Mormon Claims

[DCNBILL]

DCNBILL,
Peace in Christ to you also. I agree that you should be able to define your beliefs as you choose, and to express them as you understand them to be and feel them to be in your heart.

But to use a Greek-based word, “polytheism”, to define a belief that holds that the words of the Savior in His intercessory prayer (John 17) were to be taken literally and thus meant that Christ became One with the Father and brings others to be One with Them, unified in love of the truth and in love of righteousness and in having been sanctified, seems to be using the wrong word, unless you can get the Webster organization to add a new definition to the word “polytheism” to mean “Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost as Three Persons Who are One in Purpose and Will, and those others who become united with them through being sanctified by the Holy Ghost and the grace of Christ.”
John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Again, peace to you.

ParkerD, Peace to you and yours as well.

I am sorry that I was unclear, I did not mean that the LDS doctrine of the Godhead was a polythestic teaching, it was explained to me quite clearly that God the Father was the only devine being in the Godhead and that neither the Holy Ghost or Jesus were God. I was refering to the LDS teaching that one day, if one lives their lives properly a person could become a god.

I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD, Peace to you and yours as well.

I am sorry that I was unclear, I did not mean that the LDS doctrine of the Godhead was a polythestic teaching, it was explained to me quite clearly that God the Father was the only divine being in the Godhead and that neither the Holy Ghost or Jesus were God. I was refering to the LDS teaching that one day, if one lives their lives properly a person could become a god.

I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

DCNBILL,

Then here again is another word use that seems way different from what Webster would make of the definition of the word “divine”: “A Deity”; “heavenly; God-like”.

Those definitions would certainly include the Savior and the Holy Ghost, as well as the Father. Thus, to say that the Savior and the Holy Ghost do not share in the divinity held by the Father, is neither the proper use of the word “divinity” nor a proper view of the beliefs of the LDS church. The LDS church views Each Person, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost as divine Beings, omnipotent, omniscient, full of love.

To become “perfect” is to become “God-like” in perfection meaning nothing less than perfect, so that belief comes straight from the Savior’s intercessory prayer and just happens to take the prayer literally, as well as the several teachings of John describing being a “joint heir” with Jesus Christ.

So I hope this has clarified a pretty significant misconception.

 

[Javl]

I would like to interject here the Christian belief in, and of, God. We believe in the Holy Trinity. The Father is God, The Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. The Father is NOT the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is NOT the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is NOT the Father or the Son. These are three individual entities who share the one Divine Nature, God. How this is so, has not as yet been revealed to us, but that the one God is a Trinity has been revealed in scripture.

Non-Christians, Unitarians and Arians all say that the word “trinity” does not appear in the Bible. This is true, but the existence of the Holy Trinity is alluded to and presented from Genesis to Revelation. We all know that the Father is God. The Son is called God by the Father, and the Son also claims to be God, and the Gospel of John also calls Him God. That the Holy Spirit is also God is claimed as such by both the Father and the Son, especially in the Book of Acts, which is also called the Gospel of the Holy Spirit. He is shown to perform works that only God can perform.

Again, that there is a Trinity, is spoken of by Jesus to the Apostles:*** “Go forth and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”*** Again, we know that the Father is God. Here Jesus puts himself on a par with the Father, which proves He is God, and again the Holy Spirit also, showing that the Holy Spirit is not some inert force as some claim.

And again, in the Epistles of Peter and Paul, that Jesus is God and that the Trinity is actual is pronounced by them both. God has existed before all eternity.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMesiach

 

[SirThomasMore]

DCNBILL,

Then here again is another word use that seems way different from what Webster would make of the definition of the word “divine”: “A Deity”; “heavenly; God-like”.

Those definitions would certainly include the Savior and the Holy Ghost, as well as the Father. Thus, to say that the Savior and the Holy Ghost do not share in the divinity held by the Father, is neither the proper use of the word “divinity” nor a proper view of the beliefs of the LDS church. The LDS church views Each Person, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost as divine Beings, omnipotent, omniscient, full of love.

To become “perfect” is to become “God-like” in perfection meaning nothing less than perfect, so that belief comes straight from the Savior’s intercessory prayer and just happens to take the prayer literally, as well as the several teachings of John describing being a “joint heir” with Jesus Christ.

So I hope this has clarified a pretty significant misconception.

Except that God Himself says there no Gods formed before Him and None after. God says He knows of no other Gods. God Himself says that there are no other Gods. So, this is God Himself telling us that Mormon Doctrine os False Doctrine.

After all, if anyone should know, it is God

 

[ParkerD]

Except that God Himself says there no Gods formed before Him and None after. God says He knows of no other Gods. God Himself says that there are no other Gods. After all, if anyone should know, it is God

Indeed, He Who is the God of Israel and the Redeemer of Israel, should have been known by those whom He gave those teachings through the wonderful prophet Isaiah. They should have recognized that He who said as recorded in Isaiah 41:

8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
9 Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.
10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.
11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.
13 For I the Lord thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee.
14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the Lord, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

–was their Redeemer, their promised Messiah, their One True Savior, even Jehovah, Immanuel, God with us, Alpha and Omega, the Anointed One, the Shepherd of Israel, the holder of the Key of David, and the Rock who was promised by Moses who would be the sure foundation of the faithful.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Indeed, He Who is the God of Israel and the Redeemer of Israel, should have been known by those whom He gave those teachings through the wonderful prophet Isaiah. They should have recognized that He who said as recorded in Isaiah 41:

8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
9 Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.
10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.
11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.
13 For I the Lord thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee.
14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the Lord, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

–was their Redeemer, their promised Messiah, their One True Savior, even Jehovah, Immanuel, God with us, Alpha and Omega, the Anointed One, the Shepherd of Israel, the holder of the Key of David, and the Rock who was promised by Moses who would be the sure foundation of the faithful.

Yes…the problem is, your church teaches there are many Gods. And that God of the Bible who says He never changes, your church teaches that he DOES change, in fact, he changes from a sinful man to a God.

So, to be LDS, one must believe that God lied AND that Jesus lied.

 

[ParkerD]

Yes…the problem is, your church teaches there are many Gods. And that God of the Bible who says He never changes, your church teaches that he DOES change, in fact, he changes from a sinful man to a God.

So, to be LDS, one must believe that God lied AND that Jesus lied.

The problem, then, would be that whoever taught you such a thing was so completely misinformed having not read the Bible nor understood the one statement of Joseph Smith on the subject that “God was once a man like us”, that they were able to misinform you. “From all eternity” and “Alpha” would mean the beginning of eternity as we know it, and at that point in time, Jehovah was indeed Alpha, the FirstBorn, He who was God the Son as Alpha and Omega. He indeed “changes not”, nor does the Father change–They are omnipotent. They change not.

But to become a joint heir with Christ is to become precisely what He prayed for His followers to become–which is to become “one with Them.” To become perfect, perfectly good, perfectly obedient with a perfect unity with the will of the Father and the Son. It is to become able to have the “faith of a grain of mustard seed.” It is to “rule the nations”. It is to “be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”

 

[Returning_Home]

DCNBILL,

Then here again is another word use that seems way different from what Webster would make of the definition of the word “divine”: “A Deity”; “heavenly; God-like”.

Those definitions would certainly include the Savior and the Holy Ghost, as well as the Father. Thus, to say that the Savior and the Holy Ghost do not share in the divinity held by the Father, is neither the proper use of the word “divinity” nor a proper view of the beliefs of the LDS church. The LDS church views Each Person, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost as divine Beings, omnipotent, omniscient, full of love.

To become “perfect” is to become “God-like” in perfection meaning nothing less than perfect, so that belief comes straight from the Savior’s intercessory prayer and just happens to take the prayer literally, as well as the several teachings of John describing being a “joint heir” with Jesus Christ.

So I hope this has clarified a pretty significant misconception.

Pretty slippery, there, Parker. What you recited was the Christian view of God and claimed that it’s that of your faith.

Since we both know that the LDS teaches that men may become gods and that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are all separate and distinct godss, your claims here hold no water. This fully illustrates how Mormonism is an evolution, not a restoration of anything. It also fully refutes your own BOM, which makes it clear that God is an eternal spirit, always and forever.

And your definition of perfection and godliness is all nonsense, too, seeing as how both Noah and Job were perfect (Gen 6:9, Job 1:1). In reality, this is the reason the church has to deny the validity of the Bible, so as to slip its own un-Christian beliefs into the mix and make them appear as though they actually made sense.

Luckily, there are people who understand and refute these false teachings on their own terms.

 

[Returning_Home]

Of course there are people who have the gift of prophecy. It is only a mormon idea that Christians believe none have this gift.

What is not biblical or Apostolic, is the mormon idea that God designates lds leaders with this gift, and no one else.

The bible says some have a gift of prophecy, it says nothing of Christ’s Church being led by prophets.

Jesus is the final Revelation. I have yet to hear a mormon tell us what, exactly, He left out that would need to be canonized. Look to the Cross, and you’ll know He forgot nothing.

100% agreed. This is the Mormon misconception of the church: eternally lead by prophets and apostles. Since both are the foundation of the church, they had a function that was fulfilled. Likewise, just because you use concrete for the foundation of a house doesn’t mean that you use it on the roof, too.

 

[SirThomasMore]

The problem, then, would be that whoever taught you such a thing was so completely misinformed having not read the Bible nor understood the one statement of Joseph Smith on the subject that “God was once a man like us”, that they were able to misinform you. “From all eternity” and “Alpha” would mean the beginning of eternity as we know it, and at that point in time, Jehovah was indeed Alpha, the FirstBorn, He who was God the Son as Alpha and Omega. He indeed “changes not”, nor does the Father change–They are omnipotent. They change not.

That is simply not true. God was very clear. Your teachings contradict God. You cannot explain your way out of that

But to become a joint heir with Christ is to become precisely what He prayed for His followers to become–which is to become “one with Them.” To become perfect, perfectly good, perfectly obedient with a perfect unity with the will of the Father and the Son. It is to become able to have the “faith of a grain of mustard seed.” It is to “rule the nations”. It is to "be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Nice try. But becoming like God and becomings Gods are two different things. Your prophets have taught false doctrine and led many good people away from the true God. They have a lot to answer for someday
"

 

[ParkerD]

Nice try. But becoming like God and becomings Gods are two different things.

That would certainly depend on your definition of the word “god”, I hope–unless you think there is out there somewhere in the heavens a placard or a sign or a heavenly memo that reads “the definition of the word “god” is whatever the Nicene creed says it is, whenever those theologians and politicians get together and form that definition”.

I certainly believe God knows Who He is, and did not need the Nicene council to define Who He is so that it could be “understood”. Isaiah knew who God is. Christ declared Who God is, and said “I Am that I Am.” He said He was Jehovah, the Anointed One. He said He was the stone whom the builders rejected, become the head of the corner.

I also believe that John was completely inspired when he wrote his vision, and when he used the words “He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.” If a son, then an heir, and a joint heir. That is what it means to become “like God”–it is to become a son of God, through divine grace and through sanctification by the Holy Ghost. It is to become completely perfect, not just “perfect in his generation.” It is to be without blemish, without spot, and with the power of faith that moves mountains, because of learning to have perfect faith and being cleansed every whit from every wrong thought or action–only through Christ, the Only Begotten Son who saves and redeems those who trust in Him with faith and covenant obedience.

 

[SirThomasMore]

That would certainly depend on your definition of the word “god”,

Nope. It would depend on what God said . And what God said is different than what Joseph Smith said. And I choose God. You choose Joseph.

To believe Joseph means you believe God lied.

 

[ParkerD]

Nope. It would depend on what God said . And what God said is different than what Joseph Smith said. And I choose God. You choose Joseph.

To believe Joseph means you believe God lied.

No. It means I believe the Bible to be literally true. It means I believe the Holy Ghost really does teach an individual person such as myself, one-to-one, and that through the Bible and the Holy Ghost, I can be assured that God declares Himself to me and I don’t need a Nicene creed to tell me what to think–nor do I rely on the teachings of Joseph Smith but can access the Holy Ghost because of understanding how He guides to revealed knowledge.

Got it? I have the kind of personal relationship described by Paul and by the Savior, that means I am not a third-party witness, I am a first-person witness–I know what I know, and the Bible is a sure and pure teacher of Who God is and what it means to become “like God”. The Nicene creed is a fourth-party witness of things they had no personal witness of. That’s why it is called a “creed” and why it isn’t merely drawn directly from Biblical scriptural verses and saying they are true as they are written. They evidently didn’t think the Bible was “good enough” as is to declare Who God is.

 

[SirThomasMore]

No. It means I believe the Bible to be literally true.

No, because if you did, you would not believe Joseph Smith, who completely contradicts God

 

[ParkerD]

No, because if you did, you would not believe Joseph Smith, who completely contradicts God

As in…?

 

[ParkerD]

No. It means I believe the Bible to be literally true. It means I believe the Holy Ghost really does teach an individual person such as myself, one-to-one, and that through the Bible and the Holy Ghost, I can be assured that God declares Himself to me and I don’t need a Nicene creed to tell me what to think–nor do I rely on the teachings of Joseph Smith but can access the Holy Ghost because of understanding how He guides to revealed knowledge.

Got it? I have the kind of personal relationship described by Paul and by the Savior, that means I am not a third-party witness, I am a first-person witness–I know what I know, and the Bible is a sure and pure teacher of Who God is and what it means to become “like God”. The Nicene creed is a fourth-party witness of things they had no personal witness of. That’s why it is called a “creed” and why it isn’t merely drawn directly from Biblical scriptural verses and saying they are true as they are written. They evidently didn’t think the Bible was “good enough” as is to declare Who God is.

I reiterate my point here.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Your prophets have taught false doctrine and led many good people away from the true God. They have a lot to answer for someday.

This reminds me of something I have heard Fr. Corapi say several times. He often speaks of the obligation he has, and really all of us have, to communicate the Truth, even if the Truth is not popular/not something people want to hear. As he puts it “I’m not going to hell for you”.

Another quote is “At the end, forever, we will be in heaven or hell. Period.”

Putting these two together makes it very clear ~ anyone teaching or following false doctrine takes a huge risk. An eternal risk. It’s not always enough to be a “nice person”.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

You’ve reiterated your point. Well, all right. But what do you even mean by that? You are obviously not a first person witness to Bible events. You were not alive in the time of the Bible. Your definition of “first person witness” seems to mean something like “person who has listened to and believed the Holy Spirit”. Which is great and all but it is not the same as being a first person witness. That means you were there.

EDIT: Also, a creed is a statement of beliefs. It is possible to be a first person witness to events and still believe a creed about those events.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Parker, and I reiterate mine. To believe what Joseph Smith says means you believe God and jesus are liars. There is no middle ground

 

[Javl]

Hi Parker:

Nice to see you again. May I ask a couple questions of you? I understand that the LDS church says ( teaches? ) that the Bible is also used “as far as it is correctly translated”. Is this still true and what is your understanding/opinion of this statement? Thank you.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach