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And the reason for this is that I frankly believe there were plates, something Joseph had made for him somewhere along the line. The words of the witnessess do all seem to indicate that.
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why_me
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I have no idea what you are talking about. It does not matter if Joseph Smith called them every name in the book. He was not nervous that they were going to spill the beans because maybe there were no beans to spill. See my point?
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why_me
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Then these eight witness were a little stupid. And when would Joseph have time to make plates? Then we have the problem that the 3 witnesses saw a vision.
THE TESTIMONY OF THREE WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man.** And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. **Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris
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why_me
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I think that I have proved the correct prophecies. Should I do it again?
Okay, here I go:
jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_prophecies.shtml
Any comments?
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Returning_Home
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Please don’t drag the Bible down to the level of the BOM. No, we don’t have all of the people, places, and events 100% verified, and probably far less than that, but I can go to Jerusalem, the Garden of Gethsemane, Rome, and a hundred of other places mentioned in the text.
Can you go to even one place unique to the BOM? Bountiful? Ammonihah? Jershon? Omner? How about the Hill Cumorah? Surely we know where that one is. After all, some 2.5 million people died there so there’s likely still evidence laying all over the place, even still, right below the surface of the ground, right?
Yes, we Christians have faith that Jesus was who he claimed to be and that takes some doing, but with the BOM, you have nothing of the the sort. We know what “Reformed Egyptian” looks like, yet there’s never been one single example of it found anywhere in either the New or Old Worlds. There’s never been one single example of ancient Hebrew being found in the New World either, has there?
Since the BOM is supposed to be the ‘most correct book on earth,’ there should be evidence all over the place right here in North America. One shouldn’t make such claims and then not be able to verify them because it’s a hollow premise.
I really dislike that tactic, claiming that there’s no evidence for Jesus’ existance when 1) you claim to believe in Him as we do, and 2) you dodge the point, automatically going back to that fall-back position.
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I couldn’t have said it better, thank you.
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SirThomasMore
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nope. Joseph used the best defense is too strike first. He struck. He said they were dishonest. Fine. Then they are not to be trusted
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Returning_Home
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I can’t believe you’re serious about that. While I don’t have the time to address each specifically, all are so vague and taken out of context so as to appear to be something they’re not. I’ve already taken the Civil War prophesy out of the running, too since there has been no ‘full end to all nations.’I think that I have proved the correct prophecies. Should I do it again?
Okay, here I go:
jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_prophecies.shtml
Any comments?
We also have the following prophecies:
-Jesus would return in 1890 and then in 1891
-that Lyman E. Johnson, William Smith, and John F. Boynton would all be alive to see the savior return to earth when, in reality, all were excommunicated and died without seeing the Second Coming
-that the Far West and Independence, MO temples would be built though neither have
I also think the question is this: how many times does a prophet need to be wrong in order to be considered a false prophet?
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I have the book “The Prophecies of Joseph Smith” by Duane Crowther that purports to contain over 400 of Smith’s prophecies that have come true but it’s predicated on the BOM being true so all that follows is spurious at best.
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SirThomasMore
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I love DC 114. Joseph says a person will go on a mission in the coming months. Problem is, the guy can;t, he dies. Now, if the prophesy came from God, one must then assume that God had no idea hte guy was gonna die when Joseh gave the revelaiton. Wow. Like I said…the Mormon God is NOT the God of the Bible
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I think you misunderstand; although David W. Patten was killed in October of 1838, he was supposed to go on his mission in the spirit world, not the real world. Or at least that’s what moden apologists would have us believe in order to side-step the implications of Smith’s divine appointment.
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MelanieAnne
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You guys are totally awesome! And I DON’T mean that in a “valley girl” sort of way, I mean it in a real way!
THANKS!
THANKS!
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SirThomasMore
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Yeah, I have heard that, but I never thought anyone with an ounce of intelligence really believed that
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Sorry for the sarcasm, but yeah, that’s the way Mormon apologists have to spin the facts to make it all cohesive.
Why? To keep the door ajar, ever so little, for the possibility that it might actually be possible. That’s the only justification they need because the best educated and intelligent Mormon apologists know something’s wrong, but they’re desperate to keep their standing in the church, that sense of community, and their precious priesthood (something long fulfilled and now without any authority from God).
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why_me
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Actaully this is not exactly true. However here is the truth about david patton and what happened to him:
For three tumultuous months, events accelerated until the entire Mormon population was expelled from the state of Missouri. It started with the first election day at Gallatin, Daviess County–on my birthday, August 6, 1838. From a fracas just outside the polling place, there arose charges of riot and assault against Joseph and some twenty associates, who came to rescue what they thought were several dead or wounded. While these defendants were out on bail, chaos and anarchy broke out–with house burnings and raids going both ways. Governor Boggs advised the Mormons that they must “fight their own battles.” So they did. But, of course, that made things even worse. The Battle of Crooked River was on October 25. After the mob (organized as a militia) captured some LDS men, the Mormons mobilized their own militia to rescue them.** In the process, several LDS were killed, including David W. Patton, their leader and the President of the Quorum of the Twelve.** But a militia member was also killed. This event, plus false affidavits from some top disaffected Church leaders, was enough for Governor Boggs to issue on October 27 the infamous extermination order to his militia in northern Missouri. (“We must treat the Mormons as enemies & exterminate or drive them from the state.”) Joseph urged all saints to gather at their headquarters in Far West. Most of them came, as requested, but some did not heed his call.
fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2006_Legal_Trials_of_Joseph_Smith.html
As we can see from the above, the mobs were out in force. It seems that satan stirs up the hearts of people and yes, this can frustrate the plans of god. We all have free agency. It is sad really. But such is the way it is.
And yes, david, would then be serving in the afterlife. But he should have lived longer on earth to serve his earthly mission too. But…antimormons killed him and many others.
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why_me
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yes, they certainly are awesome in presenting the facts onesidely…as we can see about patton.
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why_me
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The guy just didn’t die, he was murdered with several other lds. If god can see the works of satan, why doesn’t he interfere? Because we all have free agency. It is sad what happened to Patton. But then, there were people who hated the mormons and their were people who were stirring up the mobs. I don’t know if anything has really changed since that time…what do you think?
Nice try in attempting to leave out the facts about Patton.
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SirThomasMore
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truth is always onesided. That is hard to see for someone who rides the fence.
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SirThomasMore
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lol…and God did not know it would happen? Seriously? lol…The guy just didn’t die, he was murdered with several other lds. If god can see the works of satan, why doesn’t he interfere? Because we all have free agency. It is sad what happened to Patton. But then, there were people who hated the mormons and their were people who were stirring up the mobs. I don’t know if anything has really changed since that time…what do you think?
Nice try in attempting to leave out the facts about Patton.
The real God knows all. Nice try, but you just made our point
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why_me
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Is that a comeback? And of course a little while later after Patton and others were murdered we have this event:
On October 30, 1838, about thirty saints lingered at Jacob Haun’s Mill, to get in the crops. Between twelve and eighteen LDS were massacred and buried in a common well. No mobber was ever tried for this deed.
More martyrs for their faith. Isn’t it nice to make light over Patton’s murder? But the mormons survived and went west and built wonderful towns and cities just like Joseph Smith said would happen.
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