Mormon - Beliefs - A civil Discussion Please

[truthsilence]

I am glad that you learned so much in this thread, that you finished with the exact same assumptions you started with.

Incidentally the Book of Mormon is about what- 20 or so people- who were of a single tribe who came from Jerusalem. It also includes an account of a group slightly larger who came from th emid east much earlier. It does not say that the “ten tribes of Israel” were here or anything like that. It also does not say that those we now call Native Americans were descendents of either or both of these groups.

Huh? You are correct, it doesn’t say that the “ten tribes of Israel” were here. But I pulled out my copy and it does say:

The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.

embolden mine.

How do you figure that “it does not say that those we now call Native Americans were descendants of either or both of these groups”? Also, the book itself claims to tell the story of more than a few people, or slightly larger than twenty! Its suppose to be about two great civilizations who eventually separated into two nations.

Drinking this evening mf?

 

[RebeccaJ]

D&C 54

7 Wherefore, go to now and flee the land, lest your enemies come upon you; and take your journey, and appoint whom you will to be your leader, and to pay moneys for you. 8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

D&C 32

1 And now concerning my servant Parley P. Pratt, behold, I say unto him that as I live I will that he shall declare my gospel and learn of me, and be meek and lowly of heart.
2 And that which I have appointed unto him is that he shall ago with my servants, Oliver Cowdery and Peter Whitmer, Jun., into the wilderness among the Lamanites.

Who are these Lamanites and where is their border?

 

[mfbukowski]

Huh? You are correct, it doesn’t say that the “ten tribes of Israel” were here. But I pulled out my copy and it does say:

embolden mine.

How do you figure that “it does not say that those we now call Native Americans were descendants of either or both of these groups”? Also, the book itself claims to tell the story of more than a few people, or slightly larger than twenty! Its suppose to be about two great civilizations who eventually separated into two nations.

Drinking this evening mf?

Uh, I don’t drink, so maybe that’s a little projection there. Since you are confused and all.

That quote is a commentary on the Book of Mormon, not part of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon does not say that they were the principle ancestors.

 

[mfbukowski]

D&C 54

D&C 32

Who are these Lamanites and where is their border?

The Lamanites are a portion of the people mentioned in the Book of Mormon. What is your point? We are talking about the principle ANCESTORS of the Lamanites and who they were. The principle ancestors of the Lamanites, I suppose by modern scientific evidence, were those who came across the land bridge from Asia. But we don’t really know that. There is an interesting thread right now on MADB about Hebrew Dna found among some Indians in South America, But that proves nothing either way.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**

hi Folks,

I am trying to understand, I have a question to a Mormon ~ Is it true that the Mormon doctrine teaches that that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are actually three separate gods? or is that just a lie someone made up? If it is true how can you explain Alma 11:28-31: “Now Zeezrom said: ‘Is there more than one God?’ and [Amulek] answered, ‘No.’ And Zeezrom said unto him again, ‘How knowest thou these things?’ And he said: ‘An angel hath made them known unto me.’”

Thanks

God(s)? Bless**

 

[mfbukowski]

**

hi Folks,

I am trying to understand, I have a question to a Mormon ~ Is it true that the Mormon doctrine teaches that that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are actually three separate gods? or is that just a lie someone made up? If it is true how can you explain Alma 11:28-31: “Now Zeezrom said: ‘Is there more than one God?’ and [Amulek] answered, ‘No.’ And Zeezrom said unto him again, ‘How knowest thou these things?’ And he said: ‘An angel hath made them known unto me.’”

Thanks

God(s)? Bless**

Good for you! You have been reading. Yes, one God is made of three separate persons. That is what we believe, and you have it right there in black and white. It says it many places in the Book of Mormon. That is a big misconception that we are polytheists. Nobody seems to get this.

Muslims would say that Catholics are polytheists for believing in the trinity.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The Lamanites are a portion of the people mentioned in the Book of Mormon. What is your point? We are talking about the principle ANCESTORS of the Lamanites and who they were. The principle ancestors of the Lamanites, I suppose by modern scientific evidence, were those who came across the land bridge from Asia. But we don’t really know that. There is an interesting thread right now on MADB about Hebrew Dna found among some Indians in South America, But that proves nothing either way.

D&C writings by Smith are written as though God is speaking. God in these verses is telling people to go to the Lamanites and/or near to their borders.

Are these then the principle ancestors of the Lamanites?

What in the world are you talking about land bridge? Where in Mormon scripture or teachings did the Lamanites walk across a land bridge?

 

[PaulDupre]

Huh? You are correct, it doesn’t say that the “ten tribes of Israel” were here. But I pulled out my copy and it does say:

embolden mine.

How do you figure that “it does not say that those we now call Native Americans were descendants of either or both of these groups”? Also, the book itself claims to tell the story of more than a few people, or slightly larger than twenty! Its suppose to be about two great civilizations who eventually separated into two nations.

Drinking this evening mf?

Apparently Bukowski has never read the BOM. The Nephite nation was large enough that they could lose 230,000 soldiers in one battle (see Mormon 6).

 

[RebeccaJ]

Uh, I don’t drink, so maybe that’s a little projection there. Since you are confused and all.

That quote is a commentary on the Book of Mormon, not part of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon does not say that they were the principle ancestors.

Still sticking with the BoM is about 20 or so people?

 

[mfbukowski]

D&C writings by Smith are written as though God is speaking. God in these verses is telling people to go to the Lamanites and/or near to their borders.

Are these then the principle ancestors of the Lamanites?

What in the world are you talking about land bridge? Where in Mormon scripture or teachings did the Lamanites walk across a land bridge?

Of the 20 or so people (I have never counted how many) who came over with the Nephites, some were the descendents of Laman and were called the Lamanites. These people eventually intermarried, within a generation or two, with the thousands and thousands of native Americans who came from wherever the bulk of the native Americans came from-- I guess they say now that the native Americans came across the Bering Straits when they were frozen over. Nepites DNA would be a drop in the ocean.

As you know, when Mormons talk about “Lamanites” they are talking usually about the American Indians. So the borders of the Lamanites would be the borders of the Indians. You know this perfectly well of course.

So Lamanites did not walk across the land bridge and it is not found in the BOM. But virtually all the ancestors of those the Mormons call “Lamanites” did probably come across that land bridge.

It is as if we identified the Pilgrims that came on the Mayflower with the term “Americans”. The pilgrims can be, let us suppose be called the first “Americans” But only very few Americans actually trace their ancestors to the Mayflower. And if you tested for “Mayflower DNA” among Americans, you would find perhaps none.Yet they were the first Americans, and we are all americans.

Similar to the Lamanites.

 

[mfbukowski]

Still sticking with the BoM is about 20 or so people?

Is America about the descendents of the Mayflower? You know what I am saying perfectly. Of course the BOM is not about 20 people.

 

[Like]

You know, no matter where I have ever lived in my 69 years, have I ever had a Mormon (and/or JW) come knocking on my door that didn’t say, “Yeah! I was a Catholic once!”

Yeah! Like that’s going to convince me they found the true religion.

Question: Why are they always in pairs?

 

[zerinus]

Tell that to Christ. Sheesh, Z. Read it.

I don’t need to. He already knows. He sent him.

zerinus

 

[RebeccaJ]

Is America about the descendents of the Mayflower? You know what I am saying perfectly. Of course the BOM is not about 20 people.

Actually, no, I don’t. You just tried to pffft DNA evidence out of the way by claiming there were only 20 people. I’m not really sure of why you said this. In the context of DNA, DNA who’s got the DNA you have a very large group of people in the BoM who are descended from Laman, who was the son of Lehi, who is described as being of Jewish descent. Laman was married to Sariah, who is also of Jewish descent.

The D&C verses I posted (and there are more about Lamanites), clearly indicate these descendents were right there and that Mormons were sent by God to teach them. Or to remove to land that is on their border. I am sure you remember your US history and know that at the time of JS, the Missouri state line was the boundry to Indian lands.

The tribes known to have lived in these lands are the Caddo, Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Delaware, Illinois, Kickapoo, Osage, Ote-Missouria, Sauk-Fox, Shawnee and Tunica. If these people are the descendants of the Lamanites, their DNA should show Hebrew ancestry. I am sure you aware, they don’t.

 

[JRKH]

I am glad that you learned so much in this thread, that you finished with the exact same assumptions you started with.

Well at least I asked the questions and got some good answers. The fact that the answers were unconvincing does not change the fact that I DID recieve much good information and I thank the Mormons who posted such informative responses.

Incidentally the Book of Mormon is about what- 20 or so people- who were of a single tribe who came from Jerusalem. It also includes an account of a group slightly larger who came from th emid east much earlier. It does not say that the “ten tribes of Israel” were here or anything like that. It also does not say that those we now call Native Americans were descendents of either or both of these groups.

I will readily admit that I have not really looked into this aspect so I may well be mis-informed. Be that as it may there is certaiinly enough unsatisfactory answers within the Mormon teachings to prevent me from leaving Christ’s own, original, and Still going Strong, Church.

No Apoatacy = No Restoration

Peace
James

 

[truthsilence]

Uh, I don’t drink, so maybe that’s a little projection there. Since you are confused and all.

That quote is a commentary on the Book of Mormon, not part of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon does not say that they were the principle ancestors.

Sorry about the drinking statement. I was joking. Probably not funny.

So now the introduction right inside of the Book of Mormon doesn’t ‘count’ either? I’ve probably read that page a hundred times. What’s next to go? Hopefully the Book of Abraham.

I’m curious who wrote that introduction, and why it is no longer deemed inspired.

 

[Jerusha]

The tribes known to have lived in these lands are the Caddo, Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Delaware, Illinois, Kickapoo, Osage, Ote-Missouria, Sauk-Fox, Shawnee and Tunica. If these people are the descendants of the Lamanites, their DNA should show Hebrew ancestry. I am sure you aware, they don’t.

What is more, they say it didn’t happen.

However, something else DID happen, and vestiges of THAT story can be seen in the BOM.

Sauk and Fox didn’t come from that area originally. They came from along the St. Lawrence river. They fled west, and ended up in N. Illinois and S Wisconsin after 1700.

 

[truthsilence]

I don’t need to. He already knows. He sent him.

zerinus

Zerinus,

I have a sincere suggestion. Open that chapter of Ephesians, read it, and ask God to enlighten your mind about who and what that chapter is talking about. Hey, I’ll do the same. I’ll report back if you will.

 

[RebeccaJ]

What is more, they say it didn’t happen.

However, something else DID happen, and vestiges of THAT story can be seen in the BOM.

Sauk and Fox didn’t come from that area originally. They came from along the St. Lawrence river. They fled west, and ended up in N. Illinois and S Wisconsin after 1700.

Hi Jerusha, I am glad you clarified this as I know you are more knowledgeable in this area than I.

 

[mfbukowski]

Apparently Bukowski has never read the BOM. The Nephite nation was large enough that they could lose 230,000 soldiers in one battle (see Mormon 6).

Oh my gosh how dense can you be?

And how big is the American nation? Are all Americans descended from the Mayflower occupants? The Nephite nation as you put it, did not all have common ancestors. There might not have been ONE who was an actual descendent of Nephi.

At the time of Cortez, what is now known as Mexico city was the largest city in the WORLD. And you think all those people and more were descended from one person? Now that is weird. I have been a member of the church 30 years and have never believed that. It doesn’t make sense.