Mormon Confusion

[Prague]

Nebula, I have been so much enjoying your posts. Very informative.
God’s Blessings

 

[nebula]

They are not just my “personal opinions”. I gave you documented quotes form Gordon B. Hinckley, Prophet and President of the Church no less, that that doctrine is questionable. Why are you now ignoring that, and calling it just my opinion? I also gave you a link to an article in my Blog in which I clearly demonstrated the Church’s official position on how the doctrine of the Church is determined—i.e. that it rests exclusively on the standard works. Everything that is not found in there is questionable; and everything that contradicts it is false. I did not invent all of that. It is the Church’s policy position. Why are you now ignoring all of that, and calling it “my opinion”? You are not being very honest with yourself or me by doing that I don’t think.

zerinus

zerinus,

Because the church’s official publications do have authority over the religious lives of LDS members, that’s why. Think of the Church Handbook of Instructions for one. That isn’t at the level of canonized scripture, but it has great authority. I don’t think you can take the LDS system of thought into a binary: canonized and non canonized, and the non canonized is for the birds. That doesn’t reflect the reality of lived Mormonism. What I would grant you is a tiered system with the canonized scriptures on the top, official church publications below that and so on, the details of which we could wrangle over. The problem is that you want me to accept your viewpoint when the reality is in black and white print before my eyes and is still officially taught on sunday schools worldwide-- that fact I don’t think you’ve adequately dealt with.

 

[nebula]

Nebula, I have been so much enjoying your posts. Very informative.
God’s Blessings

Thanks so much for your encouragement Prague

 

[Prague]

Your very welcome. Keep up the good work…

 

[zerinus]

bdwag,

This is why I explicitly stated absolutely infinite, because I am aware of these attempts to get around the plain meanings of words. A God with a beginning is not an independent Being by definition. That’s what I am talking about, God is completely Independent, He is a different kind of Person altogether than we are. Mormonism posits that God is different in degree (man + billion years) whereas traditional Christianity posits a God who is qualitatively different from us, as a rock is from a cat.

I hope that helps clear up for you what my issue is. I’m not interested in relatively eternal, or he is now beyond time so all that doesn’t count, or he’ll always be greater than us so why worry, or he’s one is purpose with Christ and the Holy Ghost. Those are not solutions to the problem I present above, they do not begin to address it, but I do appreciate the fact that you acknowledge Mormon theology as taught in the most basic of church teaching manuals.

LDS scripture teaches that God is infinite, eternal, unchangeable, omnipotent etc, and has always been God, and there is not God above Him or greater than Him:

Book of Mormon Title Page:

And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations.

2 Nephi 26:

12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God.

Mosiah 5:

15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

Alma 11:

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Alma 34:

9 For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; . . .

---

14 And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.

Moroni 8:

18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

D&C 20:

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

Moses 1:

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

Moses 7:

35 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also.

D&C 20:

17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them.

zerinus

 

[po18guy]

bdawg,

I should clear up a couple of items to help our conversation. The first is that I’m not a Catholic, right now I’m trying to figure out exactly how to formulate my faith. I’m seriously looking at Catholicism as an option because I agree that the Bible is not a stand alone text and according to the Catholics I’m already a Catholic which for some reason makes the choice seem more natural.

The second thing is that my conception of God comes first, then the Bible. How is this so? Well, first of all only a truly infinite independent God satisfactorily answers the metaphysical questions and satisfies the argument from contingency, that is, it really makes a lot of sense. Secondly, this is the God who revealed Himself to me, and who I find that I have secure faith in. It is from that first that I approach the Bible which I see as a record of God’s dealings with humanity because the basic idea makes so much sense: the infinite God must reconcile us dependent, finite beings, to Himself and through Himself= Christ.

Therefore, I agree that early Hebrews were monolatrists (though obviously not ‘MOrmon style’), and many conceived of God as a physical being, but they still saw God as other. Look at the first verse of Genesis, the verb bara as conjugated in the Qal paradigm is only used with God, only God bara-s. By the time of the writing of deuteronomy, a montheism was in play. By the time of Christ, strict monotheism was the order of hte day. That is, I believe that God reveals Himself to real live communities of finite human beings, with limited capacities for understanding, and speaks to them in the language and concepts that they can understand. Just because the earliest Hebrews may have had a ‘rough’ conception of God doesn’t mean that that is the most correct one. If we don’t take that route, if we insist that every conception of God presented in the Bible is absolutely correct with no modification, we have utter confusion on our hands because there are contradictory things being said. So what do we do? We could look at the NT as definitive since Christ Himself had come to earth and taught and influenced thinking about God, and if that is the case, the strict monotheistic position takes the forefront since that was the viewpoint espoused by normative Judaism in Christ’s time, and reiterated in the NT. We could also look to church fathers, traditions passed down by the RCC, to help us understand, which is a possibility I am looking into.

I hope that helps.

Amen. It sounds like you are already home! With such a thorough and logical examination of your relationship to the universe, you have well laid the foundation for a beautiful, and building, relationship with the Lord.

Our limited understanding of the spiritual must be grounded in a logical understanding of the historical. Thus, you have already begun to see things clearly, even though your past has dragged it through the nebulous.

Christ’s peace on your journey.

 

[zerinus]

The problem is that you want me to accept your viewpoint when the reality is in black and white print before my eyes and is still officially taught on sunday schools worldwide-- that fact I don’t think you’ve adequately dealt with.

And as long as you keep calling it “my viewpoint,” when I have given you documentary evidence that it is not just “my viewpoint,” we cannot proceed.

zerinus

 

[nebula]

LDS scripture teaches that God is infinite, eternal, unchangeable, omnipotent etc, and has always been God, and there is not God above Him or greater than Him:

Book of Mormon Title Page:

And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations.

2 Nephi 26:

12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God.

Mosiah 5:

15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

Alma 11:

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Alma 34:

9 For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; . . .

---

14 And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.

Moroni 8:

18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

D&C 20:

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

Moses 1:

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

Moses 7:

35 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also.

D&C 20:

17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them.

zerinus

Sounds like something you should take up with bdwag…

 

[nebula]

And as long as you keep calling it “my viewpoint,” when I have given you documentary evidence that it is not just “my viewpoint,” we cannot proceed.

zerinus

zerinus,

THat still doesn’t deal with the issues that I’ve presented which indicate that your- … what do you want me to call it?..- argument, -how’s that?- that your argument is lacking, that non canonized church publications do have great authority in the lives of mormons, or address the alternative model which I have suggested.

 

[hosemonkey]

Maybe they will when the next edition of the manual is published. I believe the current edition is a reprint of the last edition which was published before Hinckley made those comments. I think it is a policy of the Church that when doctrinal errors of this nature are discovered, to allow them to die out gradually, rather than remove them by a drastic action from the top. The reason for that is that some people’s faith is weak, and a sudden change in something that they have believed in for a long time may be detrimental to their faith. But Hinckley was right about what he said: that doctrine is no longer taught from the pulpit. I don’t recall one instance in the past ten or twenty years that it was taught by a General Authority at General Conference; whereas once upon a time that was not the case. The doctrine is no longer being taught, which means that it will eventually die out of its own accord.

This whole post is a classic illustration of the patent falsity of mormon “doctrine.” The doctrine of the Catholic Church is perfect and unchangable. Catholic practice may change, but doctrine never. To abrogate or to let the teaching “die out” so as not to affect the faithful, is to expose the weakness and falsity of mormon doctrine. If this is done at the whim of the so-called “prophet”, it is even more reprehensible. And you people put up with that?

 

[nebula]

Amen. It sounds like you are already home! With such a thorough and logical examination of your relationship to the universe, you have well laid the foundation for a beautiful, and building, relationship with the Lord.

Our limited understanding of the spiritual must be grounded in a logical understanding of the historical. Thus, you have already begun to see things clearly, even though your past has dragged it through the nebulous.

Christ’s peace on your journey.

Thanks po, I’m working on it. I still have a ways to go!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca, it seems the Lord calls out much more to women in the LDS than to the men. I know that there is very little in the LDS for women, and have heard horror stories about their treatment. Some are still bitter, and some have worked past the mistreatment very well. It appears endemic to the LDS belief system. Something evil is occurring to the women. You can see it in the media, in every polygamist cult, as the women and children are seen being lead away during various investigations. So many appear programmed, that they even desire to return. What an evil tyranny!

Praise God that the Holy Spirit spoke directly to you.

Christ’s peace.

Thanks.

That is where my questioning everything began, only problem is, all the lies about who I am as a person colored even the bit of truth that Mormonism has as lies as well. Thus, I was led out of Mormonism to atheism, as I believed everything that ever came out of that church was a lie, including God.

It was only by coming to understand God that I was able to see past all of the lies, the biggest of which is that of a false god. I was angry beyond belief then, throwing things angry, at what I had been taught and that even in my atheism I still had that largest of Mormon lies influencing my life. I was fit to be tied. The layers are never ending, and I still find Mormon “stuff” in my head, and so I study Catholicism to compare, contrast, and discover the truth.

It is rather irksome to see Mormons try to make God in the image of their false god. Joseph Smith & Co. have lot to answer for, and I’m certainly not going to fault people for calling a snake a snake.

 

[po18guy]

ETERNAL GOD, the Eternal God,the Lord God OmnipotentGod above all,one Eternal God,Eternal God,infinite and eternal,unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity,infinite and eternal, without end,no God beside me,Endless and Eternal,infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God,

The Lord God Almighty need say this only once, not in endless repetitions. Given the time frame in which this was written, it appears as nothing more than a vain attempt to convince disbelieving Christians that these writings are somehow genuine.

This is patently easy to observe from the outside. I pray that the Holy Spirit illumines the hearts of those captured by this deception.

 

[hosemonkey]

Thanks.

That is where my questioning everything began, only problem is, all the lies about who I am as a person colored even the bit of truth that Mormonism has as lies as well. Thus, I was led out of Mormonism to atheism, as I believed everything that ever came out of that church was a lie, including God.

Exactly RebeccaJ, you share my anger and contempt for those who do not necessarily kill the body, but who kill the soul through false teaching. How many mormons have quit the cult in disgust, fallen into disbelief and died, separated from God through the machinations of a false religion. All as a result of being lied to systematically.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Maybe they will when the next edition of the manual is published. I believe the current edition is a reprint of the last edition which was published before Hinckley made those comments. I think it is a policy of the Church that when doctrinal errors of this nature are discovered, to allow them to die out gradually, rather than remove them by a drastic action from the top. The reason for that is that some people’s faith is weak, and a sudden change in something that they have believed in for a long time may be detrimental to their faith. But Hinckley was right about what he said: that doctrine is no longer taught from the pulpit. I don’t recall one instance in the past ten or twenty years that it was taught by a General Authority at General Conference; whereas once upon a time that was not the case. The doctrine is no longer being taught, which means that it will eventually die out of its own accord.

zerinus

This is just nuts, letting people continue in error is unbelievable

 

[RebeccaJ]

Sounds like something you should take up with bdwag…

nebula, I’ve been meaning to point something out to you. JS view of the nature of God changed over time, and that is reflected in Mormon scripture. The original version of the BoM teaches the Trinity, and the D&C passages from JS Trinity-view years reflect this. The changing story of the first vision also goes along with his changing view of god.

The “Lectures on Faith” is one of the best examples of this, it completely contradicts later Mormon doctrines about God, and rather than try and reconcile the conflicting scriptures with thousands of changes (literally) in wording (as done with the BoM and the D&C), it was just pulled from their scriptural canon altogether.

If you look at zerinus post, everything is from JS God-is-triune in nature years. By the time JS got to making up the Book of Abraham, he was thoroughly polytheistic and had his God-is-man view going. I don’t blame people like Hinckley and zerinus as just dismissing this out of hand, it is one way to reconcile JS changing doctrines about God.

BDawg seems to go down another road, that of proving that God as triune is a new idea. When, it is JS with his slowly degenerating view of god, reverting really, to polytheism. I have wondered sometimes if he lived long enough, if he wouldn’t have reverted to pantheism entirely.

This goes through the changes pretty well.

 

[po18guy]

When, it is JS with his slowly degenerating view of god, reverting really, to polytheism. I have wondered sometimes if he lived long enough, if he wouldn’t have reverted to pantheism entirely.

You can bet that JS, wherever he is now, believes in one God in three persons! I think he should have taken a clue from the evil one, who absolutely believes it. Sadly, JS seems to have taken more than just one clue…

 

[po18guy]

Thanks po, I’m working on it. I still have a ways to go!

You and RebeccaJ seem to have a lot of journey in common, in what you have been exposed to, and the mistreatment you have received.

My word to Mormon women is that they need only one man, Jesus Christ, to get to highest Heaven. Amen! Alleluia!

 

[zerinus]

Sounds like something you should take up with bdwag…

Why should I take it up with him? I am taking it up with you. You are the one who is denying it, not him. Did you ever make a serious study of the Book of Mormon? It sounds like you never did. That explains a lot.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

zerinus,

THat still doesn’t deal with the issues that I’ve presented which indicate that your- … what do you want me to call it?..- argument, -how’s that?- that your argument is lacking, that non canonized church publications do have great authority in the lives of mormons, or address the alternative model which I have suggested.

Which I did address; and which for some reason you want to turn a blind eye to.

zerinus