Mormon - Beliefs - A civil Discussion Please

[MEgus]

1:12
Vatotse ha’arets deshe esev mazria zera leminehu ve’ets oseh pri asher zar’o-vo leminehu vayar Elohim ki-tov.
1:13
Vayehi-erev vayehi-voker yom shlishi.
1:14
Vayomer Elohim yehi meorot birekia hashamayim lehavdil beyn hayom uveyn halaylah vehayu leotot ulemoadim uleyamim veshanim.
1:15
Vehayu li-meorot birekia hashamayim leha’ir al-ha’arets vayehi-chen.
1:16
Vaya’as Elohim et-sheney hameorot hagdolim et-hamaor hagadol le-memshelet hayom ve’et hamaor hakaton le-memshelet halaylah ve’et hakochavim.
1:17
Vayiten otam Elohim birekia hashamayim leha’ir al-ha’arets.
1:18
Velimshol bayom uvalaylah ulehavdil beyn ha’or uveyn hachoshech vayar Elohim ki-tov.
1:19
Vayehi-erev vayehi-voker yom revi’i.
1:20
Vayomer Elohim yishretsu hamayim sherets nefesh chayah ve’of yeofef al-ha’arets al-peney rekia hashamayim.
1:21
Vayivra Elohim et-hataninim hagedolim ve’et kol nefesh hachayah haromeset asher shartsu hamayim le-minehem ve’et kol-of kanaf leminehu vayar Elohim ki-tov.
1:22
Vayevarech otam Elohim lemor peru urevu umil’u et-hamayim bayamim veha’of yirev ba’arets.
1:23
Vayehi-erev vayehi-voker yom chamishi.
1:24
Vayomer Elohim totse ha’arets nefesh chayah leminah behemah varemes vechayeto-erets leminah vayehi-chen.
1:25
Vaya’as Elohim et chayat ha’arets leminah ve’et habehemah leminah ve’et kol-remes ha’adamah leminehu vayar Elohim ki-tov.

English Translation

1:12 The earth sent forth vegetation, plants bearing their own kinds of seeds, and trees producing fruits containing their own kinds of seeds. Elohim saw that it was good.
1:13 It was evening and it was morning, a third day.
1:14 Elohim said, ‘There shall be lights in the heavenly sky to divide between day and night. They shall serve as omens [and define] festivals, days and years.
1:15 They shall be lights in the heavenly sky, to shine on the earth.’ It happened.
1:16 Elohim [thus] made the two large lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the smaller light to rule the night. [He also made] the stars.
1:17 Elohim placed them in the heavenly sky to shine on the earth,
1:18 to rule by day and by night, and to divide between the light and the darkness. Elohim saw that it was good.
1:19 It was evening and it was morning, a fourth day.
1:20 Elohim said, ‘The water shall teem with swarms of living creatures. Flying creatures shall fly over the land, on the face of the heavenly sky.’
1:21 Elohim [thus] created the great sea monsters, along with every particular species of living thing that crawls, with which the waters teem, and every particular species of winged flying creature. Elohim saw that it was good.
1:22 Elohim blessed them, saying, ‘Be fruitful and become many, and fill the waters of the seas. Let the flying creatures multiply on the land.’
1:23 It was evening and it was morning, a fifth day.
1:24 Elohim said, ‘The earth shall bring forth particular species of living creatures, particular species of livestock, land animals, and beasts of the earth.’ It happened.
1:25 Elohim [thus] made particular species of beasts of the earth, particular species of livestock, and particular species of animals that walk the land. Elohim saw that it was good.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**Thanks for the lesson in Genesis! That brings back memories! I have always loved fairy tales and fables. the ones contained in Genesis do contain a lot of truths don’t they? One great thing about being Catholic, we don’t have to make up things to believe! Jesus provided us with all we need. The Turth. He is the Word the truth and the Way! Without His truth there is only the possibility of eternal damnation.

Please keep to the OP, Please. Yyou could start a Genesis101 thread if you want.

God Bless **

 

[MEgus]

Now, here’s where things get good.

1:26
Vayomer Elohim na’aseh adam betsalmenu kidemutenu veyirdu bidegat hayam uve’of hashamayim uvabehemah uvechol-ha’arets uvechol-haremes haromes al-ha’arets.
1:27
Vayivra Elohim et-ha’adam betsalmo betselem Elohim bara oto zachar unekevah bara otam.
1:28
Vayevarech otam Elohim vayomer lahem Elohim peru urevu umil’u et-ha’arets vechiveshuha uredu bidegat hayam uve’of hashamayim uvechol-chayah haromeset al-ha’arets.
1:29
Vayomer Elohim hineh natati lachem et-chol-esev zorea zera asher al-peney kol-ha’arets ve’et-kol-ha’ets asher-bo feri-ets zorea zara lachem yihyeh le-ochlah.
1:30
Ulechol-chayat ha’arets ulechol-of hashamayim ulechol romes al-ha’arets asher-bo nefesh chayah et-kol-yerek esev le’ochlah vayehi-chen.
1:31
Vayar Elohim et-kol-asher asah vehineh-tov me’od vayehi-erev vayehi-voker yom hashishi.

English Translation

1:26 Elohim said, ‘Let us make man with** our **image and likeness. Let him dominate the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock animals, and all the earth - and every land animal that walks the earth.’
1:27 Elohim [thus] created man with His image. In the image of Elohim , He created him, male and female He created them.
1:28 Elohim blessed them. Elohim said to them, 'Be fertile and become many. Fill the land and conquer it. Dominate the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, and every beast that walks the land.
1:29 Elohim said, ‘Behold, I have given you every seedbearing plant on the face of the earth, and every tree that has seedbearing fruit. It shall be to you for food.
1:30 For every beast of the field, every bird of the sky, and everything that walks the land, that has in it a living soul, all plant vegetation shall be food.’ It remained that way.
1:31 Elohim saw all that he had made, and behold, it was very good. It was evening and it was morning, the sixth day.

Now, if we are to understand the rest of the Scriptures, we need to study and ponder the very first. If we do not, then we will not be able to understand scripture that comes later as all new scripture has to conform to scripture previously revealed.

MEgus

 

[Realcatholicgk]

You notice, for the most part, this is very close to the Bible Scriptures we have, with the exception that the word Elohim has been replaced with the word God.

Hi Me,

I personally like to refer to God as IAM! He said that was his name! He is God! I also use Father and Jesus, but never ancient names from foreign languages. I know that in some of the LDS cults , the term Elohim (also spelled “Eloheim” by some of the other LDS cults) is often used to distinguish God the Father as a distinct member of the Godhead. The plural sense of “Elohim” is generally recognized by the LDS Church as meaning “the council of the gods”, often interpreted as the Godhead, in the creation story. This is particularly evident in Chapter 4 of the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price. Is that where you are headed? If so, I am not not interested!

 

[Realcatholicgk]

You notice, for the most part, this is very close to the Bible Scriptures we have, with the exception that the word Elohim has been replaced with the word God.

**
Hi Me,

I personally like to refer to God as IAM! He said that was his name! He is God! I also use Father and Jesus, but never ancient names from foreign languages. I know that in some of the LDS cults , the term Elohim (also spelled “Eloheim” by some of the other LDS cults) is often used to distinguish God the Father as a distinct member of the Godhead. The plural sense of “Elohim” is generally recognized by the LDS Church as meaning “the council of the gods”, often interpreted as the Godhead, in the creation story. This is particularly evident in Chapter 4 of the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price. Is that where you are headed? If so, I am not not interested! **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

…Now, if we are to understand the rest of the Scriptures, we need to study and ponder the very first. If we do not, then we will not be able to understand scripture that comes later as all new scripture has to conform to scripture previously revealed.

**

Hi ME,

Where have you ever heard this lie? That is foolish beyond words! :tsktsk: Your ignorance of scripture is apparent! :sad_yes: **

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

You know somthin, I don’t like the way ya hold your mouth when ya talk, so ya ain’t gona get much more answers from me.

zerinus

Zerinus, I’m so sorry you felt like I was being offensive. I was not trying to be at all. I’m sorry if it came across like that. I really just wanted to know what you thought of that. Truly am sorry!

 

[web2009]

**Hi mf,

I am sorry, was there and answer there somewhere? The dictionary defination of a cult is a group with an unorthodox belief system.
Work with me here. Do you think your belief system is orthodox? No one else does :ehh: 61,000 Protestant groups and the Catholic church doesn’t, and as I am sure you must know we rarely agree on very much! So please don’t avoid my questions!Which I restate so I can learn the truth as you know it!

I asked: Do you actually believe you can become a god? Just like Jesus? How many gods are there going to be 144,000 ?? You sure have some explaining to do, as we say here in Texas! God may not understand any more then I do! And I am actually trying to see your point of view! There was One God he wasn’t a creation like the rest of us. Do you think Jesus was a creation of the One God? Is the HS a creation of the One God? Is your God the original One God which real Christians call the Trinity?

God(s) Bless**/QUOTE

Hi just thought I would give you some feedback on your questions. I am an ex-mormon who left 5 years ago, after 17 years of active service and am now investigating the catholic church.

Mormons do strive to attain Godhood. That is the ultimate goal. When in this role, they will create their own worlds, and have their own spirit children that they will send to their own “earths”, just like our Father has.
I cant remember where the following scripture is from - I do not have any of their standard works anymore, but it states " as man is God once was, as God is, man may become".

As for your question about the 144 000, no, there will be as many gods as those who have: Had faith, repented, been baptised, received the gift of the Holy Ghost and then endured to the end. The last task is the tricky one - overcoming the trials and tribulations of the world, doing good works, going to the temple, being sealed to your partner for time and eternity.

The 144 000 is how many priesthood holders will be called to Adam-ondi-Ahmad (I think thats the correct spelling) to speak with the Savior, prior to his Second Coming. This date will only be known by those High Priests who are called. These priesthood holders, divided, represent the 12 tribes of Israel.

Hope that helps a little.

 

[Rainman2]

Well, that strengthens the mormon position, because they also needed to populate the earth, right?

Not really, because under the new covenant, God prohibits polygamy.

 

[JRKH]

I would like to touch again upon the idea of the Eternal marriage and ask the LDS answer to the following question:

Now, there were seven brothers who used to live here. The oldest got married and died without having children, so his brother married his widow. The same thing happened to the second brother, to the third, and finally to all seven. Last of all, the woman died. Now, on the day when the dead rise to life, whose wife will she be? All of them had married her

Now I’m asking for a simple and straightfoward answer from the LDS doctines.
Whose wife will she be?

Peace
James

 

[MEgus]

You seem to not understand the DNA studies. Please see Paul’s post above.

It doesn’t matter where the DNA to the middle east has been traced to, the point is, tracing population migration using DNA shows that the migration to the Amerias took place from Mongolia, not the middle east. NO DNA has been traced to the middle east. none. zero.

Again, you fail to look at all possibilities. Paul at least got most of the study right. But, again, it does not take things back to their beginnings.

Maybe I should ask you where did the Mongolians come from?

What we need to realize is that after Noah, there were not people of any decent upon the earth. Remember that event?

By the way, as a side note, DNA has also proved this event as well, with Eve as the mother dating back much farther than Noah as the father.

Now, we need to take the whole populations of the whole world back to this point with Noah. Then determine which of these groups went where if you want to prove something.

Where did the Mongolians come from?

Could they have been from a group of people from Noah in which Joseph’s wife came from?

You see, if your trying to find this answer, you need to have all the facts, which we don’t right now. One day, I’m sure we will, but for now, just as Paul said, this group goes back to six mothers. Now you need to trace these six back further. To a time when all the world only had four mothers. When that happens, we can talk.

MEgus

 

[MEgus]

Only willful ignorance or intellectual dishonesty could account for the claim that the Bible is inerrant and infallible. For someone to invest the Bible with the qualities of inerrancy and infallibility would be to in fact to idolatrize it, to transform it into a false god. Anyone who affirms that the Bible is the Word of God implies that the words of the Bible are the words of God. Such simplistic and absolute terms divest the Bible altogether of its humanity and remove it from the relativism of the historical process. No one can seriously claim all the words of the Bible are the very words of God. If someone does so it is only because that person is not willing thoroughly to explore its implications.

Real, are you sure your not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

Will you look at what you just wrote?

That sounds a whole lot more like the LDS belief than any other.

What’s even funnier, is this is coming from someone who takes a passage from a book of scripture that was originally written in Aramaic that we do not even have a single copy of, and the only thing we have is a translation of it in Greek, and you base your whole belief on that and hold to it.

Oh well, we all have our agency. Isn’t it a wonderful gift from God?

MEgus

 

[mfbukowski]

You seem to not understand the DNA studies. Please see Paul’s post above.

It doesn’t matter where the DNA to the middle east has been traced to, the point is, tracing population migration using DNA shows that the migration to the Amerias took place from Mongolia, not the middle east. NO DNA has been traced to the middle east. none. zero.

Not quite accurate.

An interesting article:

mormontimes.com/studies_doctrine/research_discoveries/?id=3123

 

[web2009]

I would like to touch again upon the idea of the Eternal marriage and ask the LDS answer to the following question:

Now, there were seven brothers who used to live here. The oldest got married and died without having children, so his brother married his widow. The same thing happened to the second brother, to the third, and finally to all seven. Last of all, the woman died. Now, on the day when the dead rise to life, whose wife will she be? All of them had married her

Now I’m asking for a simple and straightfoward answer from the LDS doctines.
Whose wife will she be?

Peace
James

Hi James,
In the LDS a marriage can be either civil or in the temple. A civil marriage only lasts until death do they part. A temple marriage is for time and eternity. A woman can only be sealed to one man in the temple. If this was for example, the case with her first husband, the other 6 would only be civil marriages, and she would hence spend eternity with the 1st.

On the other hand, if a man marries, and his wife passes on, he can get married to another in the temple. So it will be that as many women he marries in the temple, thats how many wives he will have in the eternities.

This was a doctrine that I silently accepted as a mormon woman, but battled within, until I finally left the church 5 years ago. I am now divorced. If I decided to stay in the mormon church, I would not be able to marry in the temple again, but my ex-husband would. The only way I would be granted a temple divorce, is if the prophet himself authorised it.

Being granted a temple divorce is a tricky affair - interviews with the priesthood, who then forward the information to the prophet, if they see fit. Likewise, having your name removed from the records is also an ordeal, involving the completion of documents and a series of interviews, where they will try and to convince you otherwise.

I have chosen at this stage, not to do either. Why not? Because my ex husband who was the bishops protoge was abusing us, and I asked for help, but the bishop refused to believe that he was capable of these things. It is him that I need to go see for my first series of interviews. This coming from a man who receives revelation directly from God for his fold. It was devastating to me to say the least, and they believed me only once evidence had been documented officially. But it was too little to late, and just another in a series of confirmations that this church was not what it claims to be.

 

[truthsilence]

This is a theologically interesting idea. As you probably know, Moroni 10 speaks of asking God about the truth of the Book of Mormon.

So you are arguing now as a Mormon would. And yes, he can tell you that both these passages are true. Perhaps not as you see them, but both can be confirmed that way as being his word.

mfbukowski,

Virtually everyone I know enters into scripture reading beginning with prayer.

You might be interested to learn about lectio divina, if you haven’t already.

I don’t claim to know alot but I do know that I can trust God to hear my prayer and to guide me into His truth. So I’m reading Ephesians with that promise in mind.

Enjoy the day.

Tami

 

[MEgus]

Thanks for the lesson in Genesis! That brings back memories! I have always loved fairy tales and fables. the ones contained in Genesis do contain a lot of truths don’t they?

Real, are you saying the Catholic beliefs are that Genesis is just a bunch of fairy tales?

That the Old Testament is irrelevant?

MEgus

 

[mfbukowski]

** Such simplistic and absolute terms divest the Bible altogether of its humanity and remove it from the relativism of the historical process.** …

If you want to understand scripture you should start with the Catholic church, and its teachings! Then you could find Jessie and eternal salvation! “The Bible, Tradition, and the Magisterium, no one of them can subsist without the other two” - Fr John Corapi

(Emphasis Added)

First of all, we don’t believe the bible is inerrant, so that’s one strawman gone.

Second of all, I would be curious for you to answer an apparant conflict in your position.

The bible, which the Catholic church gave us, according to you, has “humanity” and is “subject to the relativism of the historical process”. I totally agree.

Yet it is the Magisterium and Tradition, you say, which gave us the bible.

So the magesterium and tradition must also be “subject to the relativism of the historical process”.

If the bible is errant, and the Catholic church produced it, then the Catholic church must be errant.

I think that puts you in a Corapi position.

 

[mfbukowski]

Why would I go to a Mormon to understand Hebrew?

From the Jewish Encyclopedia:

“Pains are taken to refute the arguments based on the grammatical plurals employed in Biblical texts when referring to God. “Elohim” does not designate a plurality of deities. The very context shows this, as the verbs in the predicate are in the singular.”

Why not? You guys go to Catholics to understand Mormonism!

 

[web2009]

Not really, because under the new covenant, God prohibits polygamy.

Hi Rainman,

Based on previous posts received regarding my comment, it appears that God never was happy with polygamy, but tolerated it until the fullness of the gospel was established through Jesus Christ.

 

[MEgus]

I would like to touch again upon the idea of the Eternal marriage and ask the LDS answer to the following question:

Now, there were seven brothers who used to live here. The oldest got married and died without having children, so his brother married his widow. The same thing happened to the second brother, to the third, and finally to all seven. Last of all, the woman died. Now, on the day when the dead rise to life, whose wife will she be? All of them had married her

Now I’m asking for a simple and straightfoward answer from the LDS doctines.
Whose wife will she be?

Peace
James

James, Christ was talking of a specific incident. These were members of the Sadducees who did not believe in a resurrection.
As such, they also did not believe in marriage for all eternity and did not have such a marriage performed. So, his answer was to them specifically. Of these, none would be married to her in heaven and they would be single.

Other scriptures give us a different perspective on this and show that man and women are suppose to be together for ever.

MEgus