Mormon Claims

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By “true” I mean that they are truly devout and firm in their newfound faith. I should have used a better term or meaning. The majority of Catholics do practice their faith. I do admit that those that are “in name only” probably have never seen the inside of a church. Also, it is these "catholics, along with the “cafeteria” types that are the ones that complain the loudest and are more apt to leave Catholicism, and no matter where they go they will still complain and leave.
Yes, those types of LDS are also annoying. It would be interesting to compare activity levels among Catholics and LDS. I think the only sort of study available is that by the Pew Forum, though I’m sure there are others I am not aware of.
It may not mean perfect in your opinion, but according to JS’s meaning there were absolutely no errors in it and therefore required no updating or corrections ( it was perfect ). Also according to JS, it was more correct than the Bible!
Could you provide quotes by Joseph Smith where he said that it had absolutely no errors and was perfect?
Thank you for your answer.
PAX DOMINI :signofcross:
Shalom Aleichem
No problem! And I know that you are firmly Catholic, and I am firmly LDS, however we can charitably discuss each others beliefs, as you have done in this and other threads I’ve noticed. Thanks 🙂
 
Milk before Meat is a joke. When I converted to Catholicism, I attended RCIA classes for a year. During this time we learned everything about what the Church believes so we could choose for ourselves if this was the religion we would choose to know God. Nothing was hidden. The sacraments were discussed in detail, questions were answered. I never once heard oh…you’ll find out about that later…NEVER…The trained priests, deacons were always glad to answer those sticky questions we might have. Not so in the LDS Church…when is an investigator told about the endowment ceremony…I wasn’t…but now you can check the internet. Where in the Bible does it say you need secret signs and tokens to enter heaven…excuse me Celestial Kingdom.

All the arugments above show a made up religion…

Now can you answer my questions?

stormy
Milk before meat comes from Paul in the New Testament. It is a biblical issue.

It has often been said on this section of the forum that the mormons give milk before meat. And this is said in criticism of the mormons. And yet, in the KJV bible we find the same principle. I think that the criticism that mormons give milk before meat should now be laid to rest.

I found this today in the New Testament: 1 Corinthians Chapter 3:

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

It seems that Paul was also feeding the early church, milk before meat because of the carnal nature of the human being. And then we have this verse from Hebrews chapter 5, verse 12-14:

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

And then finally, 1 Peter chapter 2:1-2:

1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.

And so, the mormons may have gotten it right. Milk should be before meat.
 
Milk before meat to a Mormon means you learn about God before you learn God was once a sinful man
 
Than what is he? Who are these prophets?
I think you need to use the “quote” function. Who is the “he” that you are referring to?
And can you answer my questions?
Which questions? I have already addressed your questions. please refer to my posts.
I lived in Mormon UT…It’s not a good place to live if you are not a Mormon…and no one will answer those kind of questions, including you…why not? What is being hidden…
Again, which questions.
Christians believe in one God…they do not believe that we can become like God…and have our own planet. Please explain that to all of us…To believe in more than one God is heresy and you know what happened to them in the Old Testament…God is very unhappy…You shall have no other God…to me that clearly means men will not become Gods and father spirits to colonize another world…just won’t happen. Also what about Mary, the Mother of Jesus…is she with Heavenly Father? No one mentions her at all…but then good Mormon women will spend Time and All Eternity having spirit babies…on their on planet. Until that factor is gone…pologamy exists in the CK…men can have more than one wife in the CK…that is polgamy no matter what you say and how you try to spin it…
Who ever said that plural marriage would not be found in the Celestial Kingdom? The Jews would also say that to believe in more than one divine Person as being God is against the Old Testament and is heretical. The Trinity teaches a plurality within the unity (with the existence of three distinct Persons that are not each other), and Jews reject that. Clearly we all have different interpretations of what the Old Testament means on this.
 
Living in Mormon UT opened my eyes to a cult…not a religion.

stormy
All religions can be considered cultish since they require people to believe in a certain way. And this belief is forced upon them. For example, can one be a devout catholic if one does not attend Mass? And isn’t Mass required every sunday and during days of obligation? Can a devout catholic avoid Mass and days of obligation? I don’t think so. It would be a sin to avoid Mass. That can sound cultish also.

Mormons live and work in the world. And as can be seen on this forum, there are exmormons. No one stopped them from leaving the lds church. There was no compound with armed guards and no one had to dig a tunnel to get out.

The door is always open to enter and to leave. Also, one claim that the romans made against christians was their cultish behavior. And christianity was considered a cult since it involved around one individual, Jesus Christ.
 
Milk before meat to a Mormon means you learn about God before you learn God was once a sinful man
It means just what I posted from Paul in # 102. Nothing more. It is a biblical concept. Now of course, many critics do not realize this or they may interpret those scriptures differently…but…it is in the bible.
 
Than what is he? Who are these prophets?

And can you answer my questions?

I lived in Mormon UT…It’s not a good place to live if you are not a Mormon…and no one will answer those kind of questions, including you…why not? What is being hidden…

Christians believe in one God…they do not believe that we can become like God…and have our own planet. Please explain that to all of us…To believe in more than one God is heresy and you know what happened to them in the Old Testament…God is very unhappy…You shall have no other God…to me that clearly means men will not become Gods and father spirits to colonize another world…just won’t happen. Also what about Mary, the Mother of Jesus…is she with Heavenly Father? No one mentions her at all…but then good Mormon women will spend Time and All Eternity having spirit babies…on their on planet. Until that factor is gone…pologamy exists in the CK…men can have more than one wife in the CK…that is polgamy no matter what you say and how you try to spin it…

stormy
These issues have been discussed on the forum many times. Your issues are on the internet and many people read such issues, without checking from mormon sources, and post their understanding in a forum.

Go to www.fairlds.org. Put your questions in the search and see if material comes up in the search that you can read. Mormon souces can help you clear up some of your issues.

Mormons consider Mary to be the earthly mother of Jesus. But they do not give the central place that catholics do. In fact, you should research just whenMary began to play a pivotal role in the catholic faith. It wasn’t always so pivotal for the faith.

Mary’s pilgrimage into western mythology was a slow one. She is never mentioned in all the writings of the Apostle Paul, the earliest creator of material that came to be included in the New Testament. Paul, who wrote between 49-64 C.E., had no interest in Jesus’ origins. His only references to Jesus’ family came when he said that Jesus was “born of a woman, born under the law.” He asserted that “according to the flesh,” Jesus was descended from the House of David. Paul also made reference to Jesus’ brother, a man named James. No divine origin here, no miraculous birth, no virgin mother.

The pattern was continued in Mark, the earliest Gospel, written between 70-75 C.E. or 40 to 45 years after the earthly life of Jesus came to an end. Once more there is no story here of a miraculous birth. There are, however, two references to Jesus’ mother, but neither is flattering. She appears in this first Gospel to be embarrassed by Jesus, to think him “beside himself” and Mark says that she went with Jesus’ four brothers, James, Joses, Judas and Simon, and his two sisters to “take Jesus away” [see Mark 3 and 6]. That is hardly the behavior one would expect from a woman who had been visited by an angel and who had been told that she was to be the Virgin Mother of the Son of God.

The Virgin story entered the Christian tradition in the early 9th decade gospel of Matthew, some 55 years after the death of Jesus. It was repeated in the late 9th or early 10th decade gospel of Luke, and then it disappeared in favor of the concept of Jesus’ divine pre-existence in the 10th decade Gospel of John. The mythology of Mary, however, was destined to expand in the development of Christian history.

By the early years of the 2nd century the idea of the Virgin as the ideal woman began to grow. First, it was said of her that she was a virgin mother. Next, she became a permanent virgin, making it necessary to transform the biblically mentioned brothers and sisters of Jesus into half-siblings or cousins. Next the church fathers claimed for her the status of being a postpartum virgin which caused the hierarchy of the church to go through intellectual gymnastics to prove that the hymen of the Virgin Mary had not been ruptured even during Jesus’ birth. Tales circulated that perhaps Jesus was born out of his mother’s ear! Then someone found a text in Ezekiel [see Chapter 44:1] which suggested that when “the gates of the city were closed only the Lord could go in and out.” Without either shame or apology that verse, written about 800 years before the birth of Jesus, was said to demonstrate that Jesus could be born without disturbing the gates of his mother’s womb.

religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=2296

The author of the piece I just linked is a noted theologian. Mary’s seems to have involved over time. But of course, his interpretation is just that…his interpretation.
 
Read below and see he is not a noted theologian…plus being in a polyamours relationship…Wonder Woman? Girls are suppose to be like Wonder Woman…oh please…not one Mormon female I ever knew was anything but totally submissive to every man in their life…it was obvious and condensending to say the least…

Supposedly he discovered or rather one of his women dsicovered the ups and downs of blood pressure and he took the work…

He has no degrees in theology…psychology not theology…please quote a thelogian not just someone who happens to agree with what you think.

Now explain…Mary is the mother of Jesus…and Catholics consider her the Mother of God…since Jesus is part of the Trinity with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit…who is the Mother of Mormon Jesus…who is the God of Mormons…seems to me that he might be the original god since your God lives on Kolob and we live on Earth…do we have another God…but no we can’t can we…there is only One God…in Christianity…where does the Mormon God fit in…or which Mormon God are you speaking of? Please don’t send me to FAIRS…it’s Mormon…and mouths the offical line of Mormon speak…

Now talk about polgamy…
 
Sorry, if you actually read the verses, you will see that it doesn’t just say that “people” will prophesy in the future, but that it is talking about two specific prophets. Those two prophets will be clothed in sack cloth. The overarching point is that, if prophets are unnecessary because of Jesus, then what about these two prophets in Revelation. This is all without reference to LDS prophets. No one is ascribing the verse to all LDS prophets, but addressing the claim that prophets are unnecessary after Jesus, and this verse shows prophesy post-Jesus, with these two specific prophets dressed in sack cloth. This is very simple.

**
“And I will give power unto my two witnesses**, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.” Rev 11:3
But it still doesn’t support the appointing of prophets in the manner of the LDS. It says two will prophesy, but nothing about a chain of “prophets” appointed by a group of men who lived their whole lives in the cloister of mormonism. Nor do your apostles in anyway meet the criteria of Matthias or the calling of Paul.
 
Education Harvard University
B.A. 1915
L.L.B 1918
Ph.D. 1921 (Psychology)
Occupation Psychologist
Writer
Employer American University
Tufts University
Known for Systolic blood-pressure test
Creator of Wonder Woman
Spouse(s) Elizabeth Holloway Marston
Partner Olive Byrne
Children (Elizabeth’s children):
Pete & Olive Ann
(Olive’s children):
Byrne & Donn

Dr. William Moulton Marston (May 9, 1893 – May 2, 1947), also known by the pen name Charles Moulton, was an American psychologist, feminist theorist, inventor, and comic book writer who created the character Wonder Woman. Two women, his wife Elizabeth Holloway Marston and Olive Byrne (who lived with the couple in a polyamorous relationship), served as exemplars for the character and greatly influenced her creation.[1][2]

He was inducted into the Comic Book Hall of Fame in 2006.

Marston is credited as the creator of the systolic blood-pressure test used in an attempt to detect deception, which became one component of the modern polygraph. According to their son, Marston’s wife Elizabeth Holloway Marston was also involved in the development of the systolic blood-pressure test: “According to Marston’s son, it was his mother Elizabeth, Marston’s wife, who suggested to him that ‘When she got mad or excited, her blood pressure to climb’ (Lamb, 2001). Although Elizabeth is not listed as Marston’s collaborator in his early work, Lamb, Matte (1996), and others refer directly and indirectly to Elizabeth’s work on her husband’s deception research. She also appears in a picture taken in his polygraph laboratory in the 1920s (reproduced in Marston, 1938).”[3][4] Some have linked this device to Wonder Woman’s Lasso of Truth, but a direct connection is difficult to demonstrate .

Marston was also a writer of essays in popular psychology.

I
In the early 1940s the DC line was dominated by superpowered male characters such as the Green Lantern, Batman, and its flagship character, Superman. According to the Fall 2001 issue of the Boston University alumni magazine, it was his wife Elizabeth’s idea to create a female superhero:

“ William Moulton Marston, a psychologist already famous for inventing the polygraph (forerunner to the magic lasso), struck upon an idea for a new kind of superhero, one who would triumph not with fists or firepower, but with love. ‘Fine,’ said Elizabeth. ‘But make her a woman.’[1] ”

Marston introduced the idea to Max Gaines, co-founder (along with Jack Liebowitz) of All-American Publications. Given the go-ahead, Marston developed Wonder Woman with Elizabeth (whom Marston believed to be a model of that era’s unconventional, liberated woman).[1] In creating Wonder Woman, Marston was also inspired by Olive Byrne, who lived with the couple in a polygamous/polyamorous relationship.[6] Marston’s pseudonym, Charles Moulton, combined his own and Gaines’ middle names.



[edit] Development
Marston used a pen name that combined his middle name with that of Gaines to create Charles Moulton. Marston intended his character, which he called “Suprema”, to be “tender, submissive, peaceloving as good women are,” combining “all the strength of a Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman.” His character was a native of an all-female utopia who became a crime-fighting U.S. government agent, using her superhuman strength and agility, and her ability to force villains to tell the truth by binding them with her magic lasso. Her appearance, including her heavy silver bracelets (which she used to deflect bullets), was based somewhat on Olive Byrne.

Editor Sheldon Mayer replaced the name “Suprema” with “Wonder Woman”, and the character made her debut in All Star Comics #8 (December 1941). The character next appeared in Sensation Comics #1 (January 1942), and six months later, Wonder Woman #1 debuted. Except for four months in 2006, the series has been in print ever since, and now appears bi-monthly. The stories were initially written by Marston and illustrated by newspaper artist Harry Peter. During his life Marston had written many articles and books on psychological topics, but his last six years of writing were devoted to his comics creation.

William Moulton Marston died of cancer on May 2, 1947 in Rye, New York. After his death, Elizabeth and Olive continued to live together until Olive’s death in the late 1980s; Elizabeth died in 1993, aged 100.

[edit] Themes
Marston’s Wonder Woman is often cited as an early example of bondage themes entering popular culture: physical submission appears again and again throughout Marston’s comics work, with Wonder Woman and her criminal opponents frequently being tied up or otherwise restrained, and her Amazonian friends engaging in frequent wrestling and bondage play (possibly based on Marston’s earlier research studies on sorority initiations). These elements were softened by later writers of the series. Though Marston had described female nature as submissive, in his other writings and interviews he referred to submission to women as a noble and potentially world-saving practice, leading ideally to the establishment of a matriarchy, and did not shy away from the sexual implications of this:

“The only hope for peace is to teach people who are full of pep and unbound force to enjoy being bound … Only when the control of self by others is more pleasant than the unbound assertion of self in human relationships can we hope for a stable, peaceful human society. … Giving to others, being controlled by them, submitting to other people cannot possibly be enjoyable without a strong erotic element”.[7]
About male readers, he later wrote: “Give them an alluring woman stronger than themselves to submit to, and they’ll be proud to become her willing slaves!”[8]

These themes were among many that motivated Dr. Frederic Wertham’s hostile criticism in Seduction
 
Your noted theologian was a polygamist…a psychologist of dubious nature and wrote comic books…oh yes and he also was a supporter of male bondage…hardly an example anyone would take serious.

stormy
 
Now explain…Mary is the mother of Jesus…and Catholics consider her the Mother of God…since Jesus is part of the Trinity with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit…who is the Mother of Mormon Jesus…who is the God of Mormons…seems to me that he might be the original god since your God lives on Kolob and we live on Earth…do we have another God…but no we can’t can we…there is only One God…in Christianity…where does the Mormon God fit in…or which Mormon God are you speaking of? Please don’t send me to FAIRS…it’s Mormon…and mouths the offical line of Mormon speak…

Now talk about polgamy…
Now, stormy, here was my point…the Mary issue evolved over time in the christian faith. Mary was not mentioned by Paul and so, we can assume that the early christians did not view her as the catholic church views her today. Her pivotal role was involving over time. So, it is perfectly okay for mormons to claim what they claim about Mary. Now that being said, I do go to the catholic church and light a candle before the statue of mary and ask her for help. I see no problem with her role and how she evolved in christian thought.

Like I said, you can go to fair and discover the mormon answers. You don’t need to believe them but you will get some understanding. If someone wants to find out about the catholic faith, would you suggest catholic answers or a critical site toward catholicism?

Polygamy: I see no problem with it during the early lds church. Here is a comprehensive article about it:

fairlds.org/Misc/Polygamy_Prophets_and_Prevarication.html

This handles the issue indepth and addresses a lot of issues.
 
Please remember I was married to a Mormon, I know from first hand experience what Mormons say about their religion…and actually most are ignorant on the important issues of Mormonism…as many Cradle Catholics are on theirs…BIC Mormons are some of the most intellectually challanged people I ever met…all I ever got from them…Was I know the Church is True and tears with their testimony…they refused to even read about their past…most women I know would not tolerate Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and all their wives many of which were underage women…and the average Mormon won’t acknowledge this at all…as you won’t.

stormy
 
Read below and see he is not a noted theologian.
Actually, Spong’s books are well read by many people. And yes, he is a theologian. But a protestant who is quite liberal in his interpretation of christianity.

The Virgin Mary is No Wonder Woman

by John Shelby Spong

John Shelby Spong was Episcopal Bishop of Newark, New Jersey. Among his bestselling books are Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism, Resurrection: Myth or Reality?, and Why Christianity Must Change or Die: A Bishop Speaks to Believers in Exile. He retired in early 2,000 to become a lecturer at Harvard University. This article appears as a resource on The Center for Progressive Christianity web site, copyright 2001 and used by permission. Additional resources and information about The Center may be found at tcpc.org/.

Spong was a polygamist? Really?🤷
 
But it still doesn’t support the appointing of prophets in the manner of the LDS. It says two will prophesy, but nothing about a chain of “prophets” appointed by a group of men who lived their whole lives in the cloister of mormonism. Nor do your apostles in anyway meet the criteria of Matthias or the calling of Paul.
No one ever claimed that the verse supports the “appointing of prophets in the manner of the LDS”.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6679147&postcount=86
 
Stormy, the author of the article posted by Why Me is John Spong, not William Marston.

:whacky:
 
Now, stormy, here was my point…the Mary issue evolved over time in the christian faith. Mary was not mentioned by Paul and so, we can assume that the early christians did not view her as the catholic church views her today. Her pivotal role was involving over time. So, it is perfectly okay for mormons to claim what they claim about Mary. Now that being said, I do go to the catholic church and light a candle before the statue of mary and ask her for help. I see no problem with her role and how she evolved in christian thought.

I understand your point…but where is she now as you see it in the Mormon church…which Mother of which God.

Like I said, you can go to fair and discover the mormon answers. You don’t need to believe them but you will get some understanding. If someone wants to find out about the catholic faith, would you suggest catholic answers or a critical site toward catholicism?

Right to the Cathechism of the Catholic Church…that’s where you will find answers about the Catholic Church…Even here you get someone’s ideas except when you ask a direct question to a priest…and I’m sure the local Catholic Priests can help…but for me it’s the Cathechism…it has all the answers in print…

Polygamy: I see no problem with it during the early lds church. Here is a comprehensive article

You see no problem with forcing underage women into marriage with old men…you see no problem with polygamy in the CK…none at all…wow…as a woman I see a whole lot of problems with it…on earth and in the CK…remember I was married to a Mormon who believed in polgamy in the CK…what else would you do with the unmarried women in the CK…he said…but of course not before we were married…but after…

Polgamy in your background is something that will always be present…oh and the present also…LDS and not FLDS practice it now…you know and I know it…

stormy

fairlds.org/Misc/Polygamy_Prophets_and_Prevarication.html

This handles the issue indepth and addresses a lot of issues.
 
Very interesting article…the part using civil disobedience is cleverly written…but again it is nothing I have not read before and have not heard in my own marriage…did not Joseph Smith send men on missions and marry their wives or that might have been Brigham Young. Nope…none of the literature will convince people not conditioned to this from birth to accept polgamy as Christian…no matter how they spin it…

stormy
 
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