 Thess. 1:1 with 2:6).
That’s all I got…
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Is this thread about the Great Apostasy?
Questions for Mormons Concerning the Great Apostasy
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints claims to be the true, restored Church established by God after all other Christian churches had fallen into total apostasy. In a 1992 article for This Rock magazine, author Patrick Madrid provided a compelling argument that this Mormon claim is the lynchpin of LDS theology:
“The late Bruce McConkie, a Mormon apostle and, during his life, perhaps Mormonism’s leading theologian, explained the concept of the Great Apostasy this way: “This universal apostasy began in the days of the ancient apostles themselves; and it was known to and foretold by them. . . . With the loss of the Gospel, the nations of the earth went into a moral eclipse called the Dark Ages. Apostasy was universal. . . . [T]his darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored Gospel.”(Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966 ed.), 43-44.
“Mormonism’s claim to be the “restored” church hangs upon there having been a complete apostasy. The late James E. Talmadge, prolific Mormon writer and member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, wrote:
‘The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims the restoration of the Gospel, and re-establishment of the Church as of old, in this, the dispensation of the fullness of times. Such restoration and re-establishment, with the modern bestowal of the holy priesthood, would be unnecessary and indeed impossible had the Church of Christ continued among men with unbroken succession of priesthood and power, since the meridian of time [the time of Christ].
‘The restored Church affirms that a general apostasy developed during and after the apostolic period, and that the primitive Church lost its power, authority, and graces as a divine institution, and degenerated into an earthly organization only. The significance and importance of the great apostasy, as a condition precedent to the re-establishment of the Church in modern times, is obvious. If the alleged apostasy of the primitive Church was not a reality, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the divine institution its name proclaims’(James E. Talmadge, The Great Apostasy (Salt Lake City: Deseret Books, 1968 ed.), iii. For a discussion of apostolic succession see Warren H. Carroll, The Founding of Christendom and The Building of Christendom (Front Royal: Christendom College Press, 1985, 1987).) (emphasis added).
“TALMADGE is correct in evaluating the consequences, of course: if no apostasy, no restoration, and if no restoration, no Mormonism.”
The issue to be examined, therefore, is whether total apostasy of the Christian Church was possible. The following verses suggest that apostasy was not possible, and questions are submitted to our Mormon friends.
(cont.)
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Q: If Jesus promised to build his own church and that Church fell into total apostasy, does this mean that a) Jesus was a liar, b) Jesus did not have the power to protect his own church, or c) Jesus was incompetent as a church builder?
Matthew 28:20
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.
Q: If the Church fell into totally apostasy for nearly 1700 years, did Jesus remain with the Church “always”?
John 14:15-16
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—
Q: If the Church fell into apostasy, did Jesus not give the Counselor or did the Counselor simply fail to remain with the Church “forever”?
John 14:18
18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Q: If the Church fell into total apostasy, did Jesus actually leave us as “orphans” during all that time?
John 14:26
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Q: Despite this promise, did the Holy Spirit fail to teach the Church “all things” or to remind the Church of the things that Jesus had said to the Apostles?
John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
Q: Did the Holy Spirit fail to guide the Church into all truth?
Now, consider the following three verses:
1 John 4:4
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
1 Timothy 3:13
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
Mark 3:27
27In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house.
Q: Is Satan stronger than Jesus, is the Church the household of God, and can Satan rob the Church of the deposit of truth by “binding” Jesus in any way?
In light of the above, is it possible that the Church fell into total apostasy? Taken individually, each of these verses creates a problem for those that assert that the Church “went off the rails” at some point in history. Taken as a whole, they portray Christ’s own involvement in building, nurturing and protecting His Church until the end of time. The Catholic Church remains strong and vibrant – not by her own efforts or innate qualities – but because God Himself is leading and guiding her to ensure that “the gates of hell will not overcome it.”
Madrid also reported that “in a written exchange (*This Rock, *(July 1991), 18.), Mormon apologist Robert Starling, attempting to prove the divine origin of the Mormon Church, cited the Rabbi Gamaliel’s prediction regarding the New Testament Church: "f this endeavor or this activity is of human origin, it will destroy itself. But if it comes from God, you will not be able to destroy them; you may even find yourselves fighting against God" (Acts 5:38-39). Starling unwittingly undercut his own claim of a great apostasy. Gamaliel was right. The Church Jesus built could not be destroyed.”
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Q: If Jesus promised to build his own church and that Church fell into total apostasy, does this mean that a) Jesus was a liar, b) Jesus did not have the power to protect his own church, or c) Jesus was incompetent as a church builder?
Matthew 28:20
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.
Q: If the Church fell into totally apostasy for nearly 1700 years, did Jesus remain with the Church “always”?
John 14:15-16
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—
Q: If the Church fell into apostasy, did Jesus not give the Counselor or did the Counselor simply fail to remain with the Church “forever”?
John 14:18
18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Q: If the Church fell into total apostasy, did Jesus actually leave us as “orphans” during all that time?
John 14:26
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Q: Despite this promise, did the Holy Spirit fail to teach the Church “all things” or to remind the Church of the things that Jesus had said to the Apostles?
John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
Q: Did the Holy Spirit fail to guide the Church into all truth?
Now, consider the following three verses:
1 John 4:4
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
1 Timothy 3:13
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
Mark 3:27
27In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house.
Q: Is Satan stronger than Jesus, is the Church the household of God, and can Satan rob the Church of the deposit of truth by “binding” Jesus in any way?
In light of the above, is it possible that the Church fell into total apostasy? Taken individually, each of these verses creates a problem for those that assert that the Church “went off the rails” at some point in history. Taken as a whole, they portray Christ’s own involvement in building, nurturing and protecting His Church until the end of time. The Catholic Church remains strong and vibrant – not by her own efforts or innate qualities – but because God Himself is leading and guiding her to ensure that “the gates of hell will not overcome it.”
Madrid also reported that “in a written exchange (*This Rock, *(July 1991), 18.), Mormon apologist Robert Starling, attempting to prove the divine origin of the Mormon Church, cited the Rabbi Gamaliel’s prediction regarding the New Testament Church: "f this endeavor or this activity is of human origin, it will destroy itself. But if it comes from God, you will not be able to destroy them; you may even find yourselves fighting against God" (Acts 5:38-39). Starling unwittingly undercut his own claim of a great apostasy. Gamaliel was right. The Church Jesus built could not be destroyed.”
M
mfbukowski
Guest
I was mistaken. Even I do that occasionally!
Just shows I should check before posting. But remember I did ASK? I wasn’t sure if I remembered it right. So have your fun.
M
mfbukowski
Guest
Oh come on. I made a mistake and it was clear from the question I wasn’t sure.
T
truthsilence
Guest
Nah. Fun, (joyous, actually) would be seeing you return to the fold.I was mistaken. Even I do that occasionally!
Peace,
Tami
T
truthsilence
Guest
Tell that to Christ. Sheesh, Z. Read it.
T
truthsilence
Guest
I agree.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
It is what you have been taught. It does not surprise me if you believe what your church teaches.I was mistaken. Even I do that occasionally!
I am curious how you reconcile what Genesis says occurred with what Joseph Smith says occurred in section 132 of the D&C.
J
JRKH
Guest
As much as I have been enjoying this thread it appears that it may be going the way of so many others - With less emphasis on discussing actual beliefs and more on disupting without references.
I have gained much valuable information here however and woudl like to briefly list some conclusions.
Both Christianity (in this case Catholic) and Mormonism rely first and formost on Faith. In this there is little that can be “reasoned through”. Faith is faith and that’s it.
Much has been said already on various thread and articles about the so called “Apostacy” so I have little to say about that here except that until someone can show me clear evidence of such an Apostacy, and no mormon I have talked to has been able to, I must assume it did not occur.
To Specific Points discussed here.
The Mormon position on the “Keys” is, to me, a clear misreading of the passage in Matthew and really boils down to just another interpretation that, like the protestant interpretations, seeks to remove the Authority of the Church from Christ’s rightful Stewards.
Furthermore Jesus’ promise that The Gates of Hell would not prevail as well as His promise to Send the Holy Spirit and to not leave us orphans are clear evidences that He fully intended His Church to endure and not fail or become “Apostate”
The Mormon Position that the “Office” of “Apostle” was intended to continue is not borne out in either the New Testament or in Any of the Early Church Fathers - Some of whom were contemporaries of the Apostles. Surely if this office to continue there would be evidences of concern as Apostles were dying and not being replaced. The Biblical references to others as Apostles is simply because of what the term means - One who is sent.
Jesus Himself never made such a statement regarding an “Office of Apostle”. Or that this “offcie” should continue. He left the details setting up of the Church on earth to those whom He entrusted with the Authority to Bind and Loose. What Jesus did do was tell them to go and make disciples of All Nations. It is the Holy Spirit that has been Guiding the Church through the legitimate successors of the Apostles.
Finally the mere fact that Joseph Smith was supposedly “ordained” an “Apostle” in the same manner that the original “Apostles” ordained their original successors (Laying on of Hands and invoking the Holy Spirit) flies in the face of the very authority Christ Gave His Apostles AND the protection and Guidance He Promised His Church. We can discuss terminology and definitions all day but the fact will remain that when Peter ordained a Bishop, he intended that Bishop to have the same priesthood authority that he himself had.
Thus was it bound on Earth, and Thus it is bound in heaven.
The Mormon position on the Holy bible is that it is the word of God in so far as it is translated correctly. Yet by their own timeline the canon of the Bible was put together by an Apostate Church without priesthood authority for at least 200 years.
Now if the church was Apostate, it is obvious that any book/volume assembled by them would be Apostate. On the other hand if the Bible canon is accurate, then it must be assumed that the Holy Spirit was at work within the Church to at least 400 AD and the Apostacy Timeline is wrong.
Finally, if the Bible contains errors, even just tranlation errors, how can it be considered a realiable book for evangelization?
Although not necessarily a major factor in my thinking, the idea of the “eternal marriage” is also a stumbling block. How the LDS Church can accept such a teaching when God Himself, in the person of Jesus Christ, declares it to be not so is beyond belief. Those who go to heaven are in a state of pure Love and Adoration of the Most High God. All of our Earthly ties will both broken and at the same time forged more closely and profoundly together in this bond of Holy Love. Marriage, family, country, all that is of earth will pass away.
Now - While this has not been discussed on this thread to my knowledge, I must address the issue of the BOM. The Premise is that Jews from the 10 lost tribes resided in the new world and Jesus came to them and established a church here which didn’t fare much better than the one in the Old world (by momron understanding)
So far as I know there is no credible Archiological, Genetic, or Linguistic evidence showing a link between the Jewish Peoples and the American Natives.
These then are the conclusions I must draw based upon the testimonies given here by our Mormon Friends. There are other matters that could be discussed but so far none of the answers I have received to my questions have caused me to question my faith, or to increase my interest the Mormon Church.
Therefore I must conclude that Mr Smith is not a true Prophet of God based upon the actual beliefs of the LDS Church, my own reason and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, as well as historical and tangible evidences of the modern sciences.
Peace
James
I have gained much valuable information here however and woudl like to briefly list some conclusions.
Both Christianity (in this case Catholic) and Mormonism rely first and formost on Faith. In this there is little that can be “reasoned through”. Faith is faith and that’s it.
Much has been said already on various thread and articles about the so called “Apostacy” so I have little to say about that here except that until someone can show me clear evidence of such an Apostacy, and no mormon I have talked to has been able to, I must assume it did not occur.
To Specific Points discussed here.
The Mormon position on the “Keys” is, to me, a clear misreading of the passage in Matthew and really boils down to just another interpretation that, like the protestant interpretations, seeks to remove the Authority of the Church from Christ’s rightful Stewards.
Furthermore Jesus’ promise that The Gates of Hell would not prevail as well as His promise to Send the Holy Spirit and to not leave us orphans are clear evidences that He fully intended His Church to endure and not fail or become “Apostate”
The Mormon Position that the “Office” of “Apostle” was intended to continue is not borne out in either the New Testament or in Any of the Early Church Fathers - Some of whom were contemporaries of the Apostles. Surely if this office to continue there would be evidences of concern as Apostles were dying and not being replaced. The Biblical references to others as Apostles is simply because of what the term means - One who is sent.
Jesus Himself never made such a statement regarding an “Office of Apostle”. Or that this “offcie” should continue. He left the details setting up of the Church on earth to those whom He entrusted with the Authority to Bind and Loose. What Jesus did do was tell them to go and make disciples of All Nations. It is the Holy Spirit that has been Guiding the Church through the legitimate successors of the Apostles.
Finally the mere fact that Joseph Smith was supposedly “ordained” an “Apostle” in the same manner that the original “Apostles” ordained their original successors (Laying on of Hands and invoking the Holy Spirit) flies in the face of the very authority Christ Gave His Apostles AND the protection and Guidance He Promised His Church. We can discuss terminology and definitions all day but the fact will remain that when Peter ordained a Bishop, he intended that Bishop to have the same priesthood authority that he himself had.
Thus was it bound on Earth, and Thus it is bound in heaven.
The Mormon position on the Holy bible is that it is the word of God in so far as it is translated correctly. Yet by their own timeline the canon of the Bible was put together by an Apostate Church without priesthood authority for at least 200 years.
Now if the church was Apostate, it is obvious that any book/volume assembled by them would be Apostate. On the other hand if the Bible canon is accurate, then it must be assumed that the Holy Spirit was at work within the Church to at least 400 AD and the Apostacy Timeline is wrong.
Finally, if the Bible contains errors, even just tranlation errors, how can it be considered a realiable book for evangelization?
Although not necessarily a major factor in my thinking, the idea of the “eternal marriage” is also a stumbling block. How the LDS Church can accept such a teaching when God Himself, in the person of Jesus Christ, declares it to be not so is beyond belief. Those who go to heaven are in a state of pure Love and Adoration of the Most High God. All of our Earthly ties will both broken and at the same time forged more closely and profoundly together in this bond of Holy Love. Marriage, family, country, all that is of earth will pass away.
Now - While this has not been discussed on this thread to my knowledge, I must address the issue of the BOM. The Premise is that Jews from the 10 lost tribes resided in the new world and Jesus came to them and established a church here which didn’t fare much better than the one in the Old world (by momron understanding)
So far as I know there is no credible Archiological, Genetic, or Linguistic evidence showing a link between the Jewish Peoples and the American Natives.
These then are the conclusions I must draw based upon the testimonies given here by our Mormon Friends. There are other matters that could be discussed but so far none of the answers I have received to my questions have caused me to question my faith, or to increase my interest the Mormon Church.
Therefore I must conclude that Mr Smith is not a true Prophet of God based upon the actual beliefs of the LDS Church, my own reason and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, as well as historical and tangible evidences of the modern sciences.
Peace
James
To any group that came after the real church established by Christ! That of course would include Morman’s.**
M
mfbukowski
Guest
M
mfbukowski
Guest
I am glad that you learned so much in this thread, that you finished with the exact same assumptions you started with.
Incidentally the Book of Mormon is about what- 20 or so people- who were of a single tribe who came from Jerusalem. It also includes an account of a group slightly larger who came from th emid east much earlier. It does not say that the “ten tribes of Israel” were here or anything like that. It also does not say that those we now call Native Americans were descendents of either or both of these groups.
R
Realcatholicgk
Guest
When did you ever see a gate get up from it’s foundations and overcome anything?
There are many interpretations for any scripture, you just need to open your eyes.
**Hi Mfbuk,
In the real church the interpretations are not left up to individual interpretation, Why, if that happened in less than 500 years we would have had over 61,000 groups rather that the one holy catholic church that is currently 2,000 years old. Jesus knew better He sent the Holy Spirit to guide and instruct Christ’s real church throughout the ages.
Oh, did you know that Protestant groups are currently over 61,000groups in only 500 years or less? There are 21 more made a week throughout the world!
Just what we need more false believers!Too bad that Jesus is only the head of only the real church which he established ! Read Gal 1: 8-12
1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (1:8-9)
“If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”
If anyone dares to disagree with Paul on religious matters, “let him be accursed.”
1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. “If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.”
Should we try to please everyone?
1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. **
I have written hundreds of posts on this subject and if you want my answer, look it up. In fact, a whole thread on the gates of hell prophecy.
**False preachers are false preachers no matter how much they would wish to be followers of Christ! And noone can prevail against Christ’s Real church! 2,000 years and still strong!
God Bless**
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