Mormon Claims

[zaffiroborant]

Since we both know that the LDS teaches that men may become gods and that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are all separate and distinct godss, your claims here hold no water.

And then there is the other god (or rather goddess), Heavenly Mother, the god the LDS family never talks about.

 

[SirThomasMore]

And then there is the other god (or rather goddess), Heavenly Mother, the god the LDS family never talks about.

True. All humans past and present are a result of “Heavenly Father” and Heavenly Mother" had sexual realtions

 

[Returning_Home]

True. All humans past and present are a result of “Heavenly Father” and Heavenly Mother" had sexual realtions

That’s really one of thmajor problems with the notion that God has a body of flesh and bone; the only logical conclusion, base on the words of Joseph F. Smith, is that God literally had physical sex with Mary. Since the Mormon god is the literal father of all peoples’ spirits, it therefore took some sort of foul celestial incest to produce Jesus Christ.

Ick.

 

[ParkerD]

Hi Parker:

Nice to see you again. May I ask a couple questions of you? I understand that the LDS church says ( teaches? ) that the Bible is also used “as far as it is correctly translated”. Is this still true and what is your understanding/opinion of this statement? Thank you.

Len

Shalom haMeshiach

Hi, Len (Javl),
Peace to you also.

One of the LDS “Articles of Faith” says “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.” This is a statement of basic beliefs, and is still used and taught.

I personally think the word use in that particular sentence created more of a negative connotation today than was intended at the time. Joseph Smith wrote those words in a letter to a newspaper editor, as a simple explanation of beliefs. He was very much aware of there being different translations of the Bible, so he knew they couldn’t all be “perfectly correct”, and knew also that there was a human element in the translation process which would always necessitate the Holy Spirit guiding the person doing a translation in order to preserve the original intent of the prophet/writer and thus the meaning inspired by God.

LDS believe, and I believe, that the Holy Spirit inspired and guided William Tyndale in his translation of the English Bible, but by that point in time he did not necessarily have a “perfect” original to work from to do the translation into English. But I think the King James Bible can be relied upon as the true word of God, even while allowing for there having been an omission (by the original compilers, whether inadvertently or because of illegibility of the original) of a few passages that could have given greater clarity had they not been lost, including the omission of a few words that changed meaning in a couple of places–but by and large, the word of God that is a totally trustworthy source for getting the knowledge of God and His purposes on earth–especially when a single passage is not relied on as the only source of a particular doctrine.

 

[ParkerD]

The notion that God the Father could not overshadow Mary through the Holy Spirit and have her become “great with child” (His Only Begotten Son) while still being a virgin in the very specific meaning of that word, seems to not acknowledge current medical science and instead takes a very dim view of the omnipotence of God the Father. It makes me wonder whenever I see this topic discussed, “do these people not believe God is really omnipotent, or do they just not have an inkling of current medical science?”

 

[catholic-rcia]

I reiterate my point here.

Parker I see pride and ego in your post here. Sit down in a quiet room, take yourself out of it and read it aloud. The Creed is dead on, the scriptures are laced with it everywhere like gold in quartz.
In Christ
Rich

We Believe…

in one God, (Ex 20:2-3, Is 45:5, 1 Cor 8:4) the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, (Gen 14:19, Ex 20:2-3) of all that is seen and unseen. (Col 1:16)

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, (Luke 1:35) begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God. Begotten not made, one in Being with the Father. (Heb 1:3) Through Him all things were made. (John 1:2-3, Col 1:15-17))

For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven: (John 3:13) by the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, (Matt 1:18) and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; (John 19:16) he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; (1Cor 15:3-4) he ascended into heaven (Luke 24:51) and is seated at the right hand of the Father. (Col 3:1) He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, (2 Tim 4:1) and his Kingdom will have no end. (Luke 1:33)

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, (Acts 2:17) who proceeds from the Father and the Son. (John 14:16) With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. (1 Peter 1:10-11)

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. (Rom 12:5) We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.(Acts 2:38) We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the life of the world to come. (Rom 6:5) Amen

 

[SirThomasMore]

Parker cannot get past the fact that for mormon doctrine to work, God must be a liar. And in order for their to be a need for restoration, Jesus must be a liar

 

[ParkerD]

catholic-rcia,
Of course that would be the easily drawn rejoinder. One who knows what they know by the witness of the Holy Ghost, “must be prideful”.

Well, Paul didn’t think so. He was “not ashamed of the gospel of Christ.” Neither am I. He was not ashamed to declare he knew by the power of the Holy Ghost, and could therefore testify as a first person witness. Nor am I ashamed to do so. I would do it in front of a crowd with rocks in their hands. I would do it in front of any crowd, if the Spirit was guiding me to speak up. It is just not a problem with me, and if you want to call that pride, then go ahead by all means.

In the meantime, peace to you and all your friends. The beliefs you hold are fine with me. Just because we differ doesn’t mean I think you have lost anything, since what you believe is exactly and precisely what you want to believe, and it encompasses repentance and forgiveness so those are good qualities to follow in life.

 

[SirThomasMore]

catholic-rcia,
Of course that would be the easily drawn rejoinder. One who knows what they know by the witness of the Holy Ghost, “must be prideful”.

Well, Paul didn’t think so. He was “not ashamed of the gospel of Christ.” Neither am I. He was not ashamed to declare he knew by the power of the Holy Ghost, and could therefore testify as a first person witness. Nor am I ashamed to do so. I would do it in front of a crowd with rocks in their hands. I would do it in front of any crowd, if the Spirit was guiding me to speak up. It is just not a problem with me, and if you want to call that pride, then go ahead by all means.

No, pride is believing your alleged prophet knows more than God. Isaiah is clear. Mormon Doctrine is False

 

[Marc_Anthony]

The difference between you and Paul is that paul WAS a first person witness. He was alive during the time of Christ. If he never saw Jesus before the Ascension, we know he saw him in a vision after being struck blind at Damascus. He was not just someone writing down the events either, he was an active participant who experienced the events personally. His biblical epistles are often recordings of things he participated in.

Paul was there when the Sacred Scripture was written and was an active participant in the events. That is the definition of a first-person witness. Many people today are inspired by the Holy Spirit, but just because the Holy Spirit has dwelled within them does not mean they were first person witnesses to biblical events.

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

Parker cannot get past the fact that for mormon doctrine to work, God must be a liar. And in order for their to be a need for restoration, Jesus must be a liar

Very true. And odd that God’s Church failed in the Middle East and in America.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Parker let me highlight what I am seeing

Originally Posted by ParkerD forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*No. It means I believe the Bible to be literally true. It means I believe the Holy Ghost really does teach an individual person such as myself, one-to-one, and that through the Bible and the Holy Ghost, I can be assured that God declares Himself to me and Idon’t need a Nicene creed to tell me what to think–nor do I rely on the teachings of Joseph Smith but can access the Holy Ghost **because of understanding how He guides to revealed knowledge. ***

Got it? I have the kind of personal relationship described by Paul and by the Savior (Jesus) that means I am not a third-party witness, I am a first-person witness–I know what I know, and the Bible is a sure and pure teacher of Who God is and what it means to become “like God”. The Nicene creed is a fourth-party witness of things they had no personal witness of. That’s why it is called a “creed” and why it isn’t merely drawn directly from Biblical scriptural verses and saying they are true as they are written. They evidently didn’t think the Bible was “good enough” as is to declare Who God is.

***Parker Is this really coming from the spirit of truth Parker? Is this how the Spirit speaks through you? ***

*Knowing Jesus, Knowing the Creed, Again Christians find it to be dead on as to whom God is, what the Scriptures teach, what has been revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. The Church came before the Bible that you speak of, it is the Catholic Churches Diary. It is the same today as it was of days gone past. You cannot take it lterally, if you did than God would have wings and the words in His image could lead people astray, even to the point of making out God to be a man. God is creator…God is spirit…we are simply Gods creation. Created by God through Jesus. Our goal is to be with Jesus forever, no progression other than being all together with and in Jesus. The scriptures are clear on this. On the Creed. *

*Rich *
*www.utahmission.com *

 

[catholic-rcia]

catholic-rcia,
Of course that would be the easily drawn rejoinder. One who knows what they know by the witness of the Holy Ghost, “must be prideful”.

Well, Paul didn’t think so. He was “not ashamed of the gospel of Christ.” Neither am I. He was not ashamed to declare he knew by the power of the Holy Ghost, and could therefore testify as a first person witness. Nor am I ashamed to do so. I would do it in front of a crowd with rocks in their hands. I would do it in front of any crowd, if the Spirit was guiding me to speak up. It is just not a problem with me, and if you want to call that pride, then go ahead by all means.

In the meantime, peace to you and all your friends. The beliefs you hold are fine with me. Just because we differ doesn’t mean I think you have lost anything, since what you believe is exactly and precisely what you want to believe, and it encompasses repentance and forgiveness so those are good qualities to follow in life.

 

[catholic-rcia]

The difference between you and Paul is that paul WAS a first person witness. He was alive during the time of Christ. If he never saw Jesus before the Ascension, we know he saw him in a vision after being struck blind at Damascus. He was not just someone writing down the events either, he was an active participant who experienced the events personally. His biblical epistles are often recordings of things he participated in.

Paul was there when the Sacred Scripture was written and was an active participant in the events. That is the definition of a first-person witness. Many people today are inspired by the Holy Spirit, but just because the Holy Spirit has dwelled within them does not mean they were first person witnesses to biblical events.

Yes
Take the 12 apostles, being first person witnesses is what sets them apart. I love Paul because he shows us the mercy of God. How he such a sinner can be forgiven and loved just as much as the next. He shows us how God does not wait for us to turn to Him in order to be loved by Him. God is with each of us even in our sin, as only He can bring us out of it by way of his Cross, by our confession. . When we face our sinful nature like Paul did and understand the message of the Cross we don’t want to sin out of love for Jesus. Not to place ouselves above those we percive as greater sinners, but out of love for Jesus. We begin to have compassion for those we once felt none. Its not about what we can do by our own power as that would be our sinful nature, coming out through pride and ego, going around the cross. . . Its what Christ can do in us when we give up all to Him. He is the credit due. He is the one and only loved by the Father. If we are in Him we are loved as well. Its all about Trinity, is all about Jesus. The gift to us us is that as created beings we get to share in it. We are given what Jesus has always had with the Father and we are given to Him as a gift from His Father. We have to know our place in creation and forever be joy filled, giving eternal praise to God, in Jesus through the Holy Spirit, in being gifted a place within the Holy Trinity.

 

[ParkerD]

Isaiah is clear.

Isaiah is indeed clear. He saw that there would be a “marvelous work and a wonder” in that the “deaf would hear the words of the book”, in the midst of a time when many people would believe in God and yet with “their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men.” (Isaiah 29:13,14,18)

Isaiah thus saw a major difference in beliefs happening among people who declared their belief in God.

 

[ParkerD]

To the general reader:

The Holy Spirit gives a personal, first-person witness to the soul that is just as powerful and memorable as a vision or a visitation by a heavenly messenger.

His is a pure and perfect witness, but those unfamiliar with His witness will neither recognize the possibility of such a witness, nor allow that others may have such in their life. So, read on (if reading last post first as I do), and notice that when I have stated I have a first-person-witness, then that is exactly what I meant to say. To deny such would be to deny His sure and perfect witness, even the witness promised by Christ and the witness given at the day of Pentecost through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to those who believed on Jesus’ name and in His redeeming grace, and were ready to make covenant promises of obedience. This is an undeniable witness. Mock me if you wish, scorn the witness if you wish, but it makes no difference to me one iota.

 

[Javl]

Thank you for your response and explanation, Parker. Although I may not agree with it, I now do understand your and the LDS stance on the Bible.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

 

[SirThomasMore]

To the general reader:

The Holy Spirit gives a personal, first-person witness to the soul that is just as powerful and memorable as a vision or a visitation by a heavenly messenger.

His is a pure and perfect witness, but those unfamiliar with His witness will neither recognize the possibility of such a witness, nor allow that others may have such in their life. So, read on (if reading last post first as I do), and notice that when I have stated I have a first-person-witness, then that is exactly what I meant to say. To deny such would be to deny His sure and perfect witness, even the witness promised by Christ and the witness given at the day of Pentecost through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to those who believed on Jesus’ name and in His redeeming grace, and were ready to make covenant promises of obedience. This is an undeniable witness. Mock me if you wish, scorn the witness if you wish, but it makes no difference to me one iota.

It was not THE Holy Spirit that gave you a witness because THE Holy Spirit cannot lie and we have seen that the only way that rhe doctrine of Joe Smith can be true is if God is a liar. God is not a liar, Parker

 

[ParkerD]

Thomas,
I had asked, “as in”?

If you are saying that anyone who doesn’t believe the Nicene creed thinks God was not “telling the truth” when He allowed that political and religious group of men to come up with their “definition” of God, then that would be because God allows what He chooses to allow. He allows the free will choice of humankind–even to the point of allowing there to be a definition of Him that is going to be less than accurate and less than divinely inspired.

So, your free will choice comes to the fore in your statement, and it becomes a matter of following the principles outlined by Paul in his letter to the Corinthians. (See 1 Corinthians 2 and 3). You certainly get to believe what you want to believe, and go out of your way to get anyone to listen to you who will listen to you, but the Holy Ghost is a far more credible witness than what your statements provide, plus He has the consistency of bringing that witness to millions of people as well as having inspired Biblical truth to show how that witness is obtained and to show that there are ways to figure it out using the Bible as the guide to obtain such.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I didn’t scorn the witness, I scorned your definition of first-person witness. You apparently have had some sort of vision of the Holy Spirit. If true this is wonderful, but it does not make you a first-person witness in the same sense as Paul.