Mormon - Beliefs - A civil Discussion Please

[MEgus]

Hi MEgus, perhaps you are under the belief that Catholics believe the scriptures found Genesis are to be taken literally.

As has already been stated, the word of God is related using literary devices. The book of Genesis comes from an oral tradition, which existed long before it was ever written down. The word of God was passed down, by telling stories.

There are great truths to be found in the book of Genesis, but I think if you studied with a Catholic biblical expert, you would find that Abraham is the point where you can begin to see a relating of historical events.

Rebecca,

Can you show me where the Catholic Church teaches that Genesis is NOT the word of God. I have looked and can not find it.

Maybe I’m missing something.

I can understand why they would do that though, as it clearly teaches a different gospel than the one you teach, but I just can’t find where they say that.

MEgus

 

[truthsilence]

catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp

(This is for mfbukowski re: binding and loosing)

 

[MEgus]

OK, how many of you actually read what I wrote about Genesis one?

You know, this is NOT about some LDS interpretation of scripture, it’s about the very first scripture given to man by God that has been written down and preserved for our day. This was given to us by Moses.

Now, you might want to discount many things here, but if you fail to search the scriptures as Christ taught, you will fail to grasp the truth.

And remember, when Christ instructed us to search the scriptures, there was no New Testament. Only the Old. Christ did not tell us that it was a bunch of fairy tails, he told us to search it. Gain an understanding of it and then, if you do, you will know not only of Christ, but of his nature and his Fathers nature. If you do not, you can never know.

So I ask again, did any of you actually read what I wrote?

MEgus

 

[truthsilence]

Rebecca,

Can you show me where the Catholic Church teaches that Genesis is NOT the word of God. I have looked and can not find it.

Maybe I’m missing something.

I can understand why they would do that though, as it clearly teaches a different gospel than the one you teach, but I just can’t find where they say that.

MEgus

Respectfully, MEgus, I think what you missed was the entire point of Rebecca’s post.

 

[truthsilence]

OK, how many of you actually read what I wrote about Genesis one?

You know, this is NOT about some LDS interpretation of scripture, it’s about the very first scripture given to man by God that has been written down and preserved for our day. This was given to us by Moses.

Now, you might want to discount many things here, but if you fail to search the scriptures as Christ taught, you will fail to grasp the truth.

And remember, when Christ instructed us to search the scriptures, there was no New Testament. Only the Old. Christ did not tell us that it was a bunch of fairy tails, he told us to search it. Gain an understanding of it and then, if you do, you will know not only of Christ, but of his nature and his Fathers nature. If you do not, you can never know.

So I ask again, did any of you actually read what I wrote?

MEgus

I read through what you wrote. You need to understand, we believe in One God in Three Persons. So Genesis does not pose a problem, even when it refers to “us” and “our”. What we do not believe in, is a plurality of Gods, which is what LDS proposes and what you seem to be wanting to pursue here.

 

[web2009]

I read through what you wrote. You need to understand, we believe in One God in Three Persons. So Genesis does not pose a problem, even when it refers to “us” and “our”. What we do not believe in, is a plurality of Gods, which is what LDS proposes and what you seem to be wanting to pursue here.

truthsilence, I want to ask you something in all sincerity and in a spirit of learning and wanting to understand the Trinity principal.

How do you explain the voice from heaven, the Holy Ghost in the form of a dove AND Jesus Christ being baptised all at the same time? This kinda supports the mormon belief of 3 distinct beings…

 

[mfbukowski]

I watched the video, and noted several big holes in Dr. Woodward’s story as it relates to LDS beliefs:

The video: claims that there were a million Asians in the Americas when Lehi arrived there.

The BOM: claims that the Americas had been “kept from the knowledge of other nations” prior to Lehi’s arrival (the Jaredites were extinct and the Mulekites were Jews, and there was only one of them left when Lehi arrived). The BOM goes on to say that had the Americas not been kept from the knowledge of other nations, the Lamanites would have had no place for their inheritance.

---

The video: claims that the Native Americans of today are not descended from Lamanites, but rather from these mysterious “Asians”.

Joseph Smith: taught and reported revelations that the Amerindians are indeed Lamanites, and names them as such in the D&C (see D&C 19:27, 28:9 and 54:8, among many others). Joseph even reported revelations that the LDS men were to take plural wives from among the Lamanites. How could this be possible if the Amerindians of his day were not descended from Laman and Lemuel?

---

The video: claims that 95% of the Native Americans were wiped out after the Europeans came in 1492, so their DNA could not be tested.

Fact: The 95% number seems very high, but even if - The DNA studies have been done not only on living Amerindians, but also of the remains of many Amerindians who died all over the Americas prior to 1492. No Hebrew DNA was found in them, either. Surely Dr. Woodward knew this.

---

This is the worst kind of sloppy LDS scholarship. The LDS are just stalling for time. Eventually they will have to abandon belief in the historicity of the BOM. If they don’t they will lose the vast majority of the next generation of members.

The truth is that the Amerindians prior to 1492 were descended exclusively from Mongolians. There were no Lehites, Nephites, Lamanites or any other BOM peoples, because the BOM is a 19th century work of fiction.

A religion founded on a fraud cannot last.

You are distorting our postion knowing full well what you are doing. You seem to not even understand the point being made.

You have also misquoted the text - it speaks of “this land” not “the Americas” – local vs global distinction.

The DNA of a dozen people among a population of millions would only show 2,600 years later if you found the right couple of individuals who MIGHT still have some. Lines of direct descendents die out all the time. That is why so many of us are descended from so few a few thousand years ago. How many here have relatives who have no descendents? An aunt who never married who might be the last of the “Jones line” etc? Happens all the time. We are starting with a population of a dozen or so, and asking that all the Native Americans in the universe are literal descendents of these 12? Impossible!

All of LIVING humanity is descended from one female- that is provable. Why is that? Does this prove that the bible is right? Geneticists would laugh at that. All it proves to them is that all the other lines of our ancestors have died out.

Do you really believe that all Jews today are literal direct descendents of the person Judah, one of the sons of the person named Israel? And yet they are Jews and have a God given “land of inheritance”.

The kind of thinking you are proposing here is the worst kind of scriptural literalism combined with no theological understanding whatsoever. You do not have to be a direct descendent of Judah to be Jewish, nor do you have to be a direct descendent of Laman to be a Lamanite. And both peoples have their “land of inheritance”. If you persist in this, I will take your aguments apart bit by bit, but for now it is a waste of time. You can see where this will go. You are not stupid.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Hi James,
In the LDS a marriage can be either civil or in the temple. A civil marriage only lasts until death do they part. A temple marriage is for time and eternity. A woman can only be sealed to one man in the temple. If this was for example, the case with her first husband, the other 6 would only be civil marriages, and she would hence spend eternity with the 1st.

On the other hand, if a man marries, and his wife passes on, he can get married to another in the temple. So it will be that as many women he marries in the temple, thats how many wives he will have in the eternities.

This was a doctrine that I silently accepted as a mormon woman, but battled within, until I finally left the church 5 years ago. I am now divorced. If I decided to stay in the mormon church, I would not be able to marry in the temple again, but my ex-husband would. The only way I would be granted a temple divorce, is if the prophet himself authorised it.

Being granted a temple divorce is a tricky affair - interviews with the priesthood, who then forward the information to the prophet, if they see fit. Likewise, having your name removed from the records is also an ordeal, involving the completion of documents and a series of interviews, where they will try and to convince you otherwise.

I have chosen at this stage, not to do either. Why not? Because my ex husband who was the bishops protoge was abusing us, and I asked for help, but the bishop refused to believe that he was capable of these things. It is him that I need to go see for my first series of interviews. This coming from a man who receives revelation directly from God for his fold. It was devastating to me to say the least, and they believed me only once evidence had been documented officially. But it was too little to late, and just another in a series of confirmations that this church was not what it claims to be.

Hey Web, my husband is Mormon and he said that his church doesn’t believe in polygamy. He said that when people started practicing polygamy, that the church leaders kicked them out. Is this true?

 

[web2009]

LAMBOFGODGIRLY;4820 244:

Hey Web, my husband is Mormon and he said that his church doesn’t believe in polygamy. He said that when people started practicing polygamy, that the church leaders kicked them out. Is this true?

They did practice polygamy when JS was the prophet. They stopped it at a later stage, not sure when. They do not allow it anymore.

 

[mfbukowski]

That is only your personal opinion. Your church teaches that God was once a man like us.

I’m glad you don’t agree with the LDS church on this, but please don’t pretend that your church doesn’t teach it.

That is dishonest.

I have posted the official LDS position that only that which is found in the standard works is doctrinal.

That God was once a man is not found in the standard works, therefore it is not doctrinal. Period. I have already said it is like Limbo in that Catholics have taught Limbo. You repeat the same things again and again, and ignore the answers. It is tiresome.

 

[mfbukowski]

Sin.

A little too cryptic I think

 

[mfbukowski]

catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp

(This is for mfbukowski re: binding and loosing)

Well I disagree that anyone can “loose” sin, but God, but you still haven’t answered what you “bind”? But thanks for the response!

 

[mfbukowski]

OK, how many of you actually read what I wrote about Genesis one?

You know, this is NOT about some LDS interpretation of scripture, it’s about the very first scripture given to man by God that has been written down and preserved for our day. This was given to us by Moses.

Now, you might want to discount many things here, but if you fail to search the scriptures as Christ taught, you will fail to grasp the truth.

And remember, when Christ instructed us to search the scriptures, there was no New Testament. Only the Old. Christ did not tell us that it was a bunch of fairy tails, he told us to search it. Gain an understanding of it and then, if you do, you will know not only of Christ, but of his nature and his Fathers nature. If you do not, you can never know.

So I ask again, did any of you actually read what I wrote?

MEgus

Me! Me!.. Oh I guess I don’t count – but good stuff dude! The Jews still debate what all that means

 

[The_Smiter]

They did practice polygamy when JS was the prophet. They stopped it at a later stage, not sure when. They do not allow it anymore.

It was stopped in order to have Utah admitted into the United States as a state.

And although I am not a proponent of polygamy, it alwasy amazes me how government will oppose people of faith whenever they can. Why is it that any single male can impregnate any number of women he desires without getting married and the government will simply support the children without hesitation. Yet, when FLDS want to practice what they believe (if it is, of course moral and within the confines of age of consent laws - and welfare fraud is not being committed) they are castigated and met with incarceration.

I guess the government prefers “baby daddies” instead of fathers.

My sentiments are by way of comparison and in no way supportive of polygamy. But it does give one something to ponder.

 

[mfbukowski]

I read through what you wrote. You need to understand, we believe in One God in Three Persons. So Genesis does not pose a problem, even when it refers to “us” and “our”. What we do not believe in, is a plurality of Gods, .

I stopped there because I wanted to say “I believe that too”… And I do!

That’s what the BOM says - One God, three persons.

 

[PaulDupre]

I stopped there because I wanted to say “I believe that too”… And I do!

That’s what the BOM says - One God, three persons.

I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years.

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it!

• Joseph Smith’s Sermon on Plurality of Gods
  (as printed in History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473-479)

So, since Joseph Smith taught a plurality of gods, do you consider him a fallen prophet?

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

They did practice polygamy when JS was the prophet. They stopped it at a later stage, not sure when. They do not allow it anymore.

He said Joseph didn’t practice it. He said I was reading anti-Mormon websites. Of course he says that anytime I ask a question about his religion. Thanks for hearing me though!

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

It was stopped in order to have Utah admitted into the United States as a state.

And although I am not a proponent of polygamy, it alwasy amazes me how government will oppose people of faith whenever they can. Why is it that any single male can impregnate any number of women he desires without getting married and the government will simply support the children without hesitation. Yet, when FLDS want to practice what they believe (if it is, of course moral and within the confines of age of consent laws - and welfare fraud is not being committed) they are castigated and met with incarceration.

I guess the government prefers “baby daddies” instead of fathers.

My sentiments are by way of comparison and in no way supportive of polygamy. But it does give one something to ponder.

Why did all the Mormons end up in Utah?

 

[PaulDupre]

He said Joseph didn’t practice it. He said I was reading anti-Mormon websites. Of course he says that anytime I ask a question about his religion. Thanks for hearing me though!

Apparently your husband, like so many young LDS, knows little about his religion. Have your husband read this review from FARMS (a Mormon research and apologetics group associated with BYU) on the book “In Sacred Loneliness - the Plural Wives of Joseph Smith”. The review of the book is very favorable. The LDS Church does not try to deny that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy (it is detailed in the History of the Church). Why should your husband deny it?

Has he ever read D&C 132?

Paul

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Apparently your husband, like so many young LDS, knows little about his religion. Have your husband read this review from FARMS (a Mormon research and apologetics group associated with BYU) on the book “In Sacred Loneliness - the Plural Wives of Joseph Smith”. The review of the book is very favorable. The LDS Church does not try to deny that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy (it is detailed in the History of the Church). Why should your husband deny it?

Has he ever read D&C 132?

Paul

I’m sure he has read it because he knows a lot about the Mormon Church, but at the same time, he makes everything out to be “anti-Mormon” when someone asks him something. I think he is in denial about a lot of his church teachings. I once asked him why his church doesn’t still practice polygamy, because JS did, and he said no he didn’t, you read that from an Anti-Mormon site. I believe he is lost or confused, but I pray for him every night! He was 8 when he was baptized in his church and he went religiously every Sunday until he met me, and he hasn’t been one time since we have been together (11 years now). So confusing! I always wonder why he stopped. He still defends it though.