Mormon Claims

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That is not really true. They have 11 friends and family who saw it with their “Spiritual Eyes”
The 3 Witnesses said that they saw the plates by the “power of God” and not the power of man. Then 8 Witnesses made no such claim, and said that they saw the plates and hefted them.

Please show where all 11 witnesses claimed to have seen the plates with their “spiritual eyes”.
 
This is false. Latter-day Saints firmly believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
No, they don;t They believe that a different-than-the-Bible Jesus is one of the sons (Lucifer being the other) of a different-than-the-Bible God.
 
The Bishops are the successors to the Apostle. Each Bishop can show a line of authority to an Apostle.

We have not invented all the offices that Mormons have
 
The 3 Witnesses said that they saw the plates by the “power of God” and not the power of man. Then 8 Witnesses made no such claim, and said that they saw the plates and hefted them.

Please show where all 11 witnesses claimed to have seen the plates with their “spiritual eyes”.
They saw with their Spiritual eyes…and the 11 only felt a bag. And they were 11 friends and family. No exactly unbaised witnesses. That is fact
 
The Bishops are the successors to the Apostle. Each Bishop can show a line of authority to an Apostle.

We have not invented all the offices that Mormons have
So they are not considered apostles. Thank you.

What is the line of authority, to “an Apostle”, of the Archbishop of Los Angeles, for example?
 
They saw with their Spiritual eyes…and the 11 only felt a bag. And they were 11 friends and family. No exactly unbaised witnesses. That is fact
Please show where all 11 witnesses claimed to have seen the plates with their “spiritual eyes”.
 
I’m missing something. If Christ said that this was going to be His Church and then said that it would never be defeated; then the Church of Jesus,founded on the Rock, Peter, is the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ. Maybe the Church has been wounded in the past, present and probably in the future, but never defeated. Jesus finds strength in weakness. We’ll know the reasons of history one day and it will be glorious.👍👍👍
 
Please show where all 11 witnesses claimed to have seen the plates with their “spiritual eyes”.
I will not play your games, Cap. I have already shown where Martin Harris said they saw the plates with Spiritual Eyes.

Grant Palmer is a Mormon Scholar and still a member of the Church…According to Grant Palmer, the Book of Mormon witnesses had a “nineteenth-century magical mindset” rather than “a rationalist perspective.” They believed in what was called “second sight. Traditionally, this included the ability to see spirits and their dwelling places within the local hills and elsewhere.” A number of the witnesses possessed and used seer stones; Oliver Cowdery was a rodsman. As Tufts University professor John L. Brooke has observed, many of the earliest Mormons were “very much attuned to the supernatural powers of witchcraft.”[9] “Far removed from our own modern empiricism, the world view of the witnesses is difficult for us to grasp,” and thus it is less impressive that “three signatories to the Book of Mormon saw and heard an angel.”

Martin Harris was said to have stated that the Eight Witnesses never saw the plates, and “hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it.”[13] Although Harris continued to testify to the truth of the Book of Mormon even when he was estranged from the church, at least during the early years of the movement, he “seems to have repeatedly admitted the internal, subjective nature of his visionary experience.”

Joseph Smith later impugned the integrity of at least four of the Witnesses before they left or were expelled from the Church: “Such characters as McLellin, John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, are too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them.”

So, even Joseph Smith said they were not honest men. Yet, you want to bank your belief on those “witnesses?” All who were family, friends, who had, according to Joseph, were dishonest. That appears to be a pretty flimsy dock to stand on

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses
 
Martin Harris was one of the Three Witnesses, and therefore saw the plates “by the power of God”. The 8 Witnesses made no such claim. Thanks for the Wikipedia article though. It states:

"Unlike the Three Witnesses, the Eight testified that they both saw and handled the plates. Another difference is that the Eight testified they were shown the plates by Joseph Smith, Jr. rather than by an angel as had the Three Witnesses. "
 
Martin Harris was one of the Three Witnesses, and therefore saw the plates “by the power of God”. The 8 Witnesses made no such claim. Thanks for the Wikipedia article though. It states:

"Unlike the Three Witnesses, the Eight testified that they both saw and handled the plates. Another difference is that the Eight testified they were shown the plates by Joseph Smith, Jr. rather than by an angel as had the Three Witnesses. "
yes…it also says:

Grant Palmer is a Mormon Scholar and still a member of the Church…According to Grant Palmer, the Book of Mormon witnesses had a “nineteenth-century magical mindset” rather than “a rationalist perspective.” They believed in what was called “second sight. Traditionally, this included the ability to see spirits and their dwelling places within the local hills and elsewhere.” A number of the witnesses possessed and used seer stones; Oliver Cowdery was a rodsman. As Tufts University professor John L. Brooke has observed, many of the earliest Mormons were “very much attuned to the supernatural powers of witchcraft.”[9] “Far removed from our own modern empiricism, the world view of the witnesses is difficult for us to grasp,” and thus it is less impressive that “three signatories to the Book of Mormon saw and heard an angel.”

Martin Harris was said to have stated that the Eight Witnesses never saw the plates, and “hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it.”[13] Although Harris continued to testify to the truth of the Book of Mormon even when he was estranged from the church, at least during the early years of the movement, he “seems to have repeatedly admitted the internal, subjective nature of his visionary experience.”

Joseph Smith later impugned the integrity of at least four of the Witnesses before they left or were expelled from the Church: “Such characters as McLellin, John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, are too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them.”

Like I said…horrible witnesses and not witness I would ever hang my hat on. Of course, thats all you have…so you have no choice. But I would tear them up on the witness stand.

Even Joseph (if you want to believe what Joseph ever said) said they were not honest men.

But, like I said, thats all you have…dishonest family and friends who are your best witnesses
 
I’m missing something. If Christ said that this was going to be His Church and then said that it would never be defeated; then the Church of Jesus,founded on the Rock, Peter, is the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ. Maybe the Church has been wounded in the past, present and probably in the future, but never defeated. Jesus finds strength in weakness. We’ll know the reasons of history one day and it will be glorious.👍👍👍
The Lord allowed the Saints (members of the Church of Christ) to be defeated!

"As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them Dan 7:21
 
The Lord allowed the Saints (members of the Church of Christ) to be defeated!

"As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them Dan 7:21
We have discussed before hoe you took that verse out of context. Quote Dan all you want, it is irrelevant. Jesus said the Church would never be defeated.

You can follow Joe Smith. I will follow Jesus…the TRUE one…
 
yes…it also says:

Grant Palmer is a Mormon Scholar and still a member of the Church…According to Grant Palmer, the Book of Mormon witnesses had a “nineteenth-century magical mindset” rather than “a rationalist perspective.” They believed in what was called “second sight. Traditionally, this included the ability to see spirits and their dwelling places within the local hills and elsewhere.” A number of the witnesses possessed and used seer stones; Oliver Cowdery was a rodsman. As Tufts University professor John L. Brooke has observed, many of the earliest Mormons were “very much attuned to the supernatural powers of witchcraft.”[9] “Far removed from our own modern empiricism, the world view of the witnesses is difficult for us to grasp,” and thus it is less impressive that “three signatories to the Book of Mormon saw and heard an angel.”

Martin Harris was said to have stated that the Eight Witnesses never saw the plates, and “hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it.”[13] Although Harris continued to testify to the truth of the Book of Mormon even when he was estranged from the church, at least during the early years of the movement, he “seems to have repeatedly admitted the internal, subjective nature of his visionary experience.”

Joseph Smith later impugned the integrity of at least four of the Witnesses before they left or were expelled from the Church: “Such characters as McLellin, John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, are too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them.”

Like I said…horrible witnesses and not witness I would ever hang my hat on. Of course, thats all you have…so you have no choice. But I would tear them up on the witness stand.

Even Joseph (if you want to believe what Joseph ever said) said they were not honest men.

But, like I said, thats all you have…dishonest family and friends who are your best witnesses
"Beginning with the first edition of 1830, the Book of Mormon has generally contained two sets of testimonies—the “Testimony of Three Witnesses” and the “Testimony of Eight Witnesses.” When Joseph Smith first obtained the gold plates, he was told to show them to no one. As translation progressed, he and those assisting him learned, both in the pages of the Book and by additional revelation, that three special witnesses would know, by the power of God, “that these things are true” and that several besides himself would see the plates and testify to their existence (Ether 5:2-4; 2 Ne. 27:12-13; D&C 5:11-13). The testimonies of the witnesses affirm that these things occurred.

The witnesses were men known for truthfulness and sobriety. Though each of the Three Witnesses was eventually excommunicated from the Church (two returned), none ever denied or retracted his published testimony. Each reaffirmed at every opportunity the veracity of his testimony and the reality of what he had seen and experienced.

A June 1829 revelation confirmed that Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris would be the Three Witnesses (D&C 17). Soon thereafter, they, with Joseph Smith, retired to the woods near Fayette, New York, and prayed for the promised divine manifestation. The “Testimony of Three Witnesses” summarizes the supernatural event that followed, when an angel appeared and showed them the plates and engravings and they heard the Lord declare that the Book of Mormon was “translated by the gift and power of God.” They said that the same divine voice “commanded us that we should bear record of it.”

Joseph Smith’s mother later recounted Joseph’s great relief at no longer being the sole witness of the divine experiences of the restoration (see Law of Witnesses). That others had also seen an angel and “will have to testify to the truth of what I have said for now they know for themselves” relieved him of a great burden (Lucy Smith Preliminary Manuscript, Church Archives).

Soon afterward, at the Smith farm in New York, eight others were allowed to view and handle the plates: Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, Jr., John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith, Sr., Hyrum Smith, and Samuel H. Smith. Their signed “Testimony of Eight Witnesses” reports that Joseph Smith showed these eight men the metal plates, which they “hefted” while turning the individual “leaves” and examining the engravings of “curious workmanship.” In 1829 the word curious carried the meaning of the Latin word for “careful,” suggesting that the plates were wrought “with care and art.” Five of these Eight Witnesses remained solidly with the Church; John Whitmer was excommunicated in 1838, and his brother Jacob Whitmer and brother-in-law Hiram Page then became inactive.

Most of these eleven witnesses were members of the large Smith and Whitmer families—families who had assisted in guarding and in translating the ancient record. Not surprisingly, other family members reported indirect contact with the plates and the translation. Young William Smith once helped his brother Joseph carry the plates wrapped in a work frock. Joseph’s wife Emma Smith felt the pliable plates as she dusted around the cloth-covered record on her husband’s translating table. Burdened with daily chores and caring for her family and visitors working on the translation, Mother Whitmer (Peter Whitmer, Sr.'s, wife) was shown the plates by a heavenly messenger to assure her that the work was of God."

lightplanet.com/mormons/book_of_mormon/witnesses.html
 
Sorry Even, your witnesses have already be debunked

Grant Palmer is a Mormon Scholar and still a member of the Church…According to Grant Palmer, the Book of Mormon witnesses had a “nineteenth-century magical mindset” rather than “a rationalist perspective.” They believed in what was called “second sight. Traditionally, this included the ability to see spirits and their dwelling places within the local hills and elsewhere.” A number of the witnesses possessed and used seer stones; Oliver Cowdery was a rodsman. As Tufts University professor John L. Brooke has observed, many of the earliest Mormons were “very much attuned to the supernatural powers of witchcraft.”[9] “Far removed from our own modern empiricism, the world view of the witnesses is difficult for us to grasp,” and thus it is less impressive that “three signatories to the Book of Mormon saw and heard an angel.”

Martin Harris was said to have stated that the Eight Witnesses never saw the plates, and “hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it.”[13] Although Harris continued to testify to the truth of the Book of Mormon even when he was estranged from the church, at least during the early years of the movement, he “seems to have repeatedly admitted the internal, subjective nature of his visionary experience.”

Joseph Smith later impugned the integrity of at least four of the Witnesses before they left or were expelled from the Church: “Such characters as McLellin, John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, are too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them.”

Like I said…horrible witnesses and not witness I would ever hang my hat on. Of course, thats all you have…so you have no choice. But I would tear them up on the witness stand.

Even Joseph (if you want to believe what Joseph ever said) said they were not honest men.

But, like I said, thats all you have…dishonest family and friends who are your best witnesses
 
…continued…

Martin Harris, a prosperous farmer of Palmyra, New York, who had long sought a religion fulfilling biblical prophecy, assisted with the translation previous to his experience as a witness. In 1828 he spent two months transcribing as Joseph Smith dictated the first major segment of Book of Mormon translation—116 handwritten pages. After Martin lost these pages, he wrote no more for the Prophet, but he later financed the publication of the book.

Oliver Cowdery was the main scribe for the Book of Mormon. A schoolteacher, he learned of the gold plates and the translation while boarding with Joseph Smith’s parents near Palmyra, New York. In early April 1829, Oliver walked from the Smith home to harmony, pennsylvania, where Joseph Smith was translating. On the way Oliver visited his friend David Whitmer, who also developed an intense interest in the new scripture. When persecution increased in Harmony, David came as requested and moved Joseph and Oliver to his family farm near Fayette (more than 100 miles away), about June 1.

Joseph Smith later recalled the insistent pleading of Harris, Whitmer, and Cowdery after they learned that three would be permitted to see the plates. The June 1829 revelation confirmed that they would be the Three Witnesses—and that they would then testify both from firsthand knowledge and “by the power of God” to the end “that my servant Joseph Smith, Jr., may not be destroyed” (D&C 17:3-4). Of the perhaps 200 recorded interviews with the Three Witnesses, a significant percentage stress the spiritual intensity of the witnesses as they described the angel and the plates. By themselves, the Prophet’s reputation and claims were vulnerable, but the testimony of additional reputable, solemn witnesses who shared a divine experience added credibility.

Lucy Smith’s autobiography records the overwhelming gratitude of the Three Witnesses as they returned to the Whitmer house after sharing this experience. Joseph Smith’s own history gives the fullest details of the event: repeated prayers followed by a vision given simultaneously to the Prophet, Cowdery, and Whitmer, and soon after a nearly identical vision experienced by the Prophet with Harris. According to Joseph, the intense glory of God enveloped the natural surroundings, and in this divine light the angel appeared, carefully displayed the plates, specifically counseled David Whitmer—the only one of the three who did not eventually return to the Church—to endure to the end, and the voice of God declared the book divine (HC 1:54-56).

By early 1838, disagreements on Church policies brought disaffection and excommunication for each of the Three Witnesses, and they separated; Cowdery died in 1850, Harris in 1875, and Whitmer in 1888. Throughout their lives, each witness freely answered questions about his firsthand experience with the angel and the plates. Obviously not relying on Joseph Smith’s account, which was not written until the months following their excommunication, each spoke spontaneously and independently; yet the details harmonized with each other and with Joseph Smith’s history.

The alienation of the witnesses from the Church stemmed largely from conflicts regarding authority. After receiving revelation, the Three Witnesses felt they shared equally with Joseph Smith in foundational experiences, and their certainty about a past vision contributed to their inflexibility concerning future revelations. They sided with the Prophet’s critics who reacted negatively to the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society (see Kirtland Economy), and they opposed Joseph Smith’s vigorous doctrinal and administrative leadership. After their excommunication, each felt deep rejection, resulting, predictably, in their harsh criticisms of Church leadership. Even in these circumstances, each of the Three Witnesses continued to maintain vigorously the authenticity of their published testimony. None expressed any doubt as to what they had testified. Both Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris returned to the Church at the end of their lives; David Whitmer retained religious independence but to the end aggressively defended the Book of Mormon.

Skeptics have discounted the “Testimony of Three Witnesses” on the ground of collusion or deception. Yet each of the three was a respected and independent member of non-Mormon society, active in his community. Their lives, fully documented, clearly demonstrate their honesty and intelligence. David Whitmer repeatedly reacted against charges of possible “delusion.” To one skeptic, he responded: “Of course we were in the spirit when we had the view…but we were in the body also, and everything was as natural to us, as it is at any time” (Anderson, p. 87). Perhaps their later alienation makes them even more credible as witnesses, for no collusion could have withstood their years of separation from the Church and from each other.

The testimonies of the Three and Eight Witnesses balance the supernatural and the natural, the one stressing the angel and heavenly voice, the other the existence of a tangible record on gold plates. To the end of their lives, each of the Three said he had seen the plates, and each of the Eight insisted that he had handled them. Most of the Eight and all of the Three Witnesses reiterated their Book of Mormon testimonies just before death. Together with Joseph Smith they fulfill Nephi’s prophecy: “They shall testify to the truth of the book and the things therein” (2 Ne. 27:12).

lightplanet.com/mormons/book_of_mormon/witnesses.html
 
I’ve been reading about this exact thing in “The Creation of the BOM: A Historical Inquiry” by LaMar Peterson.

This controversy, as it seems, continued even after the church had moved to Utah: “Some of the witnesses of the BOM, who handled the plates and conversed with hte angels of God, were afterwards left to doubt and to disbelieve that they had ever seen an angel. One of the Quorum of the Twelve–a young man full of fiath and good works, prayed, and the vision of his mind was opened, and the angel of God came and laid the plates before him, and he saw and handled themm, and saw the angel, and conversed with him as he would with one of his friends; but after all this, he was left to doubt, and plunged into apostacy, and has continued to contend against the work.” (Brigham Young, JOD 7:160)

I can’t find the person he’s talking about here, but in 1859, Martin Harries said: “The plates were kept from the sight of the world, and no one, save Oliver Cowdery, myself, Joseph Smith jr., and David Whitmer, ever saw them.” (Tiffany’s Monthly, no 4, Aug 1859)

This basically undercuts all of the others’ testimony because if the witnesses can’t tell the same story, who do you believe?

On a related note, it seems that using peepstones wasn’t only common in the Palmyra area to discover lost treasure, it was also common in the early church, too. Apparently, Hirum Page had one and received revelations through it, too, about which Smith received a revelation (D&C 28:11) that denounced them as from Satan and not God.

That begs the question: if one of the people Mormons choose to believe about the plates can be so deceived, what part of their story do you believe?
 
Sorry Even, as I said, your witnesses have already be debunked

Grant Palmer is a Mormon Scholar and still a member of the Church…According to Grant Palmer, the Book of Mormon witnesses had a “nineteenth-century magical mindset” rather than “a rationalist perspective.” They believed in what was called “second sight. Traditionally, this included the ability to see spirits and their dwelling places within the local hills and elsewhere.” A number of the witnesses possessed and used seer stones; Oliver Cowdery was a rodsman. As Tufts University professor John L. Brooke has observed, many of the earliest Mormons were “very much attuned to the supernatural powers of witchcraft.”[9] “Far removed from our own modern empiricism, the world view of the witnesses is difficult for us to grasp,” and thus it is less impressive that “three signatories to the Book of Mormon saw and heard an angel.”

Martin Harris was said to have stated that the Eight Witnesses never saw the plates, and “hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it.”[13] Although Harris continued to testify to the truth of the Book of Mormon even when he was estranged from the church, at least during the early years of the movement, he “seems to have repeatedly admitted the internal, subjective nature of his visionary experience.”

Joseph Smith later impugned the integrity of at least four of the Witnesses before they left or were expelled from the Church: “Such characters as McLellin, John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, are too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them.”

Like I said…horrible witnesses and not witness I would ever hang my hat on. Of course, thats all you have…so you have no choice. But I would tear them up on the witness stand.

Even Joseph (if you want to believe what Joseph ever said) said they were not honest men.

But, like I said, thats all you have…dishonest family and friends who are your best witnesses
 
… David Whitmer retained religious independence but to the end aggressively defended the Book of Mormon.
The problem here is that in his book, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Whitmer wrote: "If you believe my testimony to the BOM; if you believe that God spoke to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to ‘separate myself from among the LDS, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them.’ "

Further, Whitmer said that the church had fallen into error as of 1838. So what, then, are you to believe from David Whitmer?
 
The problem here is that in his book, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Whitmer wrote: "If you believe my testimony to the BOM; if you believe that God spoke to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to ‘separate myself from among the LDS, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them.’ "

Further, Whitmer said that the church had fallen into error as of 1838. So what, then, are you to believe from David Whitmer?
That is my point. If the witnesses to the Book of Mormon are the foundation you rest on, it is a foundation of sand.
 
We have discussed before hoe you took that verse out of context. Quote Dan all you want, it is irrelevant. Jesus said the Church would never be defeated.

You can follow Joe Smith. I will follow Jesus…the TRUE one…
It is not out of context. The Lord reiterates the same thing in Rev 13:7, which is even more clear…the Lords alows all kindreds, and tongues and nations to have power.

“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”

Just read the entire chapter 13 and you will see the context!
 
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