Mormon Confusion

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Do you actually believe there is more than one Jesus? Mormons don’t claim there to be more than one. You probably don’t intend it, but you doing so makes you look like a polytheist.
There is one Christ, the eternally begotten Son of the Living God. Do not accuse me of believing in more than one - it is you who have introduced the idea, bringing a false christ to these forums. You attempt to cloud the issue through obfuscation and projection. Again, you fool no one, assuming you are consciously trying.
 
Mormons are Christian.
The article Disunity on Essentials debunks the claim that “although Protestants may disagree among themselves on ‘non-essential’ matters, they are united in the ‘essentials’ of the faith.”

Of course this does not specifically address whether or not Mormonism can be considered a Christian religion per se, but one paragraph in particular should help shed some light:
Good tests of practical unity in Protestant churches are: Whom do they let join? Whom do they let preach? Whom do they let pastor? If a particular congregation, as a matter of policy, will not let an individual with a particular belief join its fellowship, preach from its pulpits, or serve as a pastor in one of its churches, then this belief is considered an essential for unity. When these tests are applied, one can see that there is a great deal of practical disunity among Protestant churches—a disunity that goes far beyond the “essentials” named by Protestant apologists.
Given that Joseph Smith taught that God declared all creeds before Mormonism “an abomination,” does it surprise anyone here that Catholics and most Protestants require rebaptism of converts from Mormonism (and that Mormons likewise rebaptize Catholics and Protestants)? So much for Ephesians 4:5 (“One Lord, one faith, one baptism”)!

It also bears repeating that both Catholics and Protestants hold that public or “general” revelation ended with the death of the last apostle (of course, the question of why Protestants consider this a rock-bottom non-negotiable belief, when there isn’t anything at all in the New Testament to even suggest this, is a topic for another thread). While Catholics believe that private revelations can be given still — and have been, as Marian apparitions at such places as Fatima and Lourdes testify (CCC 67), such revelations can never correct, supplement, or complete the Christian faith – which is precisely what Mormon “revelations” claim to do.

If Mormonism were to acknowledge what all true Christians acknowledge (i.e. that public revelation is complete and closed with the death of the apostles), most if not all of the distinctive beliefs of Mormonism would collapse like a house of cards in the wind.
 
I personally don’t have a religious prefrence, but I have been reading up on mormon doctrine and would like to know why they aren’t called christians? The way I see it all religions have similarities with all other religions. And in christian religions Jesus Christ is the focus of their religion(s). Now according to most dictionaries being a christian is defined by professing a belief in jesus christ and following his teachings as recorded in the bible. Now to me this would easily qualify mormons as christians. I mean just because there are many differences in doctrine between catholics and protestants they aren’t saying one another isn’t christian.
You are correct. Mormons do qualify as christians. In fact, many live good christian lives. They attend church, pray over their meals, say morning and evening prayers, attempt to live according to the teachings in the new testament. And when they pray, they pray to the father in the name of Jesus Christ.

However catholics on this forum often claim that mormons are not christian. I believe that this claim is often used as an escape valve for them. However, mormons can live far better christian lives than many other people from different faiths. Both god, the father and Jesus are at the center of mormon life.
 
As strange as this may seem, one can be an atheist and still be a christian if the atheist follows the teachings of Jesus from a humanistic perspective. The Sermon on the Mount can be used a foundation for an atheist as well as for a believing christian.
 
The article Disunity on Essentials debunks the claim that “although Protestants may disagree among themselves on ‘non-essential’ matters, they are united in the ‘essentials’ of the faith.”

Of course this does not specifically address whether or not Mormonism can be considered a Christian religion per se, but one paragraph in particular should help shed some light:

Given that Joseph Smith taught that God declared all creeds before Mormonism “an abomination,” does it surprise anyone here that Catholics and most Protestants require rebaptism of converts from Mormonism (and that Mormons likewise rebaptize Catholics and Protestants)? So much for Ephesians 4:5 (“One Lord, one faith, one baptism”)!

It also bears repeating that both Catholics and Protestants hold that public or “general” revelation ended with the death of the last apostle (of course, the question of why Protestants consider this a rock-bottom non-negotiable belief, when there isn’t anything at all in the New Testament to even suggest this, is a topic for another thread). While Catholics believe that private revelations can be given still — and have been, as Marian apparitions at such places as Fatima and Lourdes testify (CCC 67), such revelations can never correct, supplement, or complete the Christian faith – which is precisely what Mormon “revelations” claim to do.

If Mormonism were to acknowledge what all true Christians acknowledge (i.e. that public revelation is complete and closed with the death of the apostles), most if not all of the distinctive beliefs of Mormonism would collapse like a house of cards in the wind.
Wonderful points. I think it’s important to emphasize this: Mormons don’t think other churches have legitimate ordinances, so why do they get their feelings hurt when other churches return the opinion?
 
Yes and the authority does have an orthodoxy. I agree that you can believe a wide berth of things and remain faithful LDS, sometimes due to being highly educated about LDS theology and history, but sometimes being ignorant of it. But really, this is true of pretty much any religious group. People believe weird and wacky things but as long as they aren’t too vocal about it no one will really notice. That doesn’t mean Mormonism or these other groups lacks boundaries, it does mean that sometimes it is difficult to know when someone has really violated a boundary. Is it better to keep someone around who is in error concerning their theology in hopes of correcting them if they aren’t rocking the boat?
Mormons have no orthodoxy, orthodoxy is “right belief”, a careful preservation and passing down of unchanging doctrines. Mormons have no such thing, what is “right belief” today is opinion tomorrow.
 
Mormons have no orthodoxy, orthodoxy is “right belief”, a careful preservation and passing down of unchanging doctrines. Mormons have no such thing, what is “right belief” today is opinion tomorrow.
Rebecca,

Perhaps it’s better to say that the Mormon conception or practice of orthodoxy is different from Catholicism. M y point was that Mormonism does have boundaries that can be violated, and when people do, they are punished. The idea that you can be a Mormon and believe anything under the sun is a misleading, sure, you can be any religion and believe anything in your mind as long as you don’t state it outloud to others, but that doesn’t say anything about the openness of the religion whatsoever. The true test is when you want to share your ideas with others, what happens? People in Mormonism can and do get a ‘talking to’, temple recommends revoked, disfellowshipped or exommunicated.
 
As strange as this may seem, one can be an atheist and still be a christian if the atheist follows the teachings of Jesus from a humanistic perspective. The Sermon on the Mount can be used a foundation for an atheist as well as for a believing christian.
You become more relative by the day…no atheist would call themselves a Christian and no Christian would say an atheist is Christian. It takes more than living a good life. If that is all it took, there is no need to follow Christ, at all, as one can be a perfectly good person, according to what society defines as “good”, and have never heard the name Jesus Christ.

By your definition, my dog is Christian. She is good and obedient and never hurts anyone.
 
You become more relative by the day…no atheist would call themselves a Christian and no Christian would say an atheist is Christian. It takes more than living a good life. If that is all it took, there is no need to follow Christ, at all, as one can be a perfectly good person, according to what society defines as “good”, and have never heard the name Jesus Christ.

By your definition, my dog is Christian. She is good and obedient and never hurts anyone.
I agree. Why me, that is a lousy definition, meaning, it’s not at all useful or helpful in being descriptive.
 
Rebecca,

Perhaps it’s better to say that the Mormon conception or practice of orthodoxy is different from Catholicism. M y point was that Mormonism does have boundaries that can be violated, and when people do, they are punished. The idea that you can be a Mormon and believe anything under the sun is a misleading, sure, you can be any religion and believe anything in your mind as long as you don’t state it outloud to others, but that doesn’t say anything about the openness of the religion whatsoever. The true test is when you want to share your ideas with others, what happens? People in Mormonism can and do get a ‘talking to’, temple recommends revoked, disfellowshipped or exommunicated.
That is not orthodoxy, that is obeying “the brethren”, THAT is the only thing that is not allowed in Mormonism, going against the brethren.

In Catholicism, I can present ideas that are perfectly orthodox, yet are in dissent or disagreement to my Bishop’s. That won’t get me anything but prayers for conversion.

People like Tsuzuki and whyme play both sides…they work the Mormon “system”, don’t speak against the brethren, they work the Catholic “system”, tell us thanks for our prayers.

This is NOT what Christianity is about. In essence, they have reduced God to a policeman of rules enforcement. They are approaching Christianity as though it were open source.
 
I mean he died for what he believed in, and in life he was always being beaten up and stuff. Would a self made lie be worth ruining your life?
I think it is more accurate to say that Josepph Smith died BECAUSE of how he BEHAVED.

Nothing I have read about him leads me to think that he hankered after martyrdom.

He was desperate to survive. he sent message to the mormons, from his jail cell, pleading for help. He got handguns smuggled to him, and fired in his defense; it is possible he killed men in doing so.

these are not the actions of a Christian martyr. A martyr goes willingly to his death, just like Jesus did.

Josepeh Smitth went down screaming. Eyewitnesses to the scene have reported that he went to the window of his cell and made a masonic sign of distress perhaps hoping that masons in the mob below would come to his aid. finally, he was executed by them after falling from the window.

Joseph Smith Jr the Martyr is a myth developed by mormon apoligists.
Would a self made lie be worth ruining your life?
Some people just get trapped by events. Joseph probably believed most of what he preached. He may have been a maniac of some kind. He certainly must have known that he was moving in dangerous ways, but maybe he though he could outsmart everyone. He’d done pretty well up until 1844, but things caught up with him and he ran out of luck.
 
You are correct. Mormons do qualify as christians. In fact, many live good christian lives. They attend church, pray over their meals, say morning and evening prayers, attempt to live according to the teachings in the new testament. And when they pray, they pray to the father in the name of Jesus Christ.
A different jesus, different in concept, different in reality. One that was made, and did not always exist.
However catholics on this forum often claim that mormons are not christian.
All of Christianity claims this. All of it. Always has and always will. With good reason.
I believe that this claim is often used as an escape valve for them. However, mormons can live far better christian lives than many other people from different faiths. Both god, the father and Jesus are at the center of mormon life.
Ahem! A different god and a different jesus is the Mormon life. You can paint all of the rosy pictures you want, but your concept of infinite gods and of christ is simply different from, has never, and will never be the One God and Eternal Jesus Christ that all of true Christinaity worships.

To anyone who is interested or confused: Dig into Mormon definitions of these Christian terms that they have borrowed. You will see that only the name is the same. Yet, they protest and say “We are true Christians, come see!”. They are permitted to use deception, if that was not already obvious. One must ask himself or herself: Who is the deceiver, the liar, the father of lies?

Do not be deceived, as their true and defining purpose is to lead Christians astray and into their organization. Their organization is easy to join, but hard to leave. The Catholic church is hard to join and easy to leave. Which sounds more like Christ’s words: “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.” (Luke 9:23)

Yes, Mormon practices in daily life closely mimic those of true Christianity, but their beliefs are diametrically opposed as to the very substance of God. It’s a different god, one of an infinite number of gods. Each Mormon man is called to ascend to godhood (like Lucifer desired, and as he falsely offered to Adam and Eve) and their christ was produced by an unheard of union. The words sound the same, but are 100% different. Never mind their talk of a “great apostasy”, it’s the “great deception” that truly separates them from all of Christianity.

All good Christians can pray for their enlightenment by the Holy Spirit, as they each are beloved souls. Many who saw that light and came home are here replying.

The peace of the True Eternally Begotten Christ be with all of you.
 
I personally don’t have a religious prefrence, but I have been reading up on mormon doctrine and would like to know why they aren’t called christians? The way I see it all religions have similarities with all other religions. And in christian religions Jesus Christ is the focus of their religion(s). Now according to most dictionaries being a christian is defined by professing a belief in jesus christ and following his teachings as recorded in the bible. Now to me this would easily qualify mormons as christians. I mean just because there are many differences in doctrine between catholics and protestants they aren’t saying one another isn’t christian.
A book I have found helpful is

“How Wide the Divide? : A Mormon & an Evangelical in Conversation” by Craig L. Blomberg.

It gives a Mormon perspective, in dialogue with an Evangelical to discuss some of the more “controversial” beliefs Mormons hold. There is no getting around the “differences”, but reading this cordial dialogue, with no attacks from either side, gives a balanced view of Mormon belief.
 
Nothing I have read about him leads me to think that he hankered after martyrdom.
Forgive me, but Joe Smith clearly believed in the “hereafter”. And numerous women around him found out what he was “hereafter”.
these are not the actions of a Christian martyr. A martyr goes willingly to his death, just like Jesus did.
Amen!
 
zerinus,

Nope. I can honestly say that the idea of the great apostasy was the last thing on my mind when I realized I could no longer be a Mormon. You can avoid this all day, but the reality is that Mormonism is a GOD denying theology, that is, denies the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, truly infinite God as accepted as the basis of any Christian orthodoxy. All that you have are laws that just happened to exist for eternity and innumberable intelligences helping each other to exaltation. How can you not see how DIFFERENT that is??

The sad thing is that Mormons 100 years ago had no problem being different from Christianity, they reveled in it. That was a much more honest response than what is happening now. You either must abandon the basics of your theology and embrace the Judeo-Christian conception of God or remain beyond the boundaries of Christianity.
What you write sounds alien to me. It does not remotely describe what I know as Mormonism.

zerinus
 
What you write sounds alien to me. It does not remotely describe what I know as Mormonism.

zerinus
Then perhaps you should read the Gospel Principles manual. Do you deny those things are true? Perhaps they sound alient o you because you avoid thinking through the consequences of your theology, but it was Joseph Smith who said that we ought to learn about the nature of God. So forget about how it ‘sounds’ to you, the question is, do you actually disagree?
 
lds-mormon.com/moc.shtml
Sterling M. McMurrin was a well-known intellectual and professor at the University of Utah from the 1940’s to the 1980’s. He served as U.S. Commissioner of Education under President John F. Kennedy. In his work with the Aspen Institute of the Humanities, he came to know many of the pillars of the political and cultural establishment of the United States. Yet for all of his eminence in the secular world, McMurrin will probably be remembered for his writing and influence on the Mormon Church. He described himself as a "loyal heretic:" he openly expressed his disbelief in many fundamental doctrines of Mormonism. But he really never left Utah and was always sympathetic to the church when contacted for comment by the national media.

“Matters of Conscience: Conversations with Sterling M. McMurrin” is a transcript of interviews with the man, conducted over almost a decade by L. Jackson Newell (a former co-editor of “Dialogue” and also a professor at the University of Utah.) This book also serves as a sort of autobiography of McMurrin. In the interviews, it appears that McMurrin (perhaps unconsciously) modeled his style of spaking after that of the late U.S. President Harry S. Truman:-) We get the same pungent tone of “plain speaking”–he is usually tactful but seldom pulls his punches where candor is concerned. He cherished his Western roots; in his spare time he raised horses, wore string ties, and was very conservative in his personal life.

The most compelling chapters of the book are those that outline McMurrin’s encounters with LDS General Authorities. D. Michael Quinn has demonstrated that the LDS hierarchy can in some ways be thought of as a large, extended family. McMurrin was a grandson of a general authority and grew up knowing many of the others. Because of these personal relationships (and his lack of rancor), he was allowed to freely speak his mind. After one meeting with Elders Harold B. Lee and Joseph Fielding Smith, during which they discussed McMurrin’s dissenting opinions, Elder Smith told McMurrin, “in spite of your telling us of your disbeliefs and heresies, we want you to know that you have the Holy Ghost” (page 194).

An effort was apparently made in the mid-50’s to excommunicate McMurrin, but it was spiked by church president David O. McKay. The president told the professor that he would be the first witness in McMurrin’s defense at any church court. He also told McMurrin that the LDS ban on black males holding the priesthood (a major bone of contention with conservative church leaders) was a “practice”, not a doctrine, and would someday be changed. Ironically, this attempt to purge McMurrin became one of the church’s finest hours in the delicate matter of toleration of individual conscience.

McMurrin remembered having strong religious feelings in his childhood, but he dismissed them as “emotion.” He became in adulthood a convert to the great 20th century idea of naturalism, rather like Fawn Brodie. Unlike Brodie, however, he still saw great value in the church. There was an ambivalence about his religious stirrings; he wanted to believe, but he saw the prevaling secular philosophies of midcentury western culture as forbidding it. In a twist of fate, purely materialist systems (like Marxism) have now fallen into intellectual disrepute. One wonders how a young McMurrin would react to the changing zeitgeist if he were just starting out now.

There are at least a couple of ways of viewing McMurrin’s life: one is to consider him as an example of what BYU professor Louis Midgely calls “the acids of modernity”–that is, what can happen to a person’s religious faith when it is subjected to the relentless skepticism of modernism. The critic Midge Decter wrote a book in the 70’s titled “Liberal Parents, Radical Children.” Her point was that liberalism in one generation frequently leads to radicalism (or in the case of religion, unbelief) in the next. It is understandable that church leaders would fear that, after McMurrin, other heretics would appear that would be far less “loyal.”

On the other hand, Todd Compton writes of “non-hierarchical revelation.” Taking the example of the blacks and the priesthood, perhaps the Lord was using McMurrin’s dissent as a tool to remove encrustations of superstition and culturally-induced “practices” from the pure gospel of Christ. Eugene England has suggested that one reason blacks hadn’t received the priesthood by 1978 wasn’t that they were unworthy, but that we weren’t ready for them to have it because of our racism. In an interview with “Time” magazine at the time of the priesthood revelation, McMurrin said “the young people of the church wouldn’t stand for it (the ban) anymore.” Perhaps it was the function of McMurrin, Lowell L. Bennion, and others like them to alter the environment of the church in order to make change possible. In any event, “Matters of Conscience” is a very interesting history of one Mormon’s life during the turbulent 20th century.
One example hardly denies many other cases of people who weren’t so lucky…
 
One example hardly denies many other cases of people who weren’t so lucky…
McMurrin was a grandson of a general authority and grew up knowing many of the others. Because of these personal relations****hips (and his lack of rancor), he was allowed to freely speak his mind.

I agree, the GA’s and their families are subject to different rules than everyone else. Tsuzuki, are you saying you are as McMurrin, related and connected to the upper royalty of Mormonism?
 
Then perhaps you should read the Gospel Principles manual. Do you deny those things are true? Perhaps they sound alient o you because you avoid thinking through the consequences of your theology, but it was Joseph Smith who said that we ought to learn about the nature of God. So forget about how it ‘sounds’ to you, the question is, do you actually disagree?
I assure you I have read the Gospel Principles manual, and what you are saying is still alien to me. That is not the Mormonism I am acquainted with.

zerinus
 
I assure you I have read the Gospel Principles manual, and what you are saying is still alien to me. That is not the Mormonism I am acquainted with.

zerinus
You’re still not answering the question, are you saying that what I am saying is false? Or is it true but you’re not used to hearing it explained like I have explained it? My guess it the latter. My guess is tha tyou realize what I am saying is true enough, but the way I’ve stated it is not something you are used to and makes you uncomfortable. I would further guess that you know well enough that the Gospel Principles manual clearly enough teaches exactly what I have said, but perhaps you feel that my focus is all wrong.

Believe it or not, I understand what you are saying, because I’ve said it on many occassions myself. “Yes, that might be technically true, but that’s not how I envision it, that’s not how I hear it, that’s not how I live it.” Okay, granted. But, that doesn’t make what I’ve said false. Could it be that I’ve simply restated things in a clear fashion? AFter all, like I said, Joseph taught that we ought to learn what we can about the nature of God, first things first right? Therefore we should be investigating all we can about the basic nature of deity and laying it out on the table.

So the question comes back, what have I said that is error?
 
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