Mormon Claims

[SirThomasMore]

Jesus was a God before coming to this world, he walked as a man and felt all that which we humans feel…and yet He did not have a beginning. His physical body had a beginning, HIs spirit had a beginning, but His essence or Inteligence (Light and Truth) always existed. The same applies to us…we always existed, we are co-eternal with God.

That is not what was taught in the past. “As man is, God once was…as Godf is man can become”

In other words, I can be a God someday. I was not God before. So, it is an evolution. Just as it was taught that God was once a sinful man who evolved to God like we can.

But, the LDS Church whittles away at all the odd stuff like this to appear more mainstream.

 

[SirThomasMore]

First of all, this is not official doctrine of the LDS Church and it has never been as stated by someone here before.

Right. It was taught by prophets, but now that it is shown to be wrong, it is not doctrine. That seems to be a constant theme

But, you can try to run from your prophet saying Adam was God and you can run from the teaching fromj a prophet that God was once sinful man, but you can never hide from it

 

[Kdesiel]

If it is not in the Standard Works (Scriptures) it is not considered official. We have no revelation given to any prophet as this statement being scripture.

What good is a Prophets sermon’s or guidance if they cannot be considered doctrine or scripture?
What would be the point in listening to a Prophet if the message he carries has no greater weight than the message of any other contemporary member of the LDS Church?

What good does a Modern Day Prophet serve if you never know when he is or when he isn’t providing “Divine Revelation” from the pulpit?

I find it a convenient way to change church doctrine at a whim in order to satisfy public opinion or to justify “False Teachings.” If there is a “Revelation” taught from the pulpit which becomes outdated or too controversial through the guise of “Divine Revelation” it can be changed to satisfy offended parties or the overall agenda of the Church.

These Prophets have taught issues such as Adam God theory, Plural Marriage, Blood Atonement, Blacks and the Priesthood, just to name a few from the pulpit. From General Conference. These sermons are published in Books sold in LDS Book stores, they are approved by the LDS Church and the first Presidency, they are distributed with the intent members will read and apply said teachings in their religious lives.
So regardless if the Prophet prefaces his sermon with “Thus Saith the Lord” his teachings are distributed to members so they can adopt his teachings in the background out of public sight. If I were a Mormon wouldn’t it be safe to assume a Book Titled “The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith” would contain his Prophetic teaching and directions for the Church? Same goes with any of those works.

I find the more controversial the teaching the less inclined an LDS member is willing to publicly acknowledge the teaching as inspired revelation, all the while within their own groups inside the church they do acknowledge these sermons as inspired Revelation.
I find this to be disingenuous and dishonest. To use the excuse of “If its not in the Standard Works” then it isn’t scripture and shouldn’t be followed as Revelation, doesn’t hold water. What is the point of every Prophet after J. Smith if they haven’t added any divine revelation to build the church on? Wouldn’t the advent of Continuing Revelation be Modern and Continuing Revelation for the Church body as times change, yet by your own arguments there hasn’t been any added revelation after the Church disavowed Plural marriage.
Which brings up the question, Plural marriage was taught as a Commandment of the Lord, a Modern and Divine Revelation. The Church did away with that Commandment and no longer practice the Divine teachings from God to his Prophet, How is the LDS church NOT in a state of apostasy today? - That is one example of a few.

To claim all other Churches are in Apostasy. By your own definition of Apostasy the LDS Church is and has been in a state of Apostasy for quite some time.

The idea a Modern Prophet is to keep the Church from falling into Apostasy yet there isn’t a clear conciseness with in the Church on when the Prophets teachings are divine or merely opinion.

 

[evanfaust]

That seems to be so typical of the LDS Doctrine. Take as fact what you need to support your belief, than take as symbolic that which hurts your belief.

There must be prophesy because it says there will be two prophets, yet the rest of the phrase is symbolic because it says sackcloth.

The LDS Church makes it living off of picking and choosing what verses to accept in the Bible. Picking and chossing what outlandish comments your "prophets’ have made, and pickiung and choosing what you consider real and what you consider symbolic

Don’t feel so frustrated Sir! There will be two prophets as Revelation says…but don’t expect them to be literally “dressed in sackcloth”…because as you may have noticed Revelation is a simbolic book of scritpure. A prophet is someone sent by God to warn, to teach, to call for repentance and to prophesy.

Despite the evidence you still have not admitted that we are discussing two prophets making prophecies after the “cannon of Scriptures” is closed. You are still trying to deviate from the main point. Whether you understand “sackcloth” literally or simbolically it makes no difference because the fact remains…the Bible itself is testifying of “prophets and prophecy” after Christ and after the Apostles!

(Edited)

 

[DCNBILL]

Jesus was a God before coming to this world, he walked as a man and felt all that which we humans feel…and yet He did not have a beginning. His physical body had a beginning, HIs spirit had a beginning, but His essence or Inteligence (Light and Truth) always existed. The same applies to us…we always existed, we are co-eternal with God.

Note that this would be contrary to the Christian view.

A Christian would say that Jesus was God, or a Person of the one prior to the incarnation. There is a huge difference in the polythestic view of a god and One God.

Christians steadfastly believe in 1 God.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Of course there are people who have the gift of prophecy. It is only a mormon idea that Christians believe none have this gift.

What is not biblical or Apostolic, is the mormon idea that God designates lds leaders with this gift, and no one else.

The bible says some have a gift of prophecy, it says nothing of Christ’s Church being led by prophets.

Jesus is the final Revelation. I have yet to hear a mormon tell us what, exactly, He left out that would need to be canonized. Look to the Cross, and you’ll know He forgot nothing.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Don’t feel so frustrated Sir!

I am not frustrated. When I see Mormons needing to pick and choose, it simply is God showing me that He led me to the right Church

There will be two prophets as Revelation says…but don’t expect them to be literally “dressed in sackcloth”…because as you may have noticed Revelation is a simbolic book of scritpure. A prophet is someone sent by God to warn, to teach, to call for repentance and to prophesy.

That is fine. Though, originally, this verse was being used to justify the need for a prophet NOW, which this verse does not do

Despite the evidence you still have not admitted that we are discussing two prophets making prophecies after the “cannon of Scriptures” is closed.

Two people prophesying in sack cloth does not mean the Canon of Scripture is still open. That is a huge leap. I have simply stated there is no NEED for a prophet now, not that there would not be two men in sackcloths in the future prophesying…

(Edited)

(Edited)

 

[evanfaust]

That is not what was taught in the past. “As man is, God once was…as Godf is man can become”

In other words, I can be a God someday. I was not God before. So, it is an evolution. Just as it was taught that God was once a sinful man who evolved to God like we can.

But, the LDS Church whittles away at all the odd stuff like this to appear more mainstream.

Again you misunderstand the point! Jesus said: "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

This is in Salms 82:6 and it means a lot! It is so important and relevant that this was repeated later by Christ Himself in John 10:34-36

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? "

You are acting like the Jews that called Jesus a blasphemer because he claimed to be the Son of God. Pay attention to “children of the most High”…we are children of the most high…children can become like their parents.

Do you see the link between “sons of God” and “ye are gods”? We are descendants of God! We are children of God! We are more noble than you give credit for! Just believe Jesus! By the way, the fathers of the Church believed in that too!

 

[Caprica]

Of course there are people who have the gift of prophecy. It is only a mormon idea that Christians believe none have this gift.

This is false. Mormons are aware that many other Christians believe that the gift of prophecy is still operative. The issue is public revelation. If the gift of prophecy still continues, and God is giving these revelations, it is odd that the Catholic Church puts this in the realm of private revelations, and states that one is not required to believe in this message. So you’re not comparing apples to apples. It would be more approprate to compare this to personal revelation in the LDS Church. Though it certainly is interesting to see the attraction to the Marian apparitions.

What is not biblical or Apostolic, is the mormon idea that God designates lds leaders with this gift, and no one else.

Where is it stated that only LDS leaders have the gift of prophecy?

The bible says some have a gift of prophecy, it says nothing of Christ’s Church being led by prophets.

The LDS Church is led by apostles. “The Prophet” of the Church, i.e. the President, is an apostle in our belief.

Jesus is the final Revelation. I have yet to hear a mormon tell us what, exactly, He left out that would need to be canonized. Look to the Cross, and you’ll know He forgot nothing.

Traditional Christians vary in their belief on whether public revelation ended with Jesus, or with the death of the last apostle. If Jesus left us everything, then it is certainly odd that even the most ancient traditional Christian churches (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Nestorians, Oriental Orthodox) can’t agree on what exactly Jesus left us (and this is on doctrinal issues. Did Jesus tell us that Mary was immaculately conceived? Where did He do so? It is clear that we all believe that God reveals more about what He has already revealed, which helps us understand the Gospel more. We call that continuing revelation, Catholics call that development of doctrine. It certainly is interesting to see the Eastern Orthodox view of this development of doctrine issue, but that’s for another thread.

 

[evanfaust]

Note that this would be contrary to the Christian view.

A Christian would say that Jesus was God, or a Person of the one prior to the incarnation. There is a huge difference in the polythestic view of a god and One God.

Christians steadfastly believe in 1 God.

Mormons also believe and worship One God! But we acknowledge that the One is love and purpose! The “Christians” you refer to contradict themselves when they say they believe One God, but at the same time they believe the Father is a God and Jesus is a God! Then, they try to fuse the two in ONE so they don’t look polytheistic! The Bible clearly states that the Father sent the Son! That Christ, Who is a God prayed to his Father, who is a God! Christ makes a clear distinction of persons between HImself and the Father! One is the Father and the other is the Son! The Son only does that which He has seen the father do! The inconsistencies are numerous when you think about it!

 

[DCNBILL]

This is false. Mormons are aware that many other Christians believe that the gift of prophecy is still operative. The issue is public revelation. If the gift of prophecy still continues, and God is giving these revelations, it is odd that the Catholic Church puts this in the realm of private revelations, and states that one is not required to believe in this message. So you’re not comparing apples to apples. It would be more approprate to compare this to personal revelation in the LDS Church. Though it certainly is interesting to see the attraction to the Marian apparition.

Note that this statement demonstrates a misunderstanding of revelation in the Catholic faith.

Since the fullness of revelation of God came in the form of the Incarnation of Jesus the Christ, our Lord and Savior there is no need for further revelation as would be public revelation. Hence and rightly does the Church hold that any revelation that is granted to individuals is private revelation that one holds in their own heart as a treasure to be prayed upon or shared with others, but certainly not adding anything to the fullness of revelation that was God come to earth. So, not so odd when one knows the truth:thumbsup:

 

[Caprica]

Note that this statement demonstrates a misunderstanding of revelation in the Catholic faith.

Since the fullness of revelation of God came in the form of the Incarnation of Jesus the Christ, our Lord and Savior there is no need for further revelation as would be public revelation. Hence and rightly does the Church hold that any revelation that is granted to individuals is private revelation that one holds in their own heart as a treasure to be prayed upon or shared with others, but certainly not adding anything to the fullness of revelation that was God come to earth. So, not so odd when one knows the truth:thumbsup:

How is this different from what I said? RebeccaJ said that there are people with the gift of prophecy. I said that since Catholicism teaches that public revelation ended, these revelations given by God are in the realm of private revelation, and one is not required to believe in these revelations (such as the Marian apparitions).

 

[SirThomasMore]

Again you misunderstand the point! Jesus said: "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

This is in Salms 82:6 and it means a lot! It is so important and relevant that this was repeated later by Christ Himself in John 10:34-36

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? "

You are acting like the Jews that called Jesus a blasphemer because he claimed to be the Son of God. Pay attention to “children of the most High”…we are children of the most high…children can become like their parents.

Do you see the link between “sons of God” and “ye are gods”? We are descendants of God! We are children of God! We are more noble than you give credit for! Just believe Jesus! By the way, the fathers of the Church believed in that too!

None of that is relevant to the teaching that God was once a sinful man. Nothing in Scriptures support it. Your own Church now tries to run from it. But it WAS a teaching from your prophets. And nothing in Scripture supports it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

This is false. Mormons are aware that many other Christians believe that the gift of prophecy is still operative. The issue is public revelation. If the gift of prophecy still continues, and God is giving these revelations, it is odd that the Catholic Church puts this in the realm of private revelations, and states that one is not required to believe in this message. So you’re not comparing apples to apples. It would be more approprate to compare this to personal revelation in the LDS Church. Though it certainly is interesting to see the attraction to the Marian apparitions.

What is odd is that mormons think there is something more to be revealed than Jesus Christ.

Where is it stated that only LDS leaders have the gift of prophecy?

Tell me dear Caprica, of the prophets your church teaches about between the NT and 1830.

The LDS Church is led by apostles. “The Prophet” of the Church, i.e. the President, is an apostle in our belief.

I think it is interesting, this view you have about your lds prophet. A diminished need is appearing to become evident, whereas, your church obviously teaches that a prophet leading Christ’s Church is required.

■ President Joseph Fielding Smith taught that the Lord provides and directs the use of His sacred ordinances through His prophets: “In every age when the gospel is on earth, it must be revealed to the Lord’s prophets, and they must be called to stand as legal administrators to perform and to direct the performance of the ordinances of salvation for their fellowmen” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1970, 6). quote: Missionary Preparation Student Manual

Traditional Christians vary in their belief on whether public revelation ended with Jesus, or with the death of the last apostle.

No they aren’t.

If Jesus left us everything, then it is certainly odd that even the most ancient traditional Christian churches (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Nestorians, Oriental Orthodox) can’t agree on what exactly Jesus left us (and this is on doctrinal issues.

Of course we do, that you do not accept Christ’s teaching does not indicate there is not one faith.

Shall we discuss the different factions of Mormonism?

Did Jesus tell us that Mary was immaculately conceived? Where did He do so? It is clear that we all believe that God reveals more about what He has already revealed, which helps us understand the Gospel more. We call that continuing revelation, Catholics call that development of doctrine. It certainly is interesting to see the Eastern Orthodox view of this development of doctrine issue, but that’s for another thread.

We call that revelation as well. Jesus gave to His Church the gift of the Holy Spirit, WE BELIEVE that God’s guidance has never left His Church. I’m sorry that you do.

As to Mary, the Church as Christ established it protects and passes on all she was given. Hail Mary, full of Grace…just exactly how full of Grace do lds believe she was…oh yeah, lds believe Mary is just an ordinary woman and hardly mention her existence, except maybe a passing phrase at Christmas.

Joe has more of an importance to you than Christ’s Mother. Go figure.

PS: your Protestant roots are showing.

 

[DCNBILL]

Mormons also believe and worship One God! But we acknowledge that the One is love and purpose! The “Christians” you refer to contradict themselves when they say they believe One God, but at the same time they believe the Father is a God and Jesus is a God! Then, they try to fuse the two in ONE so they don’t look polytheistic! The Bible clearly states that the Father sent the Son! That Christ, Who is a God prayed to his Father, who is a God! Christ makes a clear distinction of persons between HImself and the Father! One is the Father and the other is the Son! The Son only does that which He has seen the father do! The inconsistencies are numerous when you think about it!

First please note that my intention here is not to argue against the Morman religion, my knowledge of this religion is limited to the members of the Morman faith that I have met in my life, the LDS that have knocked on my door and what I have seen here posted by both current and former LDS members. Also I would like to say that all the Mormans that I have met have been nice friendly folk.

That being said, I have a very good understanding of what the Catholic/Christion Church does and does not believe so please do not presume to try to “explain” the beliefs of my faith to me.

If LDS worship one god or not, I do not know but it is very very clear to me by not only your posts but the posts of every LDS I have seen on this forum as well as every LDS that I have talked to that the LDS most definitly believe in more than one god. This is polytheism. If I am incorrect on this it is because everyone has misrepresented the LDS faith to me.

The Christian faith does not believe polytheism it believes in monotheism i.e. one God only, from all eternity, no other, ever. If you wish to learn of the nature of this Christian God you will most likely find numerous threads on The Trinity here and abouts.

I have every interest about learning more about the faith of the LDS, which is why I participate on these forums. And please note that I have no agenda here but to learn.

Please note however that when I see people misrepresenting the Catholic/Christian faith, I will point out the errors that they make and attempt to teach the true belief system of The Faith.

Peace in Christ

 

[DCNBILL]

How is this different from what I said? RebeccaJ said that there are people with the gift of prophecy. I said that since Catholicism teaches that public revelation ended, these revelations given by God are in the realm of private revelation, and one is not required to believe in these revelations (such as the Marian apparitions).

It is the opposit of what you stated, hence different. You stated that it is odd for the Catholic Church to believe in only private revelation. I, on the other hand, said that this was not odd at all and explained why.

Please note that I was not trying to defend any other position than what The Church teaches, and did not mean to interrupt your discussion with Rebecca.

 

[why_me]

The idea of God once being a man troubles me. Yes.
God knows me and understands me and what I experience in life because; 1. He’s God, he knows all. Simply put. I am in not position to question How he knows all. I accept he’s God.
2. He is my Creator. He knows me as well as he does because he created me.

To think he would have to go through life as a man in order to relate to his creations would suggest God is not all knowing, he doesn’t have a perfect knowledge of things.
.

I have experienced this argument before. I don’t think that god cares how we see him. However, the way that mormons see him is not bad at all. I think that knowing that god was once a man, experiencing what we have experienced can be comforting. It means that he knows exactly what we have experienced. And because of that our relationship with him can be that much closer.

And yet, I see your viewpoint too. However, god not experiencing human form can not possibly comprehend the human totally, because he never was human. We would have experienced something that god hasn’t. And there is something a little amiss there.

 

[why_me]

That is not what was taught in the past. “As man is, God once was…as Godf is man can become”

In other words, I can be a God someday. I was not God before. So, it is an evolution. Just as it was taught that God was once a sinful man who evolved to God like we can.

But, the LDS Church whittles away at all the odd stuff like this to appear more mainstream.

I don’t think that the lds church has wittle away at it at all. In the gospel principles manual that is now being studied in the lds church, it states during the first lesson that god is flesh and bone, meaning that he was once a man.

But it goes back to the preexistence. As spirit children we had to gain a physical body to know what is means to have a body and also to be tested. Why do humans need a physical body? Why couldn’t we just have spiritual bodies and live with god? There was a reason for us getting a physical body. And the mormon explanation can make some sense.

 

[Kdesiel]

However, god not experiencing human form can not possibly comprehend the human totally, because he never was human. We would have experienced something that god hasn’t…

I don’t see the reason for God to experience life in a “Human” form. God being an all knowing and perfect creator, why would he have a need to see it from a human perspective?
To me and in my opinion it would diminish his ability to be God. The need for God to live a life as a human to experience life as we experience life would denote that he doesn’t know all, that he is not in touch with his creations.

As our creator and the creator of all things, wouldn’t he have a perfect knowledge of the things he’s created? Including the experiences attached?

By being a perfect an all knowing being couldn’t God gain those experiences, should he need too, just by being involved in our lives, being involved in governing and watching over his creations?

That is how I see it anyway.

Christ came and became Man for a purpose greater than just experiencing life as a mere mortal.

 

[ParkerD]

First please note that my intention here is not to argue against the Morman religion, my knowledge of this religion is limited to the members of the Morman faith that I have met in my life, the LDS that have knocked on my door and what I have seen here posted by both current and former LDS members. Also I would like to say that all the Mormans that I have met have been nice friendly folk.

That being said, I have a very good understanding of what the Catholic/Christion Church does and does not believe so please do not presume to try to “explain” the beliefs of my faith to me.

If LDS worship one god or not, I do not know but it is very very clear to me by not only your posts but the posts of every LDS I have seen on this forum as well as every LDS that I have talked to that the LDS most definitly believe in more than one god. This is polytheism. If I am incorrect on this it is because everyone has misrepresented the LDS faith to me.

The Christian faith does not believe polytheism it believes in monotheism i.e. one God only, from all eternity, no other, ever. If you wish to learn of the nature of this Christian God you will most likely find numerous threads on The Trinity here and abouts.

I have every interest about learning more about the faith of the LDS, which is why I participate on these forums. And please note that I have no agenda here but to learn.

Please note however that when I see people misrepresenting the Catholic/Christian faith, I will point out the errors that they make and attempt to teach the true belief system of The Faith.

Peace in Christ

DCNBILL,
Peace in Christ to you also. I agree that you should be able to define your beliefs as you choose, and to express them as you understand them to be and feel them to be in your heart.

But to use a Greek-based word, “polytheism”, to define a belief that holds that the words of the Savior in His intercessory prayer (John 17) were to be taken literally and thus meant that Christ became One with the Father and brings others to be One with Them, unified in love of the truth and in love of righteousness and in having been sanctified, seems to be using the wrong word, unless you can get the Webster organization to add a new definition to the word “polytheism” to mean “Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost as Three Persons Who are One in Purpose and Will, and those others who become united with them through being sanctified by the Holy Ghost and the grace of Christ.”

John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Again, peace to you.