Mormon Confusion

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I never said they were my beliefs they I was raised in a mormon community, but my parents were and are not affiliated with any religion, niether am I. I am merely testing out other christian religions against what I know about the mormons. there happy? And if jesus was married or not I got a different answer from another catholic. And I have found that in many instances mormon leaders have quoted C.S. Lewis. like it says in their article of faith they seek after good things. So why reject something that is good even if it comes from someone outside your faith?
Say one man who lived a life of lying, cheating, beating his family, neglecting them cheating on his wife, stole, and was a mormon or catholic, and another man who never heard of jesus christ and tried to live an honourable life and died with out knowing christ which one would go to heaven and which would go to hell?
 
I never said they were my beliefs they I was raised in a mormon community, but my parents were and are not affiliated with any religion, niether am I. I am merely testing out other christian religions against what I know about the mormons. there happy? And if jesus was married or not I got a different answer from another catholic. And I have found that in many instances mormon leaders have quoted C.S. Lewis. like it says in their article of faith they seek after good things. So why reject something that is good even if it comes from someone outside your faith?
Say one man who lived a life of lying, cheating, beating his family, neglecting them cheating on his wife, stole, and was a mormon or catholic, and another man who never heard of jesus christ and tried to live an honourable life and died with out knowing christ which one would go to heaven and which would go to hell?
You claim to be investigating religions, so then instead of talking with people from other faiths (why did you chose a non Catholic board to learn?) about Catholicism look to Catholic sources for their doctrine? I don’t see any attempt to understand Catholicism in your approach.
 
I never said they were my beliefs they I was raised in a mormon community, but my parents were and are not affiliated with any religion, niether am I. I am merely testing out other christian religions against what I know about the mormons. there happy?
Never was unhappy.
And if jesus was married or not I got a different answer from another catholic.
Then look to the Catechism of the Catholic Church…a poorly catechized Catholic is not all that rare.
And I have found that in many instances mormon leaders have quoted C.S. Lewis. like it says in their article of faith they seek after good things.
They may quote CS Lewis, but most likely out of context. He wasn’t a Mormon! He was Anglican.
So why reject something that is good even if it comes from someone outside your faith?
All religions contain bits of truth. I don’t reject truth, I accept what I believe is the whole truth.
Say one man who lived a life of lying, cheating, beating his family, neglecting them cheating on his wife, stole, and was a mormon or catholic, and another man who never heard of jesus christ and tried to live an honourable life and died with out knowing christ which one would go to heaven and which would go to hell?
God is judge, not I. If such a Catholic did not confess his sins and repent before his death, a high chance he is not going to heaven…but again, God is judge, not I.

In the case of a non-Catholic, the Catholic church teaches that all will be judged according to their knowledge and beliefs…God is merciful, and we do not believe that a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ would be judged for not having that knowledge.
 
I personally don’t have a religious prefrence, but I have been reading up on mormon doctrine and would like to know why they aren’t called christians? The way I see it all religions have similarities with all other religions. And in christian religions Jesus Christ is the focus of their religion(s). Now according to most dictionaries being a christian is defined by professing a belief in jesus christ and following his teachings as recorded in the bible. Now to me this would easily qualify mormons as christians. I mean just because there are many differences in doctrine between catholics and protestants they aren’t saying one another isn’t christian.
Mormons worship a different christ. He did not always exist. He was the “love child” of their god and Mary, as disgusting as that sounds. There are many, many other differences. The most you can say is that, to the extent that they may refer to the KJV bible, they are pseudo-christian. As you are no doubt aware, they may use lies and deception in the furtherance of their organization.

They are poly-theists, believing in one god for now, but that there were an infinite number of equal gods before him. A god who did not create all matter in the universe, but merely co-existed with it. A god who was made. This is a different, non-Judeo-Christian god, no matter how much some may bleat and whimper about it. Expect some to come rushing in here and play the victim.

They use similar names and terms, but with diametrically opposed meaning. This is to lure unsuspecting true Christians away to the LDS organization. Oh, they believe they are doing the right thing, but all history, all evidence, all common sense applied to their claims shows that they labor in vain.

There is absolutely no physical evidence to support one word in the BOM. Notice that there are no pilgrimages to the Mormon “holy land”, since no one knows where, or even if, they are.

The One, True Eternal God has always left scriptural evidence of many writers, and physical evidence of His work. Do not be deceived.
 
Mormons are Christian. But there is no concept of heresy in Mormonism, so individual Mormons can get away with a lot of variation in belief, including many leaders in the church, which tends to confuse the matter to outsiders (and some insiders).
Tsuzuki, please explain the following total contradiction in terms from your signature:
Mormon Rite Catholic
Tiber Swim Team 2008
unfettered-mormon.org
A Mormon Rite Catholic? Impossible. Tiber Swim team with a link to a purely LDS site? Deception. The caution flag has been thrown.
 
It is a paradox. Meditate on it.
No, thanks! It is an impossibility. LDS has a different god, a different christ. I know that LDS may deceive in “defense” (building up) of the faith, but this is beyond the pale. Choose a faith, even the wrong one, but choose. Otherwise, you deceive and mislead those who are seeking the truth.
 
With God, all things are possible.
And, with Satan, all things appear possible. You are lapsing into stereotypical LDS deception. This is a great disservice to the truth. The deception is obvious to even new Catholics. It is others seeking the truth who are not served by your slight of hand. Please stop if you wish to remain a member.
 
Deception? Pray tell, where do these other Jesuses come from? There is only one.
You should know very well that the substance of the LDS Jesus is completely and totally different from the Christian Jesus. Anyone who studies religions and the occult so much must know that. You are not fooling us.
 
I personally don’t have a religious prefrence, but I have been reading up on mormon doctrine and would like to know why they aren’t called christians? The way I see it all religions have similarities with all other religions. And in christian religions Jesus Christ is the focus of their religion(s). Now according to most dictionaries being a christian is defined by professing a belief in jesus christ and following his teachings as recorded in the bible. Now to me this would easily qualify mormons as christians. I mean just because there are many differences in doctrine between catholics and protestants they aren’t saying one another isn’t christian.
The real answer to that is found in psychology rather theology. The LDS Church claims that historical and traditional Christianity is apostate. It went into apostasy early on in its history, and lost the priesthood authority and it once possessed; and that the LDS Church is a restoration of the original and true form of Christianity. Now this is very hard on traditional Christian churches, because it pulls the rug from under their feet. If there is even the slightest truth in the LDS claims, that means that they lose all their credibility and legitimacy altogether! So they are faced with a serious challenge. If they grant the slightest credence to LDS claims, that would be like committing theological suicide! So they basically have to either shut down shop and tell all their followers to become Mormons; or else to defend themselves by coming up with the most drastic countermeasure imaginable—so they have come up with the idea that “Mormons are not Christians” as the ultimate solution—not that it is doing them any good mind you. They can’t stop the rise and progress of Mormonism. It is growing and increasing in leaps and bounds as prophesied, despite their best efforts. They can damn themselves trying; but they will never be able to stop the progress of Mormonism, because it is the work of the Lord.

On the subject of Mormonism not being Christian because of their rejection of the Trinitarian theology, that is something that has been discussed many times before, such as in this thread. I recommend you to watch the video. If the video is to slow to watch directly off the Internet, try downloading it first to you computer, and then watching it. You can download it by clicking on it with the right mouse button, and selecting “save as” form the menu.

zerinus
 
I belive there was one instance in the bible of a man who was teaching or healing or something in Jesus’s name and when the apostle found out about it they wanted to rough him up so to speak, but Jesus said the man was not against them he was for them. That tells me there is good and truth in all christian religions.
Agreed. That is the Mormon position. Our belief in the Apostasy does not mean that there are not true Christians in other churches.

zerinus
 
All this talk of a different christ is confusing! I asked a mormon and they said that mormons believe that christ is the literal son of god. Now as far as christ being a love child I was told that how christ was concieved no one knows. So how do you believe christ came into this world? Is he not part god? I was also told that christ has not always existed because he is the son of god. And I was also told that pilgramages to holy lands is not what is truly important. Its the teachings of christ.
You claim to have “common sense” and yet you can’t grasp the concept of polythiesm. Polythiesm is not only the the belief in more than one god, but the active pracitce of worshiping them. this obvioulsy exlculdes mormons. and if jospeh smith was so wrong and created the mormon church for money, power and women it appears that he didn’t get it. I mean he died for what he believed in, and in life he was always being beaten up and stuff. Would a self made lie be worth ruining your life?
 
I personally don’t have a religious prefrence, but I have been reading up on mormon doctrine and would like to know why they aren’t called christians? The way I see it all religions have similarities with all other religions. And in christian religions Jesus Christ is the focus of their religion(s). Now according to most dictionaries being a christian is defined by professing a belief in jesus christ and following his teachings as recorded in the bible. Now to me this would easily qualify mormons as christians. I mean just because there are many differences in doctrine between catholics and protestants they aren’t saying one another isn’t christian.
Mormons believe in three separate gods for the Trinity, not one God in three persons, for starters. That being said, they deny Christ as God and their baptisms are invalid. That is why they are not considered Christian.
 
Mormons believe in three separate gods for the Trinity, not one God in three persons, for starters. That being said, they deny Christ as God and their baptisms are invalid. That is why they are not considered Christian.
For what it’s worth, here is a fairly precise explanation of the difference between the Mormon and mainstream Christian doctrines of the Trinity, from my Mormon point of view. There are several issues that need to be considered.

What is God?

Mainstream Christianity teaches that God is an indivisible, “simple” (i.e., “without parts” or completely homogeneous), eternally unchanging spiritual essence. This doctrine was adopted by Christians in the second century from the Greek philosophy current at the time. For example, here is a quotation from the pagan Middle Platonist philosopher, Numenius.
But let no one laugh, if I affirm that the name of the incorporeal is “essence” and “being.” And the cause of the name “being” is that it has not been generated nor will be destroyed, nor is it subject to any other motion at all, nor any change for better or for worse; but is simple and unchangeable, and in the same idea, and neither willingly departs from its sameness, nor is compelled by any other to depart. (Numenius, quoted by Eusebius, Preparation for the Gospel 11:10 )
Compare Numenius’s description with that of Irenaeus, a Christian writer of the late second century, who had adopted the philosophical view of God.
For the Father of all is at a vast distance from those affections and passions which operate among men. He is a simple, uncompounded Being, without diverse members, and altogether like, and equal to himself, since He is wholly understanding, and wholly spirit, and wholly thought, and wholly intelligence, and wholly reason, and wholly hearing, and wholly seeing, and wholly light, and the whole source of all that is good–even as the religious and pious are wont to speak concerning God. (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2:13:3, in ANF 1:374.)
Tertullian, a Christian who wrote at the turn of the third century, explicitly stated that his idea of the Father was essentially that of the philosophers.
Whatever attributes therefore you require as worthy of God, must be found in the Father, who is invisible and unapproachable, and placid, and (so to speak) the God of the philosophers; whereas those qualities which you censure as unworthy must be supposed to be in the Son . . . . (Tertullian, Against Marcion 2:27, in ANF 3:319.)
Paul had warned the earliest Christians not to be deceived by philosophy. “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ” (Colossians 2:8). Certainly earliest Christianity and Greek philosophy had some things in common. Was this one of them, or was it one of those things that Paul warned against?

Mormons believe that this was an alteration of original Christian teachings, because we believe that God is “anthropomorphic,” in that he has a body in human form. This contention is abundantly supported by modern historical scholarship. For example, Christopher Stead, a professor at the Cambridge Divinity School, wrote an excellent book on how Greek philosophy was incorporated into Christian teaching. He wrote this about how the Biblical authors pictured God.
“The Hebrews . . . pictured the God whom they worshipped as having a body and mind like our own, though transcending humanity in the splendour of his appearance, in his power, his wisdom, and the constancy of his care for his creatures.” (Christopher Stead, Philosophy in Christian Antiquity, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1996, 120.)
A clear example is found in the early Jewish Christian writing, the Clementine Homilies.
And Simon said: “I should like to know, Peter, if you really believe that the shape of man has been moulded after the shape of God.” And Peter said: “I am really quite certain, Simon, that this is the case . . . . It is the shape of the just God.” (Clementine Homilies 16:19, in ANF 8:316.)
Origen, a third-century Christian writer, said that while he and many other Christians accepted a philosophical view of God, the Jews and some Christians viewed God as anthropomorphic. He said this was not a settled teaching within Christianity at that time.
“The Jews indeed, but also some of our people, supposed that God should be understood as a man, that is, adorned with human members and human appearance. But the philosophers despise these stories as fabulous and formed in the likeness of poetic fictions.” (Origen, Homilies on Genesis 3:1)
We shall inquire, however, whether the thing which Greek philosophers call asomaton, or “incorporeal,” is found in holy Scripture under another name. For it is also to be a subject of investigation how God himself is to be understood,–whether as corporeal, and formed according to some shape, or of a different nature from bodies,–a point which is not clearly indicated in our teaching. (Origen, De Principiis Preface 9, in ANF 4:241.)
Mainstream Christians might object that the Bible says that “God is Spirit” (John 4:24). But what does that mean? John also said that “God is light” (1 John 1:5), and “God is love” (1 John 4:8). Paul said that “he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit” (1 Corinthians 6:17), although men obviously have both spirits and bodies. Why do mainstream Christians automatically assume that “God is Spirit” means that God has no body? Anglican historian and Bishop of London, J.W.C. Wand, explained, “It is easy to see what influence this school of thought * must have had upon Christian leaders. It was from it that they learnt what was involved in a metaphysical sense by calling God a Spirit.” (J.W.C Wand, A History of the Early Church to A.D. 500, New York, Routledge, 1994, 140.) You guessed it—Christians got this idea from the Greek philosophers. On the other hand, Christopher Stead writes that the Hebrews would have given a completely different interpretation to John 4:24.
By saying that God is spiritual, we do not mean that he has no body . . . but rather that he is the source of a mysterious life-giving power and energy that animates the human body, and himself possesses this energy in the fullest measure. (Stead, Philosophy in Christian Antiquity, 98.)
**

Continued in next post…**
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**(Continued from last post…)

How is God “One” or “More Than One”?**

If God is an eternally indivisible, unchanging, essence that is absolutely homogeneous (without parts), then how do we deal with the New Testament’s assertions that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all “God,” when the Bible clearly says there is “one God”? They are clearly presented as separate persons, after all. Mainstream Christianity developed the idea that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct “Persons” within a single Divine Being. How there can be distinct “Persons” within a Being that is “without parts” is supposed to be a mystery too lofty for mortal minds to comprehend.

On the other hand, Mormons say that there is “one God” in the senses that 1) the Father is the monarch of the Universe, and 2) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are completely unified in will, purpose, love, and covenant. This kind of oneness is familiar to humans, although we have never experienced it to that kind of degree. We can support our idea of the Divine Unity by appealing to Jesus’ prayer in John 17.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Note that Jesus said that the disciples were to be one in each other and one in the Father and Son AS the Father and Son are one in each other. Where else does the Bible define the Divine Unity? Nowhere. Therefore, I conclude that mainstream Christians got their idea of God in “one Being” by trying to reconcile the Bible with their philosophical definition of God, rather than from the scriptures.

And the fact is that even after Christians adopted a philosophical definition of God, they still conceived of the Trinity as three Beings, differing in rank and glory, but unified in will. Some of them even referred to Jesus as a “second God,” just as Mormons often do. here are some quotations to support this contention.
I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures,[of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things–above whom there is no other God–wishes to announce to them… I shall endeavour to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things,–numerically, I mean, not[distinct] in will. (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 56, in ANF 1:223, brackets in original.)
Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judæa, in the times of Tiberius Cæsar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true 167 God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove. (Justin Martyr, First Apology 13.)
[W]hile I recognize the Son, I assert His distinction as second to the Father. (Tertullian, Against Praxeas 7, in ANF 3:602.)
“We are not afraid to speak, in one sense of two Gods, in another sense of one God.” (Origen, Dial Heracl. 2:3)
“And these, while they are two, considered as persons or subsistences, are one in unity of thought, in harmony and in identity of will.” (Origen, Against Celsus 8:12, in ANF 4:643-644.)
“But the Paraclete being less than Christ, moreover, by this very fact proves Christ to be God, from whom He has received what He declares . . . .” (Novatian, On the Trinity 16, in ANF 5:625.)
Remember how Moses calls the Being, Who appeared to the patriarchs, and often delivered to them the oracles afterwards written down in Scripture sometimes God and Lord, and sometimes the Angel of the Lord. He clearly implies that this was not the Omnipotent God, but a secondary Being, rightly called the God and Lord of holy men, but the Angel of the Most High His Father. (Eusebius of Caesarea, The Proof of the Gospel 1:5.)
This idea that the Son and Spirit are gods, or part of the One God, yet separate and subordinate to the Father is called “Subordinationism.” This belief is now a heresy within mainstream Christianity, but Mormons hold to it, as did the earliest Christians. R.P.C. Hansen, a well-known Anglican historian of early Christianity, summarized as follows.
Indeed, until Athanasius began writing, every single theologian, East and West, had postulated some form of Subordinationism. It could, about the year 300, have been described as a fixed part of catholic theology. (Hansen, R., “The Achievement of Orthodoxy in the Fourth Century AD,” in Williams, ed., The Making of Orthodoxy, 153.)
 
All this talk of a different christ is confusing! I asked a mormon and they said that mormons believe that christ is the literal son of god. Now as far as christ being a love child I was told that how christ was concieved no one knows. So how do you believe christ came into this world? Is he not part god? I was also told that christ has not always existed because he is the son of god. And I was also told that pilgramages to holy lands is not what is truly important. Its the teachings of christ.
You claim to have “common sense” and yet you can’t grasp the concept of polythiesm. Polythiesm is not only the the belief in more than one god, but the active pracitce of worshiping them. this obvioulsy exlculdes mormons. and if jospeh smith was so wrong and created the mormon church for money, power and women it appears that he didn’t get it. I mean he died for what he believed in, and in life he was always being beaten up and stuff. Would a self made lie be worth ruining your life?
It is a henotheistic view, mormons believe that many gods exist, and indeed, that men can become gods themselves…adding to the pool of lots o’ gods.

They believe they are commanded to worship one God.

So, you must learn to understand a mormon’s terms. When they says Jesus is God, they mean, He is one God of many. So to them, Jesus is God, and Jesus is A God, is saying the same thing.

The major difference in WHO Jesus is can be summed up easily:

-Catholics, and every Christian, believe GOD BECAME MAN…that is, Jesus has always been God. Catholics believe that Jesus is God incarnate, born of a Virgin. While he was alive, we believe he was fully human AND fully divine. As God, he lost none of his divinity. Catholics believe that His human body was made immortal at His resurrection.

-Mormons believe that MAN BECAME GOD. They believed that Jesus (and the Father) are created. They believe Jesus inherited a God gene of some kind from God the Father, in the same way that you inherit your parent’s genes. While Jesus was alive, they believe he was a demi-God. Because of his obedience to the Father, he EARNED his godhood, and when his body was made immortal, he was also exalted to godhood.

Mormons, as I have said numerous times, have redefined every Christian term. You cannot read anything written by them, couched in Christian language, and say “see, they talk like Christians, so they are Christian”. They aren’t.

It’s like me, telling you here on this BB that you are Mormon. All the evidence is there that you are, but you say you aren’t. So, if I insist you are Mormon, I tell everyone you know that you are Mormon, and list out the things you said you believe…am I describing you, or someone else? Would your friends think I were talking about you, or someone else? Would they say, that is a different jbrdu08 than I know. Would that make you two different people? Or, would it mean that I could possibly be wrong about who you are and that what I am telling other people, is incorrect?
 
Mormons are Christian. But there is no concept of heresy in Mormonism, so individual Mormons can get away with a lot of variation in belief, including many leaders in the church, which tends to confuse the matter to outsiders (and some insiders).
Tell that to D. Michael Quinn, the Toscano’s, and quite a few others. 😃
 
It’s a matter of not misrepresenting something you have no authority over. You can’t steady the Ark, but you can say “I told you so.”
Yes and the authority does have an orthodoxy. I agree that you can believe a wide berth of things and remain faithful LDS, sometimes due to being highly educated about LDS theology and history, but sometimes being ignorant of it. But really, this is true of pretty much any religious group. People believe weird and wacky things but as long as they aren’t too vocal about it no one will really notice. That doesn’t mean Mormonism or these other groups lacks boundaries, it does mean that sometimes it is difficult to know when someone has really violated a boundary. Is it better to keep someone around who is in error concerning their theology in hopes of correcting them if they aren’t rocking the boat?

I do want to add, with a nod to Lion of Narnia, did theToscanos or Quinn really say “I told you so”?? I would say that in any religious group you can secretly believe whatever you want to as long as you publicly toe the line, but how honest is that?
 
The real answer to that is found in psychology rather theology. The LDS Church claims that historical and traditional Christianity is apostate. It went into apostasy early on in its history, and lost the priesthood authority and it once possessed; and that the LDS Church is a restoration of the original and true form of Christianity. Now this is very hard on traditional Christian churches, because it pulls the rug from under their feet. If there is even the slightest truth in the LDS claims, that means that they lose all their credibility and legitimacy altogether! So they are faced with a serious challenge. If they grant the slightest credence to LDS claims, that would be like committing theological suicide! So they basically have to either shut down shop and tell all their followers to become Mormons; or else to defend themselves by coming up with the most drastic countermeasure imaginable—so they have come up with the idea that “Mormons are not Christians” as the ultimate solution—not that it is doing them any good mind you. They can’t stop the rise and progress of Mormonism. It is growing and increasing in leaps and bounds as prophesied, despite their best efforts. They can damn themselves trying; but they will never be able to stop the progress of Mormonism, because it is the work of the Lord.

On the subject of Mormonism not being Christian because of their rejection of the Trinitarian theology, that is something that has been discussed many times before, such as in this thread. I recommend you to watch the video. If the video is to slow to watch directly off the Internet, try downloading it first to you computer, and then watching it. You can download it by clicking on it with the right mouse button, and selecting “save as” form the menu.

zerinus
zerinus,

Nope. I can honestly say that the idea of the great apostasy was the last thing on my mind when I realized I could no longer be a Mormon. You can avoid this all day, but the reality is that Mormonism is a GOD denying theology, that is, denies the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, truly infinite God as accepted as the basis of any Christian orthodoxy. All that you have are laws that just happened to exist for eternity and innumberable intelligences helping each other to exaltation. How can you not see how DIFFERENT that is??

The sad thing is that Mormons 100 years ago had no problem being different from Christianity, they reveled in it. That was a much more honest response than what is happening now. You either must abandon the basics of your theology and embrace the Judeo-Christian conception of God or remain beyond the boundaries of Christianity.
 
And in learning of their melchizedek preisthood which I have come to find out that no other church has, but is found in the bible in Heb. 5-7 melchizedek was a very improtant fella, …
Melchizedek is God’s chief priest (Abraham our patriarch offered him a sacrifice of bread and wine–Genesis 14:18). Since our chief priest is Jesus Himself and Melchizedek is a priest forever, that office refers to our chief priest, Jesus. (BTW, you’ll find Melchizedek mentioned in Eucharistic Prayer I in the Catholic Mass under the spelling of Melchisedech. He was also mentioned in the Old Roman Canon under the spelling Melchisedec.)
 
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