Mormon - Beliefs - A civil Discussion Please

[ricko]

Yeah, well Brigham was wrong, wasn’t he? Please notice; no 'thus saith the Lord" here in regard to inhabitants of the sun, but “I rather think it is.” Not exactly a ringing proclamation, that…

Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it

“No question of it” appears to meet the “ringing proclamation”

This was the only one you really had a problem with. Maybe not doctrine but certainly goes to character. So DO YOU believe that god lives on a giant crystal ball.??? See D&C 130:6-8.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Now, Rebecca, if I had forgotten, I would have asked you if you had ever actually read the Standard Works, not how long it has been since you DID read them.

I read the Bible often, the New American Bible.

Your other stuff, I have no interest in. Thanks.

So do Catholics. I’ve heard some really weird things come out of Catholics, and there are some outlying Catholic groups that are, very different. As well, individual Catholics have different ideas about all sorts of things. However, I am not going to take the strange thing that Mrs. Santanya said and insist that ALL Catholics MUST believe this and teach it. I know better.

IT is very easy to determine what is doctrine, or teaching based on doctrine. Some of what you may presume to be strange, may actually be perfectly acceptable, doctrine wise. But, yes, there are some beliefs floating out there that are show syncretism.

and you are still showing that you don’t understand the difference between doctrine and individual beliefs.

please, i understand the difference. You can’t seem to grasp that people believe things based on your doctrine. And teach them. Which, in Christianity, these sort of weirdness is “out there”. Not even thinkable in the context of Christian theology.

 

[mfbukowski]

No kidding. Y’know, I understand those who know what we believe and disagree with it. That’s at least fair–and there are plenty of those.

I don’t understand the mindset that things it is permissible to lie about what another group of people believes in order to discredit them. If the simple truth will not do that, then…???

Perhaps some rethinking should be in order?

 

[dianaiad]

“No question of it” appears to meet the “ringing proclamation”

This was the only one you really had a problem with. Maybe not doctrine but certainly goes to character. So DO YOU believe that god lives on a giant crystal ball.??? See D&C 130:6-8.

Only to you.

And…there is no way to say this diplomatically…your opinion doesn’t count. What counts is what the MORMONS think, in regard to Mormon doctrine, and WE don’t see that as a ‘ringing proclamation,’ and neither did Brigham Young.

What if I took any number of times that Catholics have sincerely declared their faith in Mary, and prayer to her, as worshiping her? After all, it sounds like a ringing declaration of worship to ME, right? Shouldn’t what it seems like to ME decide the issue for YOU?

Yet…no matter how fervently a Catholic prays to Mary for intervention, it is NOT worship…Mary is not a goddess, but the mother of God. Not the same thing. YOU know that–and since you are the ones doing the praying, and the worshiping, you are the ones who get to decide exactly what that MEANS.

I don’t. No non-Catholic does.

By the same token, you lost your right to proclaim LDS doctrine the day you left. Sorry, Rebecca, but you do NOT get to decide for all Mormons that we believe that there are inhabitants on the sun. You do NOT get to decide that Brigham Young was proclaiming that as doctrine.

We get to do that…and we don’t.

You aren’t a Mormon any more, Rebecca. Go, be a good Catholic and stop trying to tell us what we really believe just to justify your leaving. After all, if the simple truth doesn’t do that for you, you have a bigger problem than you think you do.

By the way, Rebecca, have you seen pictures of this ‘big blue marble’ from space? Pictures, by the way, that those who first wrote about “Crystal balls” did not see?

As well, try as you might, you did not prove your contention that God dwells on a planet.

Not that it would bother me if He did. He might; we do believe He has a physical body, and that means He might want to put His feet SOMEWHERE solid.

 

[ricko]

Only to you.

Please, a little charity. Why are you and ski so angry? I am not posting opinions. I am posting mostly stuff from Mormon teachers and mainly from the D&C. These are Mormon documents, I just put them on the board and I have not made any nasty comments as you two Mormons have. So what’s the problem? I really want to know. And you don’t have to be smart-alec with your comments. Do yall really believe that Satan has cursed all the waters especially rivers? That’s from the D&C.

And…there is no way to say this diplomatically…your opinion doesn’t count. What counts is what the MORMONS think, in regard to Mormon doctrine, and WE don’t see that as a ‘ringing proclamation,’ and neither did Brigham Young.
I did not voice my opinion dear, only Brigham Young’s. Try to be civil please.

What if I took any number of times that Catholics have sincerely declared their faith in Mary, and prayer to her, as worshiping her? After all, it sounds like a ringing declaration of worship to ME, right? Shouldn’t what it seems like to ME decide the issue for YOU?
As above, I am only posting Mormon documents, not opinions.

Yet…no matter how fervently a Catholic prays to Mary for** intervention**, it is NOT worship…Mary is not a goddess, but the mother of God. Not the same thing. YOU know that–and since you are the ones doing the praying, and the worshiping, you are the ones who get to decide exactly what that MEANS.
Gee wiz lady. Def. of “pray” - “ask”. You said it, intervention, just as I ask my friends to pray for me or someone else
I don’t. No non-Catholic does.

By the same token, you lost your right to proclaim LDS doctrine the day you left. Sorry, Rebecca, but you do NOT get to decide for all Mormons that we believe that there are inhabitants on the sun. You do NOT get to decide that Brigham Young was proclaiming that as doctrine.

We get to do that…and we don’t.

You aren’t a Mormon any more, Rebecca. Go, be a good Catholic and stop trying to tell us what we really believe just to justify your leaving. After all, if the simple truth doesn’t do that for you, you have a bigger problem than you think you do.

By the way, Rebecca, have you seen pictures of this ‘big blue marble’ from space? Pictures, by the way, that those who first wrote about “Crystal balls” did not see?
That’s a stretch. The D&C say you can look at the Earth and use it as a seer stone.
As well, try as you might, you did not prove your contention that God dwells on a planet.
We know He doesn’t, but it appears the Mormons do. If He doesn’t then please tell us where the Mormons believes He does dwell.

Not that it would bother me if He did. He might; we do believe He has a physical body, and that means He might want to put His feet SOMEWHERE solid.

 

[ricko]

Conversation between a Mormon and a Catholic:
I testify to you that these things are true. I testify to you that the Savior lives, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true Church, and that. . ."

“…Hold on! Your testimony proves nothing. I have a testimony that God does not live on Kolob…”

“…on a planet near Kolob.”

“Whatever. Anyway, I have a testimony contrary to yours. I testify to you that God is a pure spirit who’s not confined to a planet. I testify to you that the Catholic Church is the true Church and that the Pope is the vicar of Christ on Earth. Does my testimony convince you?”

“No.”

“Does my testimony prove that I’m right?”

“No.”

“Why not?”

“Because you’re sincere but wrong. The Holy Ghost has manifested the truth to us.”

“Why should I accept your testimony if you won’t accept mine?”

“Well we’ve studied it out in our minds and prayed about it and we’ve received the witness of the Holy Ghost–the burning in the bosom.”

“So have I, Elder Kimball.”

“It can’t be from the Holy Ghost.”

“Why not?”

“Well, umm…”

“Because it disagrees with your testimony?”

“Well, yes.”

“That’s hardly objective. In fact, that’s a pretty shoddy way to prove anything. You see we’ve both prayed and studied, and we’ve come up with contrary testimonies. One of us must be wrong. The Holy Ghost won’t testify to you that God the Father lives on Kolob and then testify to me that he doesn’t.”

“I agree. The Holy Ghost wouldn’t contradict himself.”

“So how can you be sure that you’re not wrong and the Holy Ghost isn’t giving Catholics the correct testimony?”

“We just know we’re right. You can’t explain this kind of a feeling. We also have continuing revelation from living prophets. Your church doesn’t.”
…
“You see, we Catholics believe in an infinite God. If God isn’t infinite–meaning unconfined by time and space–then he wouldn’t really be God. He’d be more of a cosmic super-hero like Superman. We believe in a God who is infinitely perfect, not merely an exalted man. Doesn’t that concept interest you just a little?”

Well, it’s an interesting idea, but I’m not sure I could believe it. It goes against what Joseph Smith and the rest of our prophets have revealed to us."

“What would it take to convince you God is an infinitely perfect God who transcends all limitations?”

“I don’t know. The arguments would have to be pretty convincing. But then again, how can I argue with my burning in the bosom? I know that’s true.”

“Don’t argue with it, just take some Rolaids, concentrate on the facts, and read Theology and Sanity–here’s a copy. Continue praying about it, and let’s talk next week, okay?”

 

[dianaiad]

I read the Bible often, the New American Bible.

Your other stuff, I have no interest in. Thanks.

That’s what I thought…and yet you present yourself as an expert on things that 'you have no interest in, thanks."

IT is very easy to determine what is doctrine, or teaching based on doctrine. Some of what you may presume to be strange, may actually be perfectly acceptable, doctrine wise. But, yes, there are some beliefs floating out there that are show syncretism.

You mean like the way the Catholics turned all those pagan gods and goddesses (St. Brigid, anybody?) into patron saints? THAT sort of syncretism?

Not quite the same thing, Rebecca. After all, syncretism is a melding of two different religious or cultural beliefs into one. What you are claiming for LDS thought is not that. Sorry, my linguist genes are making themselves felt, here.

please, i understand the difference. You can’t seem to grasp that people believe things based on your doctrine. And teach them. Which, in Christianity, these sort of weirdness is “out there”. Not even thinkable in the context of Christian theology.

No? What if I were to tell you that Christians out there, even some very influential and learned Christian scholars, think that Jesus’ advent upon the planet as Mary’s Son wasn’t His first time as a mortal?

What if I were to tell you that these learned and respected people claim that He appeared earlier–as Melchizedek?

I would be very careful about charging us with weirdnesses, Rebecca. You may not LIKE what we believe, but given the sorts of things that mainstream, even Catholic, peoples believe and practice, I think that ‘mote/beam’ might be an understatement.

 

[dianaiad]

ricko:
Ricko, please reformat your post so that someone can actually, y’know, ANSWER it without having to reformat it for you.

 

[RebeccaJ]

That’s what I thought…and yet you present yourself as an expert on things that 'you have no interest in, thanks."

sorry, you can brush off former mormons that easily. I remember what I was taught.

You mean like the way the Catholics turned all those pagan gods and goddesses (St. Brigid, anybody?) into patron saints? THAT sort of syncretism?

Not syncretism.

Not quite the same thing, Rebecca. After all, syncretism is a melding of two different religious or cultural beliefs into one. What you are claiming for LDS thought is not that. Sorry, my linguist genes are making themselves felt, here.

whatever

No? What if I were to tell you that Christians out there, even some very influential and learned Christian scholars, think that Jesus’ advent upon the planet as Mary’s Son wasn’t His first time as a mortal?

I would tell you that they are in error.

What if I were to tell you that these learned and respected people claim that He appeared earlier–as Melchizedek?

hi, this is Catholic belief.

I would be very careful about charging us with weirdnesses, Rebecca. You may not LIKE what we believe, but given the sorts of things that mainstream, even Catholic, peoples believe and practice, I think that ‘mote/beam’ might be an understatement.

Diana, there is weird and then there is CRAZY. As in unbelievable crazy. It is perfectly acceptable, and preferable, to REASON. Believing that JS translated a papyrus when it has been proven he made it all up is not REASONABLE. No matter how hard you try to spin it.

Believing god is created and had a god who was also created who had a god who also was created who had a god who also was created, to infinity, while simultaneous claiming God is eternal and infinite, is not only unreasonable, it is illogical.

 

[dianaiad]

sorry, you can brush off former mormons that easily. I remember what I was taught.

But you just admitted that you ‘have no interest’ in those things and don’t read them.

Not syncretism.

Dang. you are making me pull out the OED: * 1. Attempted union or reconciliation of diverse or opposite tenets or practices, esp. in philosophy or religion;*
Attempting to combine the beliefs of the pagans one is pulling into Christianity with the new religion by converting their deities is a classic example of just that. It was a great idea, actually.

whatever

(grin)

I would tell you that they are in error.

How about that. Has the point been made?

hi, this is Catholic belief.

It is? And you don’t think that someone coming across that belief–who had not been carefully brought up and introduced to it, wouldn’t think that was just NUTS???

Diana, there is weird and then there is CRAZY. As in unbelievable crazy. It is perfectly acceptable, and preferable, to REASON. Believing that JS translated a papyrus when it has been proven he made it all up is not REASONABLE. No matter how hard you try to spin it.

YOU think it has been so ‘proven.’ But it hasn’t been so proven either way.

Believing god is created and had a god who was also created who had a god who also was created who had a god who also was created, to infinity, while simultaneous claiming God is eternal and infinite, is not only unreasonable, it is illogical.

It is more illogical than having a God Who–for some unimaginable reason decided to create the entire universe in the utterance of a word all for this one group of people on this one planet on the edge of this one galaxy, among all the other stars, galaxies, worlds, suns, ALL of it…this is LOGICAL? What was He doing BEFORE? What will He do with US?

You can deal with these questions with faith.

But not logic.

 

[Stephen168]

YOU think it has been so ‘proven.’ But it hasn’t been so proven either way.

Really? I thought it had.

 

[Stephen168]

You mean like the way the Catholics turned all those pagan gods and goddesses (St. Brigid, anybody?) into patron saints?

Interesting. I can now see the wisdon of Pope John II

 

[RebeccaJ]

But you just admitted that you ‘have no interest’ in those things and don’t read them.

Dang. you are making me pull out the OED: * 1. Attempted union or reconciliation of diverse or opposite tenets or practices, esp. in philosophy or religion;*
Attempting to combine the beliefs of the pagans one is pulling into Christianity with the new religion by converting their deities is a classic example of just that. It was a great idea, actually.

Diana, syncretism is taking two beliefs, or more, and merging those beliefs together. Santaria is a good example of this. A blend of African tribal religious beliefs and Catholicism. In this religion, it is neither its original African or Catholicism, it is a mix.

When the Catholic church evangelizes, she integrates existing cultures. It is a different model from mormonism, where you have people showing up in business suits in the jungle and telling them all good worship is done using piano music. We let the people in the jungle retain their culture. What we give them is the Truth of Who Jesus Christ is and what the Apostles taught.

St. Brigid WAS a pagan goddess. All beliefs and practices behind this pagan entity were replaced, not merged or mixed, when the people who worshiped this diety were evangelized and converted to Christ.

Do you need proof of this? Are Irish Catholics, Catholic, or pagan? Do they believe St Brigid is a goddess?

(grin)

I say whatever Diana because you have a non-argument. Not even anything I can respond to because it is like you are telling me how wonderful it is that the sun rises in the west every morning. There is no telling Mormons anything, it is pointless, you believe what you want to believe, for whatever reason. I have no idea.

How about that. Has the point been made?

No. You read Christian writing and apply Mormon thought, which, means you have not understood what you have read and certainly are not able to convey what the Christian writer meant.

So, no, I am not sure of what you are conveying is even accurate.

It is? And you don’t think that someone coming across that belief–who had not been carefully brought up and introduced to it, wouldn’t think that was just NUTS???

Diana, anyone who understand the truthfulness of the Trinity, and understand God to be Infinite, will have no problem whatsoever with Jesus being where and when He wanted to be. He taught this Himself, in different ways.

YOU think it has been so ‘proven.’ But it hasn’t been so proven either way.

Diana, I know it has been proven. The papyrus that is in your pearl of great price, that JS “translated” with all sorts of fantasy about kolob and crystal balls, has really been translated. It is a funeral document.

It is more illogical than having a God Who–for some unimaginable reason decided to create the entire universe in the utterance of a word all for this one group of people on this one planet on the edge of this one galaxy, among all the other stars, galaxies, worlds, suns, ALL of it…this is LOGICAL? What was He doing BEFORE? What will He do with US?

You can deal with these questions with faith.

But not logic.

Hi Diana, I know very well why God Created me and where He wants me to be. What will He do with US? What He has promised, bring us to everlasting life in His presence. I trust, with my entire heart and mind, that He knows my every need and so I do not need to worry that heaven will be anything less than what He has planned for us.

I don’t know why Mormons have this obsession with what God is doing and why. Do you not trust that He is good and is taking care of you?

Yes, I have FAITH and can use reason, to know that everything God does and has done is good. I can REASON, by His Sacrifice, that God wants and is able to show us His purposes and His perfection. My Faith is not blind.

---

“Just as the sun shines simultaneously on the tall cedars and on each little flower as though it were alone on the earth, so Our Lord is occupied particularly with each soul as though there were no others like it. And just as in nature all the seasons are arranged in such a way as to make the humblest daisy bloom on a set day, in the same way, everything works out for the good of each soul.”

This, Diana, was written by St. Thérèse, who we call Little Flower. She conveys what it means to be drawn more deeply to God, Who is Love.

 

[Jerusha]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_(mythology

 

[PaulDupre]

No? What if I were to tell you that Christians out there, even some very influential and learned Christian scholars, think that Jesus’ advent upon the planet as Mary’s Son wasn’t His first time as a mortal?

What if I were to tell you that these learned and respected people claim that He appeared earlier–as Melchizedek?

You are confused. We Catholics believe that Melchizedek was the pre-incarnate Jesus (God the Son), not Jesus as a mortal.

There are a number of theophanies in the OT. All of them were Jesus. None of them were mortals.

Paul

 

[dianaiad]

Really? I thought it had.

no. It has not been proven. Either way.

 

[Cathhsmom]

St. Brigid WAS a pagan goddess. All beliefs and practices behind this pagan entity were replaced, not merged or mixed, when the people who worshiped this diety were evangelized and converted to Christ.

Do you need proof of this? Are Irish Catholics, Catholic, or pagan? Do they believe St Brigid is a goddess?

Just to be clear here. There is a SAINT Brigid and a Pagan Goddess Brigid. The Saint Brigid was named after the pagan goddess because her father was a pagan.

From Wikipedia:

Sainthood
Whether she was raised a Christian or converted in 468, as some accounts say, is unknown, but she was inspired by the preaching of Saint Patrick from an early age. Despite her father’s opposition she was determined to enter religious life. Numerous stories testify to her piety. She had a generous heart and could never refuse the poor who came to her father’s door. Her charity angered her father: he thought she was being overly generous to the poor and needy when she dispensed his milk and flour to all and sundry. When she finally gave away his jewel-encrusted sword to a leper, Dubhthach realized that perhaps her disposition was best suited to the life of a nun. Brigid finally got her wish and she was sent to a convent.

Brigid received the veil from Saint Mel and professed vows dedicating her life to Christ. From this point biographers heap stories and legends on Brigid. She is believed to have founded a convent in Clara, County Offaly - her first: other foundations followed. But it was to be in Kildare that her major foundation would emerge. Around 470 she founded Kildare Abbey, a double monastery, for nuns and monks, on the plains of Cill-Dara, “the church of the oak”, her cell being made under a large oak tree. As Abbess of this foundation she wielded considerable power. Legends surround her, even her blessing as Abbess by Saint Mel has a story attached to it. According to the legend, the elderly bishop, as he was blessing her during the ceremony, inadvertently read the rite of consecration of a bishop and this could not be rescinded, under any circumstances. Brigid and her successor Abbesses at Kildare had an administrative authority equal to that of a Bishop until the Synod of Kells in 1152.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigid_of_Kildare

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

the prophet joseph smith taught: “god himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man. … he was once a man like us … god himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth. …”

how could he have been like us and dwelt on this earth and became a god if he created the earth and everything on it, you know the whole genesis story?

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

What is the Millennium all about if it is not simply a period when earthly civilization will be brought under the government of superior beings from another world who will visit earth frequently to direct affairs on earth! Indeed, when looked at in perspective, the gospel becomes enormously exciting and sophisticated.

But these beings from outer space, or another world, will not be aliens. They will be our brethren who have lived upon this earth in mortality. All of us in the Church are expending our energies in the gospel partly because of the assignment from the Lord to inform the world of this coming visitation by him and other people from outer space, or from the heavens.

Seriously??

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Oh yea, here is the link for everything I quoted below this post. That way no one will be able to tell me that I am visiting Anti-Mormon sites. I go straight to the source when ever I want to know the truth on a belief.

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=0b5f630f0869b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1#footnote17