Mormon Church changes to appeal to millenials?

[Lemuel]

Sorry to hear all of that. You sound much more intelligent than me. I stuck with it for almost 60 years. At least I’m not on their rolls anymore. But I do have one stake president and a Seventy who still check up on me.

 

[NeuroTypical]

The Joseph Smith papers is a project carefully crafted to tell the truth in a very dishonest and deceptive way. It’s very cleverly done. It’s just another attempt at lying for the Lord.

Dishonesty and deceptiveness? Lying? What on earth are you talking about Lemuel? It’s a scholarly project to find, digitize, and publish everything. To the public, or anyone else who wants to see. For free.

What possible grounds could you have for such accusations?

 

[Jim-Eustachius]

I guess people like those two gentlemen who formerly were Mormons feel that there isn’t going to be full transparency, that the “everything” you speak of is only everything they want to show you.

History can be subjective when you only search for particular interpretations.

After reading a bit about the history of Mormonism which was motivated by my rereading of a Sherlock Holmes novel a while back which didn’t have a particularly pleasant view of the group I have noticed that there certainly are some questionable events, for example the Mountain Meadows Massacre. I’m curious to see how much they would report on that event and the extent of its support by church leaders.

-With the kindest regards, James.

 

[Horton]

If the records exist, yes. They’re probably already up there

Two things: 1 - What if the records completely debunk the LDS, would that record continue to “exist”? 2 - Where is “up there”? Would that be the LDS office tower where things go that they never want seen again?

 

[NeuroTypical]

I have noticed that there certainly are some questionable events, for example the Mountain Meadows Massacre. I’m curious to see how much they would report on that event and the extent of its support by church leaders.

Again, hi Jim, no need to refer to us Mormons as “they” - I’m standing right here. I’m reasonably certain I’m not the only LDS reading this thread.
But to your point - how do we report on the horrible embarrassing tragedy known as the Mtn Meadows Massacre? By issuing a public apology, writing a book about it, erecting a monument at the site, and talking openly and honestly about it. Take a look:

150th Anniversary of Mountain Meadows Massacre

The Mountain Meadows Massacre

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[NeuroTypical]

Two things: 1 - What if the records completely debunk the LDS, would that record continue to “exist”?

You’d have to give me an example of what you’re talking about. I haven’t seen any such thing, owned by the church, or in any of the critical materials that have been produced since the very start.

2 - Where is “up there”? Would that be the LDS office tower where things go that they never want seen again?

I’m talking about the Joseph Smith Paper’s project. Someone asked “what about this or that record”? I answered “they’re probably already up there”. Meaning, published in the JSPP website. In the past (on this board, I believe), someone dared me to look something up, and I did, and posted the link. Yes, when you have a scholarly interest in something, and follow accepted scholarly publishing practice, you publish everything without comment - no matter what you personally feel about the evidence.

I mean, you don’t need me to do your homework for you. If you wonder if this or that court record, or this or that lawsuit, or this or that news article has been published, go to the website and see for yourself.

As for the notion of stuff going into some secret archive never to be seen again, well, it seems to be human nature to want sensationalism and secrecy. Reference all the bad supernatural thriller movies that start in the Vatican archives, and end with demons assassinating the president (or whatever).

Again, I’m happy to see the Vatican worked with historical preservation and digitizing groups from BYU to get Vatican stuff published. And I’m happy to see everything my church is doing to publish historical documents.

And again, I’d like to ask Lemuel what the heck he’s thinking, accusing us of dishonesty, deceptiveness, and lying - because we publish historical documents for the world to see.

 

[NeuroTypical]

In the past (on this board, I believe), someone dared me to look something up, and I did, and posted the link.

Hooray for CAF’s post download/search functionality!

Mormon-evangelical detente? Non-Catholic Religions

Hi iepuras, you may be interested to note that the existing records of the incident are contained in this website I keep mentioning. Take a look: Journal, March-September 1838, page 30.[bolding mine] I do hereby prefer the following Charges against Oliver Cowdery, which consists of nine in number. 1st For persecuting the bretheren, by urging on vex atious lawsuits against the Bretheren and thus dirstressing the inocent.53 2nd For seeking to destroy the Character of Pres. Joseph Smith Jr…

 

[Pattylt]

I did a search on the JS website you linked too and did a search for arrest records. Everything that came up was post LDS establishment. Would you think that records of his arrest(s) pre LDS time would be included or is the project just concerned with LDS history?

My search may have been incomplete so I’m not ruling out that it’s there somewhere. Just that I was unable to find it. It may also be that I need an alternate search term. I’ll try again later.

Also, JS wrote several versions of his initial vision. Do you know, off the top of your head, if all versions are in there. You don’t have to search for me. I’ll look into it if you don’t know.
Thanks.

 

[Lemuel]

Dishonesty and deceptiveness? Lying? What on earth are you talking about Lemuel? It’s a scholarly project to find, digitize, and publish everything. To the public, or anyone else who wants to see. For free.

I’ve been out of the Mormonite church for about five years. I admit, I got the Joseph Smith papers and the Mormonite Church essays confused. The Mormonite Church essays, which don’t even claim authorship, are riddled with deceit. I can’t claim the same for the Joseph Smith papers. I’m doubtful that they will publish everything that is damning against Joe. Withholding information is equally deceptive, but I’ll wait and see what they come up with before I make a judgment on that. I know it’s an ongoing project and I’ve read very little of it.

 

[Horton]

You’d have to give me an example of what you’re talking about. I haven’t seen any such thing, owned by the church, or in any of the critical materials that have been produced since the very start.

It is well known that the LDS has hidden documents that have been less than supportive of the truth of the LDS. Maybe you have forgotten Mark Hoffman, but I have not. One of the early books I read about the LDS. Many of the documents the LDS bought from Hoffman were stored away in a secret vault.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/777okn/the_church_has_over_450_mark_hoffman_forgeries_in

As for the notion of stuff going into some secret archive never to be seen again, well, it seems to be human nature to want sensationalism and secrecy. Reference all the bad supernatural thriller movies that start in the Vatican archives, and end with demons assassinating the president (or whatever).

That are works of fiction. You can hardly compare the Vatican’s 2000 years of worldwide documents and historical artifacts with LDS less than 200 year and a few state’s worth of documents, forgeries and all.

And I’m happy to see everything my church is doing to publish historical documents.

I am happy the LDS are publishing historical documents. However, I highly doubt they will publish EVERY historical document, leaving out those that are not positive to the LDS. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior…….

 

[Jim-Eustachius]

That was a good read, thanks for that.

-Kindest regards, James.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The LDS leaders have a history of hiding Mormon history that is not positive in every way about Mormon historic events and people.

And yes, there is a Church archive, of historical documents and artifacts. From 1972 to 1982 Church historian Leonard Arrington was the director of the Church History Department. He wrote historical publications, of real, scholarly nature, that were received with increasing animosity by “the brethren”. Complaints ranging from, not censoring out BY’s tobacco use to allowing the Church historical archives to be too open to non-Mormon scholars. In short, the Twelve wanted the historian’s publications to be routed through the Church’s Correlation Committee. Arrington balked at this, say essentially that the facts of historical events can’t be voted on by “the brethren”.

In 1982 Arrington was quietly released as Church Historian and the open access to the LDS Church historical archives was closed, and remain closed.

It’s naive to think the JS papers are not being curated, IMO. The LDS leaders have displayed an interest in displaying only positive, correlated, things about Mormon history, at all times.

 

[Jerusha]

Negative events in LDS history are generally not publicized by the LDS church until non-Mormons have widely publicized them. Mountain Meadows, Masonic roots, Joseph Smith’s writings, Fawn Brodie’s book, D. Michael Quinn’s books, etc.

 

[Lemuel]

Transparency is the last thing they want.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Also, JS wrote several versions of his initial vision. Do you know, off the top of your head, if all versions are in there. You don’t have to search for me. I’ll look into it if you don’t know.
Thanks.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/site/accounts-of-the-first-vision

 

[Pattylt]

Thank you!

 

[RebeccaJ]

I think they have shown a continued interest in controlling the historical narrative. Not just their own narrative, but that of all religions.

 

[RebeccaJ]

That whole piece is a defense of the Mormon actions.

BY sent men to wipe out the evidence of this crime. They did not bury the dead, but scattered the bodies across the landscape, so that they would decay and disappear, hopefully by animal scavengers. That is where the cover up of the MMM began, with the goal of protecting the murderers from justice, and that protection remains in place.

Protect the perpetrators, call them good men, make no attempt at cooperating with justice. That has always been and still is the tactic that Mormon leaders take.

Making this speech at the crime scene is obscene.

 

[Gertabelle]

Perhaps you’d be interested in the Joseph Smith Papers project, which aims to digitize and publish every single document in existence created by Joseph Smith or his staff or contemporaries, including documents received.

I was curious to see what the library would include of the Egyptian papyrus pieces and Smith’s Book of Abraham. It’s all there.

I just did a lengthy read of Smith’s “translation” of the Book of Abraham – basically some Egyptian writings on papyrus that he bought in 1835. Smith didn’t have access to the Rosetta stone scholarship (which is how linguists figured out how to translate hieroglyphics), so he made up what he believed was the translation.

He used his same “translation” expertise to determine that the four mummies he was forced to purchase along with the pieces of papyrus were famous biblical persons.

The pieces of papyrus were later translated by actual scholars and determined to be burial records and rites of several specific people in ancient Egypt.

Reading the way the LDS just sort of glosses over that little inconvenience is very enlightening. “Yeah, it wasn’t what Joseph Smith said, but that’s OK because he wasn’t really translating that document so much as using it as a means to receive inspiration about another book God wanted him to write.”

Sheesh. I could never be LDS – I’d have to check my brain at the door!

I’m glad they included all those Egyptian documents in their library. That is excellent indeed. But they show their own hand in how they deal with truth in how they ignore it – those Egyptian documents are not in any way at all what Joseph Smith said they were. The LDS choose to ignore this and put a new “spin” on the story to save face.

I also read the article linked in the OP. Personally, I don’t think changes to service times and missionary experiences are gonna cut it in the long run. We live in an information age, and there is just too much information out there to discredit Joseph Smith.

I can see the appeal of the LDS to those want the culture of community in this life. I can also see how the threat of being cut off from your community keeps people in line. But for many millenials, I think the intellectual gymnastics may not prove to be worth the effort.

Just my two cents… well, maybe more like $1.02.

 

[Lemuel]

Do they include the part about how Brig made out John D Lee to be his sacrificial lamb?