Mormon Christ "pretty close" to Christ of the Bible

[twopekinguys]

But it entirely different to say “JF Kennedy was a mortal human. He had a beginning and an end” with “JFK was an immortal lizard person, who never died, and now resides in his underground lizard kingdom”.

Its not the same JFK, or God, if their very NATURE, their very ESSENCE is different. In Jewish thought, a name is not merely an arbitrary designation, a random combination of sounds. The name conveys the nature and essence of the thing named. It represents the history and reputation of the being named.

We know from the Tetragammaton that God is defined by his very “being”. No other created being, you or I can claim that. God “is”, and always have been. We may have similar ideas about God’s loving nature, etc, but the vital differences between what God is, and what we humans are will never be reconciled.

We have to remember that mormons believe and teach that their god had a physical body
(D & C 130:22 It is also in their gospel principles manual), and I believe that contributes to their skewed view of things.

 

[pinay]

You are confusing and combining several issues to the point that your posts aren’t very coherent.

I know what the temple is, and I know about the ceremonies. Personally, I don’t agree with anything that goes on there, but that is for another topic.

I also never said anything about apostates entering the temple, so I’m not sure why or how you got to that conclusion.

Let’s look at it this way, and maybe you will understand.

If you go for your recommend interview, and your bishop gets to the part about associating with apostates. You say, “Yes, I go to Mass, and I agree that Jesus is in the Eucharist”, do you think you are going to get your recommend? Of course you’re not. The bishop is going to tell you to quit doing it. He is going to tell you to quit associating (shun) those people who got you to do that.

or

You go for your interview, and when it comes to the apostate question, you say something like, “My neighbors have a Bible study, and some of their thoughts make sense”. He is going to tell you to stop going (shun) them.

So, as you see, if you want your recommend bad enough, you are going to stay away from those people and those situations. Therefore, it is shunning.

The lds don’t want you in a position to where you might believe something other than what they are feeding you.

I know the lds don’t mind if you go to another church’s service or Mass. I see missionaries at Mass quite frequently. Even converted a couple…

So, long story short, your bishop/church is telling you to shun people.

By the way, the dictionary shows the definition of “shun” as:

to keep away from (a place, person, object, etc.), from motives of dislike, caution, etc.; take pains to avoid.

See the connection? If not, I’m not sure anyone could ever explain it to you.

I am so sorry twopekinguys. I just don’t understand your point. You have a completely wierd understanding of temple recommend interviews and LDS doctrine.

Okay, let’s start with this:
LDS Article of Faith:
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

and

*We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. *

Therefore, LDS members do not just limit themselves to the good things of the LDS church - they are encouraged to seek anything virtuous, lovely, praiseworthy, and of good report from EVERYWHERE and that includes teachings from other churches that are aligned with the LDS doctrine.

My bishop will NEVER ever tell anybody to shun people lest he be struck down!

Now, if you’re an LDS member, you must have gained a testimony of the Great Apostasy - otherwise, if you don’t, then you need to go to the Catholic Church!

So, if you are LDS, you CANNOT believe that the Catholic Eucharist and Holy Communion has proper authority! It’s like asking YOU, a Catholic, to believe that the sacrament of bread and water administered by an LDS priest is a proper sacrament and still be a Catholic! It just cannot happen!

So, of course, if you profess that you believe in the Catholic Eucharist, you cannot get a temple recommend! That just doesn’t make sense that you would even want one.

Now, your mother, father, brother, sister, best friend, identical twin, professing that the Catholic Eucharist is truth has no bearing at all on whether YOU get a temple recommend!

Now, my entire family is Catholic. Why would I need to shun them to go to the LDS Temple? That COMPLETELY doesn’t make sense. Especially for an LDS who esteem families of the utmost importance.

FREE AGENCY (or free will) is something that is drilled into every LDS member’s head. You hear it all the time. It is so important that the LDS doctrine do not hold to original sin because Adam and Eve’s sin are their own and has no bearing to anybody else. How much more for my neighbors?

For an LDS member, there are too many more things you have to do to pass that temple recommend interview to even worry about your friends and family being apostates. I am not kidding. It is not easy to get that temple recommend. It is completely based on your own worthiness and not anybody else’s - the biggest of which is if you are true to your baptismal covenants. As a matter of fact, if your bishop would find out you shun other people by choice, you’re probably not going to get that recommend until you go through repentance process first because shunning people is completely against your baptismal covenant.

So, yeah, I am completely confused.

 

[twopekinguys]

So, yeah, I am completely confused.

Thats all that needs to be said.

 

[pinay]

Thats all that needs to be said.

I am sorry twopekinguys, today is not a good day for me. I am going to stay away from this forum today because I feel like Christian charity has left this place. This is the 2nd thread I commented on today that I just can’t seem to get a point across.

When a discussion is made for the purpose of contention instead of understanding, the Holy Spirit cannot dwell. This is teaching that is shared by all churches especially in the Catholic and LDS churches who profess to be the one true church. When I find myself unconsciously contributing to contention like I have here, I have to stop.

You mentioned something about the “persecution card” or some such. Maybe you are right that I’m sounding like stop-beating-on-the-persecuted whine. I admit, I am feeling persecuted today. So, I need to get over myself before I come back here.

I should do better tomorrow. I’ll be back then.

 

[pinay]

But isn’t it more than just “what he looks like”? It’s entirely different to say “JF Kennedy was a mortal human. He had a beginning and an end” with “JFK was an immortal lizard person, who never died, and now resides in his underground lizard kingdom”.

Its not the same JFK, or God, if their very NATURE, their very ESSENCE is different. In Jewish thought, a name is not merely an arbitrary designation, a random combination of sounds. The name conveys the nature and essence of the thing named. It represents the history and reputation of the being named.

We know from the Tetragammaton that God is defined by his very “being”. No other created being, you or I can claim that. God “is”, and always have been. We may have similar ideas about God’s loving nature, etc, but the vital differences between what God is, and what we humans are will never be reconciled.

Scipio, that’s the point in the “pretty close” quote. That, unlike your view that Mormons believe that JFK is a lizard god living in his lizard kingdom, it’s not THAT different - it is actually “pretty close”.

Of course, you don’t have to believe it.

 

[SirThomasMore]

I do, just to let you know.

Ok…if you have the time to waste, be my guest

Even if we don’t have the same understanding of exactly how he looks like doesn’t mean we have different Gods.

Yes, it does. Your god is NOT the true God. That has been established.

It’s like somebody saying, “the J F Kennedy I know is a liberal democrat” and another somebody says, “well, the J F Kennedy I know is more conservative than today’s moderate democrat”. They’re talking about the same J F Kennedy and follow the same “ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country” principle.

Horrible analogy. Here is a beeter one. The JFK you know is a man. Then someone says, “The JFK I know used to be a woman with 4 legs and is now a liberal democrat”. Not the same JFK. In fact, the wrong JFK says, “ask not what people should believe, ask what you can fool them into believing…”

Of course, Joe already thought that.

But, it’s okay, you don’t have to accept my prayers

Not mine to accept or reject. They are your prayers. I just wish you were praying to the True God, and not the imitation you pray to
.

 

[SirThomasMore]

does your LDS Manual say you must eat? Bathe? Go to the doctor? Lock your doors? Change clothes everyday?

you did not answer this question

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

We are in agreement here, but we should also note that there is a difference between being “apostate”, and in “schism”.

Agreed. Mormons call everyone that leaves their church “apostate”. We have differences between apostasy, heresy, and schism.

 

[SirThomasMore]

SirThomasMore;6755313:

Okay. That’s fine.

And it is true

I hope when you learn about Catholic history that you won’t treat it as badly as you treat the LDS church.

Telling the truth is not treating the lds church badly. And I know Catholic history. Funny thing, in the bad Catholic Chistory, there was no one who claimed to talk directly to God and that God said to do those things. When a man does a bad thing, it is just a man doing a bad thing. When a man does a bad thing because God told him to do it, then either the man is crazy, is lying, or the god is just a horrible god

If what you do to the LDS church on this forum is representative of what you feel is true Christianity, then I will tell you straight out, the Catholic church do not hold to that kind of behavior from its members.

Speaking out against false prophets is what Jesus said to do. He said he was not here to bring harmony. You want harmony because defending the bad is never fun. As a criminal defense attorney, I often had to defend really bad people. I sounded a lot like you, Why, and the other mormons: I would deflect and throw out red herrings. Defending bad is simply never fun

 

[SirThomasMore]

I am sorry twopekinguys, today is not a good day for me.

I am sorry. I will pray for you

I am going to stay away from this forum today because I feel like Christian charity has left this place.

I disagree. Just because we are adamanet about the falsehoods of the LDS faith does not mean are not charitable. One of the most charitable things a person can do is tell a friend when they are wrong. Charioty was never meant to mean standing by while people you know follow false prophets.

When a discussion is made for the purpose of contention instead of understanding, the Holy Spirit cannot dwell.

So, when Jesus cast out the money changers, he did not have the Holy Spirit? Again, I disagree. These threads are made just for the sake of contention, they are made to bring out the truth. They are made to show points that might someday, with the help of the TRUE God, lead you away from a dangerous false church

You mentioned something about the “persecution card” or some such. Maybe you are right that I’m sounding like stop-beating-on-the-persecuted whine. I admit, I am feeling persecuted today. So, I need to get over myself before I come back here.

No one is here to persecute you. I know it is difficult to be in a false church with so much against you. We truly are your friends. We feel called to fight hard against Satan and against false churches.

 

[why_me]

I am sorry twopekinguys, today is not a good day for me. I am going to stay away from this forum today because I feel like Christian charity has left this place. This is the 2nd thread I commented on today that I just can’t seem to get a point across.

When a discussion is made for the purpose of contention instead of understanding, the Holy Spirit cannot dwell. This is teaching that is shared by all churches especially in the Catholic and LDS churches who profess to be the one true church. When I find myself unconsciously contributing to contention like I have here, I have to stop.

.

Christian charity is hardly never a part of the non-catholic religion section. This section is the least charitable on the forums. And some individuals make contention by use of words a profession. And this occurs on threads that deal with different religions and not just the mormon threads.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Christian charity is hardly never a part of the non-catholic religion section. This section is the least charitable on the forums. And some individuals make contention by use of words a profession. And this occurs on threads that deal with a different religions and not just the mormon threads.

There is no need to play the LDS victim. No one is uncharitable here and I have seen little that warrants that accusation. I have had mormons here call me a liar, mock a very difficult time in my life, make fun of me for that difficult time, and call me names. I have seen mormons do the same to other Catholics. You make this board seem like Missouri when the Mormons cause a war then claim to be victims.

Catholics here simply refuse to give in to a false prophet and false Church. We are doing as Christ commanded. Under my old nickname, I had a mormon who did not post much tell me that because our questions and positions, he was leaving the LDS Church and was thinking of looking into the Catholic Church. If we work hard, we can lead people from the false prophets and into truth. It might get testy at times, but Jesus told us to prepare for battle.

 

[twopekinguys]

you did not answer this question

Dodgeball!! dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge!

 

[twopekinguys]

Christian charity is hardly never a part of the non-catholic religion section. This section is the least charitable on the forums. And some individuals make contention by use of words a profession. And this occurs on threads that deal with different religions and not just the mormon threads.

I’m glad you admit to the error of your ways.

You’re right about one thing though. Christian charity is hardly never part of the non -catholic religion section.

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

I’m glad you admit to the error of your ways.

You’re right about one thing though. Christian charity is hardly never part of the non -catholic religion section.

 

[why_me]

I disagree. Just because we are adamanet about the falsehoods of the LDS faith does not mean are not charitable. One of the most charitable things a person can do is tell a friend when they are wrong. Charioty was never meant to mean standing by while people you know follow false prophets.

No one is here to persecute you. I know it is difficult to be in a false church with so much against you. We truly are your friends. We feel called to fight hard against Satan and against false churches.

Strange, that you do not see just how rude this post is and just how uncharitable it is. First you call his faith false. And then you say that you are being charitable by doing so. Then you call the leader of the lds church false. And yet, you claim that this is not persecution because he is in a false church. Then you claim that you are his friend and call his church a church of satan.

I think that I need to laugh just a little more:

And this is catholic charity? Gosh, I hope not.

 

[scipio337]

Scipio, that’s the point in the “pretty close” quote. That, unlike your view that Mormons believe that JFK is a lizard god living in his lizard kingdom, it’s not THAT different - it is actually “pretty close”.

Of course, you don’t have to believe it.

Pinay, I apologize it came across that the “lizard” thing is a LDS belief, that was not my intent. It was simply meant to be an analogy. No offense was meant.

The issue of who God is to our faiths show to me that there is much more than “pretty close”.

The LDS belief is that we are the same “kind” as God, but lesser by degree. God is eternal as we are eternal, through the “preexistence”. We are made of the same spiritual stuff.

The Orthodox belief is that God is the infinite creator, and we are the finite creation, ontologically different than we created beings, and always will be.

The two can’t be reconciled as a difference of appearance. I would say it is a difference of the very nature

From an LDS source (see, no “bias” here, whyme!) :

The doctrine of theosis presupposes that there is a fundamental distinction between uncreated being and created being. God, that is, the three divine persons who are the one God, are understood to be uncreated and eternal. God always has been divine and always will be divine. Human persons, on the other hand, are created from nothing—creatio ex nihilo. They are forever dependent on God for existence. Thus, the divine nature, the nature of God, is fundamentally different from human nature, the nature of human persons. In fact, one can speak of an ontological divide or chasm separating the two: the former is unoriginate, the latter is originate.

The doctrine of exaltation presupposes that God is of the same species as human persons. There is no distinction between uncreated and created beings or persons since all persons, divine as well as human, are uncreated. In other words, intelligence, the core or essence of every person (whether divine or human) is self-existent and eternal, uncreated and uncreatable. Through the process of spirit birth, intelligences are clothed by divine parents with spirit bodies and become autonomous, conscious selves. And just as with human children in relation to their human parents, the spirit children of divine parents possess the innate capacity, as a fact of their spirit birth, to progress and grow up into the likeness of their divine parents.

maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/papers/?paperID=7&chapterID=63

 

[twopekinguys]

Strange, that you do not see just how rude this post is and just how uncharitable it is. First you call his faith false. And then you say that you are being charitable by doing so. Then you call the leader of the lds church false. And yet, you claim that this is not persecution because he is in a false church. Then you claim that you are his friend and call his church a church of satan.

I think that I need to laugh just a little more:

And this is catholic charity? Gosh, I hope not.

Facts are facts, not persecution. You really should know the difference by now.

Truth can be hard to take sometimes. But the truth is still just that truth.

If you want to feel wounded by the truth, that is your issue.

 

[why_me]

Facts are facts, not persecution. You really should know the difference by now.

Truth can be hard to take sometimes. But the truth is still just that truth.

If you want to feel wounded by the truth, that is your issue.

Well, I suppose that if this were a baptist forum the baptists can also say to you:

I disagree. Just because we are adamanet about the falsehoods of the catholic faith does not mean we are not charitable. One of the most charitable things a person can do is tell a friend when they are wrong. Charioty was never meant to mean standing by while people you know follow false popes.

No one is here to persecute you. I know it is difficult to be in a false church with so much against you. We truly are your friends. We feel called to fight hard against Satan and against false churches.

Doesn’t that sound charitable? I do think that catholics on this section do not see just how uncatholic their posts are. And they certainly are not charitable.

 

[twopekinguys]

Well, I suppose that if this were a baptist forum the baptists can also say to you:

I disagree. Just because we are adamanet about the falsehoods of the catholic faith does not mean we are not charitable. One of the most charitable things a person can do is tell a friend when they are wrong. Charioty was never meant to mean standing by while people you know follow false popes.

No one is here to persecute you. I know it is difficult to be in a false church with so much against you. We truly are your friends. We feel called to fight hard against Satan and against false churches.

Doesn’t that sound charitable? I do think that catholics on this section do not see just how uncatholic their posts are. And they certainly are not charitable.

We’re not talking about baptists, and we’re not talking about the baptist board.

Quit trying to deflect. It is really getting old.

Truth is truth, there is no way around it. Many times, the truth is harsh, but it is still the truth.

It is a charitable endeavor to show people the errors of their teachings.

I have a bit of a newsflash for you. Life is not one big warm fuzzy or chorus of kumbaya afer another.