Mormon Confusion

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Exactly RebeccaJ, you share my anger and contempt for those who do not necessarily kill the body, but who kill the soul through false teaching. How many mormons have quit the cult in disgust, fallen into disbelief and died, separated from God through the machinations of a false religion. All as a result of being lied to systematically.
And that is what JS & Co are going to have to answer to, IMO.

“Separated from God through the machinations of a false religion” is an interesting statement. When I was an atheist, and my view of god (lower case false god) was full of Anger, I named that god a wedge. A wedge between me and the people I love.

Now I do see it as you describe, that Mormonism has placed a wedge between the people I love, and God. I pray that God will guide them, and believe He will have mercy on their souls.
 
hosemonkey;4046799:
I love that. So, are any of the other Catholics here still ready to defend Grand Inquisitor TorqueHosemonkey’s behavior?

I didn’t really expect him to understand that the Mormon idea that prophets don’t necessarily always speak “infallibly” is very similar to the Catholic idea that the Pope doesn’t always necessarily speak infallibly. (Yes, hosemonkey, I understand the doctrine of Papal Infallibility pretty well, and I knew that Catholics don’t see every Papal Bull as an infallible statement.) But I absolutely didn’t expect him to actually defend the torture of heretics!!!😃 Priceless!!!
Yes… count me in as one who defends hosemonkey. In fact, his remark about “burning a few heretics” was hilarious and I am still laughing. I am following this thread because I have LDS in my family and they are beyond strange.
You almost had Papal Infallibilty right but then you blew it. hosemonkey spelled the concept out to you as well as it can be done but I’m guessing you still can’t grasp it.
I must say that I am proud of my brother and sister Catholic posters here as they more than hold their own against people who are trained to bob and weave and never get pinned down.
Even if I could help they don’t need it.👍
 
Why should I take it up with him? I am taking it up with you. You are the one who is denying it, not him. Did you ever make a serious study of the Book of Mormon? It sounds like you never did. That explains a lot.

zerinus
If the end result is doubting its truthiness, or no “burning of the bosom”, do you consider it a “serious study”?

Have you ever read the Qu’ran, or the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, or the Bhagavad Gita, and prayed with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, if they were true or not?
 
How about any major school of Jewish thought, YHWH’s speech in the Book of Job, and the very nature of the Tetragrammaton itself?
Please be more specific. I don’t see the same things there that you seem to.
Actually, 1 Nephi 13 pretty much lays it all out as conspiracy.
Yes, we believe that people did excise some of the original teachings. But you implied that I was saying that if there is a gap between the apostles and the first sign of one of your traditions, that is some kind of proof that there was some kind of conspiracy to change things. I said no such thing. I said that such gaps make the claim that there was a continuous tradition less convincing. But just because there is a lack of evidence for some proposition doesn’t mean it isn’t true. So please get it through your head. I have never said, and will never say, that some historical argument “proves” LDS claims or “disproves” Catholic claims. Arguments are more convincing or less convincing, but the fact is that we are always operating with incomplete information, so arguments can’t absolutely prove anything.
 
Nebula, I have been so much enjoying your posts. Very informative.
God’s Blessings
I appreciate your posts, too, nebula. I don’t mind disagreement, but I appreciate it when people try to discuss their reasons for disagreement.
 
LDS scripture teaches that God is infinite, eternal, unchangeable, omnipotent etc, and has always been God, and there is not God above Him or greater than Him:
Hi Z,

Typical LDS (and Biblical) thought has not interpreted these attributes in as absolute a sense as you (or the others here) seem to.

Boy, we Mormons are so awful. We can’t agree on anything! Of course, that’s just because we are such weasels, coming here and trying to confuse everyone. 😉
 
nebula, I’ve been meaning to point something out to you. JS view of the nature of God changed over time, and that is reflected in Mormon scripture. The original version of the BoM teaches the Trinity, and the D&C passages from JS Trinity-view years reflect this. The changing story of the first vision also goes along with his changing view of god.

The “Lectures on Faith” is one of the best examples of this, it completely contradicts later Mormon doctrines about God, and rather than try and reconcile the conflicting scriptures with thousands of changes (literally) in wording (as done with the BoM and the D&C), it was just pulled from their scriptural canon altogether.

If you look at zerinus post, everything is from JS God-is-triune in nature years. By the time JS got to making up the Book of Abraham, he was thoroughly polytheistic and had his God-is-man view going. I don’t blame people like Hinckley and zerinus as just dismissing this out of hand, it is one way to reconcile JS changing doctrines about God.

BDawg seems to go down another road, that of proving that God as triune is a new idea. When, it is JS with his slowly degenerating view of god, reverting really, to polytheism. I have wondered sometimes if he lived long enough, if he wouldn’t have reverted to pantheism entirely.

This goes through the changes pretty well.
Hi Rebecca,

I think you make a great point. Yes I am aware that JS radically changed his theology but I wouldn’t describe BoM theoloyg as trinitarian, it’s more properly modalist (think of the verse that used to equate Christ with the Eternal Father, now reading, of course, son of the Eternal Father). It is fascinating to see how individual Mormons deal with this especially as BoM reading has been emphasized since Benson for its doctrinal content, not just as evidence of JS’s prophethood-- your observations on the matter could very well be the case.
 
Why should I take it up with him? I am taking it up with you. You are the one who is denying it, not him. Did you ever make a serious study of the Book of Mormon? It sounds like you never did. That explains a lot.

zerinus
zerinus,

I did, I read it cover to cover a few times and took institute classes on it. As I mentioned to Rebecca, and as she pointed out, the theology in the BoM is not the same theology presented in the BoA, for example. I agree, the BoM is monotheist, modalist most likely and overall presents a more or less traditional view of God as infinite Spirit. So how do you get from that, to the BoA’s plurality of gods, to the passages still taught as official doctrine worldwide that I quoted? Something to think about.
 
zerinus,

THat still doesn’t deal with the issues that I’ve presented which indicate that your- … what do you want me to call it?..- argument, -how’s that?- that your argument is lacking, that non canonized church publications do have great authority in the lives of mormons, or address the alternative model which I have suggested.
Hi nebula,

I actually agree with you on this, to a point. To me it seems similar to the Catholic concept of “Limbo” for unbaptized infants. It was never officially defined as dogma, but it was so common a belief that it actually was included in the Baltimore Catechism. The Catechism has great authority for your average Joe Catholic, just like official church publications do for your average Joe Mormon. But lately Limbo has been called into question, and it is no longer taught in the Catechism, although lots of Catholics might still believe it.

Similarly, I mentioned the papal bull ad Extirpanda, which was clearly an official Catholic document, but modern Catholics (except, apparently, hosemonkey and Majick) don’t seem to feel the need to defend the torture of heretics.

Zerinus is completely correct that the doctrine that God the Father had a Father has never reached the level of “official dogma” in Mormonism, even though it has been so common that it appears in official church publications. So he thinks it is on the way out. I disagree, but I don’t see the point of pressing him about it. He maintains a legitimate, although minority, LDS position on the issue, and he tries to back up his POV with scriptures and other references. Since Catholics face similar issues (e.g., with the “Limbo” teaching,) and since LDS clearly don’t believe in prophetic infallibility, and since there is no real way to settle the issue, I see no reason why Z should feel the slightest compulsion to argue for anything but his own POV.
 
Hi Rebecca,

I think you make a great point. Yes I am aware that JS radically changed his theology but I wouldn’t describe BoM theoloyg as trinitarian, it’s more properly modalist (think of the verse that used to equate Christ with the Eternal Father, now reading, of course, son of the Eternal Father). It is fascinating to see how individual Mormons deal with this especially as BoM reading has been emphasized since Benson for its doctrinal content, not just as evidence of JS’s prophethood-- your observations on the matter could very well be the case.
Yeah, he went from trinitarian to modalist to henotheism. The BoM has had changes, a lot of the passages that were changed were very trinitarian in nature, they were changed, and reflect a modalism today. We had a discusson on this once…looking…here you go.

Someone around here quotes trinitarian passages from the BoM. Anyone?
 
BDawg;4046902:
Yes… count me in as one who defends hosemonkey. In fact, his remark about “burning a few heretics” was hilarious and I am still laughing. I am following this thread because I have LDS in my family and they are beyond strange.
You almost had Papal Infallibilty right but then you blew it. hosemonkey spelled the concept out to you as well as it can be done but I’m guessing you still can’t grasp it.
I must say that I am proud of my brother and sister Catholic posters here as they more than hold their own against people who are trained to bob and weave and never get pinned down.
Even if I could help they don’t need it.👍
My heavens, some of you are thick. I understand, and always did understand, that Catholics don’t view ad Extirpanda as an infallible pronouncement. I brought it up to demonstrate the point that Catholics don’t view everything the Pope ever says as infallible. Just like the Mormons don’t view everything our prophets say as infallible. So why harangue us (like hosemonkey was doing) for following men whose every statement isn’t considered infallible? Do you get it, now?
 
Hi Rebecca,

I think you make a great point. Yes I am aware that JS radically changed his theology but I wouldn’t describe BoM theoloyg as trinitarian, it’s more properly modalist (think of the verse that used to equate Christ with the Eternal Father, now reading, of course, son of the Eternal Father). It is fascinating to see how individual Mormons deal with this especially as BoM reading has been emphasized since Benson for its doctrinal content, not just as evidence of JS’s prophethood-- your observations on the matter could very well be the case.
I disagree with the idea that the Book of Mormon teaches “Modalism,” even though it obviously doesn’t have Joseph Smith’s full-blown later theology in it. For an explanation of why I think this is untenable, see this essay.
 
I disagree with the idea that the Book of Mormon teaches “Modalism,” even though it obviously doesn’t have Joseph Smith’s full-blown later theology in it. For an explanation of why I think this is untenable, see this essay.
I would equate more the modalism to JS years where he a “binitarian” POV. Which, appears modalist, but is more a progression towards paganism.
 
I would equate more the modalism to JS years where he a “binitarian” POV. Which, appears modalist, but is more a progression towards paganism.
So, are individual wards free to practice the Mormon faith of a particular time frame - that which suits them best?
 
I disagree with the idea that the Book of Mormon teaches “Modalism,” even though it obviously doesn’t have Joseph Smith’s full-blown later theology in it. For an explanation of why I think this is untenable, see this essay.
I read your essay. First, it shows a clear lack of understanding the Trinity. It refutes passages that are very trinitarian in nature as not being modalistic, yeah, they are trinitarian. Like this one:

And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that
ye should understand that God himself shall
come down among the children of men, and shall
redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in
flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and hav-
ing subjected the flesh to the will of the Father,
being the Father and the Son—The Father, be-
cause he was conceived by the power of God;
and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becom-
ing the Father and Son—And they are one God,
yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of
earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to
the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one
God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to
the temptation, but suffereth himself to be
mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and dis-
owned by his people.

And then the answer to this is that the original Nephite author left some ‘things’ out.

Ohhhhhhh.

And then compares that to the Discipline of the Secret. Which, has nothing to do with anything, as the Discipline of the Secret never kept anything hidden forever, as if there were something that God was afraid to tell anyone. Catechumens were taught EVERYTHING before being baptized. Pagans who were spies were not.

The rest reads like a paraphrasing of Bible passages.
 
So, are individual wards free to practice the Mormon faith of a particular time frame - that which suits them best?
wards are not, but apparently individuals are (see whyme, tsuzuki and zerinus)
 
Yeah, he went from trinitarian to modalist to henotheism. The BoM has had changes, a lot of the passages that were changed were very trinitarian in nature, they were changed, and reflect a modalism today. We had a discusson on this once…looking…here you go.

Someone around here quotes trinitarian passages from the BoM. Anyone?
Great, thanks Rebecca.
 
Hi nebula,

I actually agree with you on this, to a point. To me it seems similar to the Catholic concept of “Limbo” for unbaptized infants. It was never officially defined as dogma, but it was so common a belief that it actually was included in the Baltimore Catechism. The Catechism has great authority for your average Joe Catholic, just like official church publications do for your average Joe Mormon. But lately Limbo has been called into question, and it is no longer taught in the Catechism, although lots of Catholics might still believe it.

Similarly, I mentioned the papal bull ad Extirpanda, which was clearly an official Catholic document, but modern Catholics (except, apparently, hosemonkey and Majick) don’t seem to feel the need to defend the torture of heretics.

Zerinus is completely correct that the doctrine that God the Father had a Father has never reached the level of “official dogma” in Mormonism, even though it has been so common that it appears in official church publications. So he thinks it is on the way out. I disagree, but I don’t see the point of pressing him about it. He maintains a legitimate, although minority, LDS position on the issue, and he tries to back up his POV with scriptures and other references. Since Catholics face similar issues (e.g., with the “Limbo” teaching,) and since LDS clearly don’t believe in prophetic infallibility, and since there is no real way to settle the issue, I see no reason why Z should feel the slightest compulsion to argue for anything but his own POV.
bdawg,

The difference here is that the manual is still in circulation, last I checked, and clearly teaches that Heavenly father was once a man exalted to be a god. Why it is that a sunday school manual used to teach sunday school class can’t be used to demonstrate that the LDS church does have a position on the topic is beyond me, becuase like I said, official church publications not canonized do hold a great deal of authority in the lives of ordinary Mormons- case in point is the Church Handbook. All of this needs to first be acknowledged, and then sorted through if zerinus or anyone else wants to argue that the LDS church does not teach the doctrine I described above.
 
Boy, we Mormons are so awful. We can’t agree on anything! Of course, that’s just because we are such weasels, coming here and trying to confuse everyone. 😉
You are finally beginning to see why you have no credibility. You need to work harder on losing your weaselness. The little winkie does not change anything, no one here wants to go steady with you.
 
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