Mormon Chat

[KathleenGee]

I notice the numbers that jump when we discuss the apostasy…the gist of why Mormonism exists.

We have many lurkers, and I assume likewise, most are Mormons who look at our threads.

Either they are wanting to find out the actual differences between Catholicism, the great adversary of the Mormon religion, or they are truly searching, or they are using CAF to glean our faith and reasoning, and work to offer rebuttals.

Mormonism is now re-interpreting the Early Church Fathers as proving the foundation that Mormons can become gods. They are now no longer believing in Kolob, etc…but totally misinterpreting the reality of the new life in Christ in contrast to the ancient domination of paganism and its effects.

So you are going to be discussing things that are new beliefs in Mormonism, with subtle nuances of differences, and as another said, you will end up with thought process going in the direction of a pretzel.

They firmly believe, the Mormons who are now in this new Mormonism, are in the true church irregardless of the behavior of their founder and history all the way up modern times. I just found a quote by a former prophet president, not so many years ago, after 1997, still making anti-Catholic remarks.

A Protestant minister said after being with Mormons for 2 years, every body had a different take.

So if people want to go around and around in circles in Mormon forums, encounter alot of denial, and continue with their claims as being the true Christians, I would take some Tums and drink a glass of wine, and have some balmy pleasant music going on in the background.

 

[jrtrent]

I went ahead and visited to ask them some questions as well as try my hand at a bit of entry level apologetic’s. I ended up talking to two different people, who were very nice, but every time I go to what I thought was a good question they said they would email me some more information and that they had to go.

I’m curious as to just what these “good questions” were.

My question is, do you think this is a good use of my (or anyone’s) time, going to their chat service and trying to lead them to the Church?

I don’t think so. Their site says, “Use this feature to speak with a missionary online. They’ll chat with you in real time and try to help you find answers to whatever questions you may have about the topics introduced on Mormon.org. It’s an easy way to have a casual conversation about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—anything from how to use the Web site to how to get a hold of a Book of Mormon.”

Trying to lead them to the Church doesn’t strike me as having a “casual conversation,” and it might also get you off of whatever topic from Mormon.org you went there to ask questions about.

 

[LongJourney]

If they back off every time you really challenge them, you are not going to get anywhere. They are salespeople, and have no desire to waste their time when they know that they aren’t going to get a tithe-paying customer.

Better to invite the missionaries IRL to visit and relax with food and pop. That way, you can invite them to read some fine literature from before 1830.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I just came out from Ex-Mormon.org. . . .

Kathleen,

You and I have both been in discussions here with LDS. Some were pretty rough, to say the least.

I urge the OP to be very careful. Mormons are skilled in using semantics to deflect certain questions.

In fact, I am rather concerned about a Catholic here, bpcatholic, who has been talking to LDS friends and missionaries and is defending them.

See thread: Americans Learned Little About the Mormon Faith, But Some Attitudes Have Softened

Post #26 and Post #30.

I posted this:

bpcatholic,

Please be careful in dealing with your Mormon friends. Some are very skilled in using semantics to deflect certain questions.

This has been demonstrated here on CAF by ParkerD, a Mormon who posted on CAF for about 3 years.

Compare ParkerD’s two posts:

Post #180
“First, we don’t “go to our own planet and rule there”. For those who become joint heirs with Jesus Christ, who created this world, then they are made “ruler over many things”, but they also join “with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to go no more out” and thus the Celestial city is where those who are made “rulers” dwell. . . . .”

Post 448
“Quote (Joseph Fielding Smith):
(1) The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fullness of his kingdom. (2) In other words, we will have the privilege of becoming like him. (3) To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. (4) There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. (5) **We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring.” (numbers added for below Biblical references). . . **"

After quoting Joseph Fielding Smith, ParkerD said,". . . .But many people will not see these promises as remotely possible, and will say they are not possible (which is self-fulfilling for them) so they are totally conditional promises–conditioned on individual choices and desires and being willing to follow the Son where He leads, because of their desire to follow Him and seek the fullness of His grace to become one with Him as He is One with His Father."

---

ParkerD denied that Mormons will “go to their own planet and rule there,” but quoted Joseph Fielding Smith: “We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring.”

Anna

AND

They are still teaching exaltation: “they will become gods.”

2011 Chapter 47: Exaltation

Gospel Principles, (2011), 275–80
Blessings of Exaltation

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:62).

2. They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23).

1. They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase.
2. They will receive a fulness of joy.
3. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20). President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to His commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce*R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:36; italics in original).
   ____________________________________-

Dec. 1986 The New Testament—A Matchless Portrait of the Savior

We know not, even now, the outer circumference of the ministry of Jesus Christ. In any event, the Perfect Shepherd, Jesus, who is affirmed Creator of worlds by the New Testament, certainly did not create other worlds and then forget them. That He did create other worlds is intriguingly alluded to in these verses of modern scripture:
“That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.” (D&C 76:24.)

Maybe you and other Catholics could talk with bpcatholic. I’m a bit worried. bpcatholic is not listening to me–which is understandable, since I’m not Catholic.

Peace and blessings to you Kathleen,
Anna

 

[LongJourney]

It really disturbs me when I see/hear Catholics defending Mormonism, based on similar-sounding ethical systems. I call them Mormo-Catholics, and they can slide into Mormonism without even realizing it. Sometimes they need to complete that slide and then repent upon the realization that we are right.

The risk is that they only know about the superficial aspects, which are reasonable when one realizes that Mormonism is a superficial imitation of Catholicism. In deeper examination, one comes to realize that there is an inherent opposition between the two religions. Put simply, they lie.

bpcatholic is not listening to me–which is understandable, since I’m not Catholic.

So what makes it understandable that such a person would listen to Mormons? You, as a conservative Anglican are more like a cousin to us. Mormons are tenth cousins twice removed…

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I urge the OP to be very careful. Mormons are skilled in using semantics to deflect certain questions.

The most dangerous false faiths and heresies are the ones that make themselves appear so legitimate, and conform to appear legitimate. One has to ask themselves which is more dangerous: a bottle marked “poison” with a skull and crossbones…or a glass of clear water with a single drop of cyanide?

Mormons will use language to appear orthodox or sound, such as saying they believe that God is the “God of this world,” which sounds Christian until you realize that they mean “God of this world, as in, earth, with gods on other planets.” That’s why I suggested the OP author really study Mormon thought, so that he can understand where Christian and Mormon theology truly differs.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Anna…it is sounding to me that BP is already in another place, his integrity of faith shattered by this so called Mormon relativism that is now coming in feeding back to us Catholic concepts and even in the manner of Catholic use of language.

Just looking at the materials I read from the past, the Mormon religion is working very hard to re-define itself as well as deny any past teachings, yet claim to be the one true Church.

Many threads here in regards to Mormonism say it is like walking down a hallway of mirrors.

No Mormonism is not like us, and in fact it is constantly working to invalidate and subordinate us.

So rather…I would say now, I would prefer to be in the certainty of my faith, express it from where I am and how I have grown up in it, and be on my own turf to defend it.

I also remember you, Anna, and CARM. I finally went there and it was like I could almost hear the fire sizzling…you identify yourself, and already the sneering comments come forward. I went back for about 45 minutes, and had a post correcting a false statement, that was then deleted, and I also went to some Catholics and told them not to go there.

The ambient of anti-Catholic, competitive sites in themselves, depending on their intensity, pretty much minimalize anything you have to say or correct, and reading the Catholic posts, they are good but they look to me as on the foolish side…

Like, ‘hit me again!,’…do it, ‘hit me again.’

No I am not going back to subject the integrity of my faith to such behaviors.

 

[KathleenGee]

Byz, yes the most dangerous, and the reason I don’t let them slide here…I try to stay out of big arguments, but when people come across as grossly misinformed, or overlaying our faith with their beliefs, or those who have left the Church…many times i can tell simply because they do not think like Mormons who were born into it, or they deny any prior beliefs, it is lying to me.

So I can’t let it sit. Often times I back out because I have to bite my tongue.

Therefore, I try to spend more time praying for the Mormons than dealing with their manipulative behaviors.

 

[Anna_Scott]

It really disturbs me when I see/hear Catholics defending Mormonism, based on similar-sounding ethical systems. I call them Mormo-Catholics, and they can slide into Mormonism without even realizing it. Sometimes they need to complete that slide and then repent upon the realization that we are right.

The risk is that they only know about the superficial aspects, which are reasonable when one realizes that Mormonism is a superficial imitation of Catholicism. In deeper examination, one comes to realize that there is an inherent opposition between the two religions. Put simply, they lie.

The risk is great, because Mormons are so skilled in convincing others that they are Christians, just as Catholics are Christians or Anglicans are Christians. It’s easy to be pulled in. I know this from personal experience, I’m sad to say.

You are right about the risk in only knowing the superficial aspects. Many of their real doctrines are not presented, until one is Baptized into Mormonism. So, unless a potential convert has family or friends who know the deeper aspects of Mormonism, one can easily be pulled in.

So what makes it understandable that such a person would listen to Mormons? You, as a conservative Anglican are more like a cousin to us. Mormons are tenth cousins twice removed…

Very kind of you to say; but I’m worried about bpcatholic. I don’t really know this poster. I’m hoping Catholics will talk to him/her.

 

[Anna_Scott]

The most dangerous false faiths and heresies are the ones that make themselves appear so legitimate, and conform to appear legitimate. One has to ask themselves which is more dangerous: a bottle marked “poison” with a skull and crossbones…or a glass of clear water with a single drop of cyanide?

Mormons will use language to appear orthodox or sound, such as saying they believe that God is the “God of this world,” which sounds Christian until you realize that they mean “God of this world, as in, earth, with gods on other planets.” That’s why I suggested the OP author really study Mormon thought, so that he can understand where Christian and Mormon theology truly differs.

Good advice, Mr. Wolf.

You are so right that one must understand where Christian and Mormon theology really differ. Their god is an exalted man for starters–Mormonism is paganism dressed up like Christianity. I agree that “the most dangerous false faiths and heresies are the ones that make themselves appear so legitimate.”
Anna

 

[Adamski]

I was banned from lds forum yesterday for asking questions they couldn’t answer

 

[KathleenGee]

Adamski, well atleast you tried to share the truth of your faith, and the Lord blesses you for that for reaching out.

To be more clear, forums that are under one’s religion, of course, does not want people using it to proseltyze for another they oppose. So the construct is deliberately set up to prove their belief system correct.

Again, religious forums are set up almost like gambling casinos using computers…quantum theory of physics where the gamblers get tid bits of wins, but in the long run lose and the casino gets the profit.

Religious forums are set up to affirm their beliefs, not yours. Ours is no different here at CAF.

Moderators here want non-Catholics to come on. They challenge our faith and cause us to better defend it in the long run. But how far does one go in sharing to then cross over to prosetyze…it is a judgment call.

I think with Mormons the debate is going beyond the construct of the Great Apostasy.

What is happening now is the Mormons using the Early Church Fathers to prove their concept of Theosis, becoming gods…now…now these past months, although there is difference of Mormon opinion of what they mean now in exaltation, having disowned past statements by their former founders, leaders, and prophets.

So I think the debate is changing from the Great Apostasy to early Church history, and already the Mormons are staking it for themselves. Incredible audacity and covering up their own sad history.

It makes me wonder what kind of people who wanted to join a belief like that 100 years ago.

So you have to compare their history against ours, and theirs is an ever changing one, and am enbarrassing one at that. Ex Mormon.org is testament to it.

I wonder if there could be more good going to this site, to help them find God…they have been so damaged. I reached out to someone, a former Mormon, living in my state. He was very nice to me and polite, but very closed, not capable at this time of ever believing in God and religion again.

Another one to pray for…Mormons and ex Mormons.

I know there was some very nice Mormon apologists here coming across very nice, but reading their posts in time, began to look like backward prosletyzing…then there seemed to be several using the same name and then they were banned.

Anyway, thanks…Adamski…may be reach out to ex Mormons but there are some who really hate religion now as well. So if you decide to share, guard your heart but go in faith, hope, and joy…what the Holy Father is calling us to grow in, the cardinal virtues of Jesus Christ.

God bless you!

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . .I also remember you, Anna, and CARM. I finally went there and it was like I could almost hear the fire sizzling…you identify yourself, and already the sneering comments come forward. I went back for about 45 minutes, and had a post correcting a false statement, that was then deleted, and I also went to some Catholics and told them not to go there. . . .

Actually, Baptist Board is the one who banned me as a “Catholic Troll”, after responding to false claims they were posting about Catholic beliefs. I was still officially a member of the Baptist Church at that time. I’ve never had such horrible things said to me.

CARM is horrible also. I’d stay away from them. I joined there hoping to make a positive difference, but immediately realized it would be a waste of time and energy. When the owners of a site are so anti-Catholic; there’s not much hope, I’m afraid.

As for Mormonism, I think it is better to deal with that issue on your own turf. I realize I’m not Catholic; but this is comfortable turf after nearly 4 years.

Anna

 

[jrtrent]

I was banned from lds forum yesterday for asking questions they couldn’t answer

Really? That’s the explanation they gave you? We can’t answer your questions so you’re banned?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Their god is an exalted man for starters–Mormonism is paganism dressed up like Christianity.

It is truly ironic that, in terms of monotheism, Islam has a lot more in common with orthodox Christianity than a supposed “church” which tries to pass itself off as just another denomination.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

I saw an ad on Pandora Radio today for a mormon chat room which is available on the main mormon website.

I went ahead and visited to ask them some questions as well as try my hand at a bit of entry level apologetic’s. I ended up talking to two different people, who were very nice, but every time I go to what I thought was a good question they said they would email me some more information and that they had to go. They also offered to schedule a time to chat more later.

My question is, do you think this is a good use of my (or anyone’s) time, going to their chat service and trying to lead them to the Church? I understand that if you’re not strong in your faith it might not be a good idea, but for those of us who are I mean.

Any insight is appreciated. Also, if you think it is a good idea, maybe include some good questions to ask them as soon as you connect since they don’t seem to want to chat for too long to any one person.

Thanks!

In my opinion, if you’re strong in your Faith, attending Mass most days and regularly study your our Catholic Faith & Bible then it’s great to engage for two reasons: 1. The more time the Missionary(ies) spend with you, the less time they’re spending with someone who may be vulnerable 2. There’s always the chance that God-Willing a seed will be planted in the Missionary(ies) you chat with.

 

[Anna_Scott]

It is truly ironic that, in terms of monotheism, Islam has a lot more in common with orthodox Christianity than a supposed “church” which tries to pass itself off as just another denomination.

Yes, Mr. Wolf, that is ironic, especially since so much fuss was made about Pres. Obama being a “closet Muslim” (a quick Internet search will reveal sooo many of these claims.) Yet, I didn’t hear much about Mormonism during the last campaign. Though on the other Mormon thread I linked earlier, there were stats that showed Romney’s faith came up more. Didn’t seem that way. Guess it depends on which media a person watches/listens to.

 

[Razanir]

How does Mormon Chat work? Mainly, is it IM’ing or is it like Skype? If it’s the former, I might check out the website just to get a few questions answered about Mormons.

 

[tyler56]

I met a couple mormon missionaries today in a restaurant parking lot. They gave me a card and said to go to their site and chat with them. I did but didnt get very far. They kept asking me to pray with them about the restoration of the gospel.
Also it is IM. They will have two people.

Im a beginner at apologetics. I asked them why it took so long to restore the church. (from death of last apostle to start of mormon church in 1820s) I never got a straight answer. One just said, “I dont know why it took so long.”

I think I did pretty good but I dont think anything will happen.

 

[inomcoke]

How does Mormon Chat work? Mainly, is it IM’ing or is it like Skype? If it’s the former, I might check out the website just to get a few questions answered about Mormons.

It is a chat thing. You go to the Mormon website, click on chat at the top, fill out your name and email and it will open you up a new window to chat.

Two “missionary’s” join and then you chat with them.

I’ve gone in 3 times now and so far they are always nice (of course), but once you get down to questions that are difficult they seem to want to disconnect.

Someone earlier in the thread asked what questions I asked them:
I asked them about their teaching on abortion (regarding the fact that they say it is ok in the case of rape/incest) and how I thought that goes against “thou shall not kill”. We discussed for a bit and then they just said that this was a hard subject and that she just trusts the leadership of her church. I said “fair enough, I can’t consider a church that is inconsistent on abortion like this so Mormon must not be for me”. She said, “Ok, Thank you.” and disconnected. lol I guess they don’t want me too badly.