Mormon doctrine in a nutshell!

[why_me]

Thank you for proving my point so well. Wine is wine, and although it may have had a weaker alcohol percentage in Jesus’ day, it still did.
The fact that most, not just Jesus’ at the Last Supper with amazing foresight, did dilute the wine that was commonly used. This was to avoid getting drunk un-necessarily. BUT, there was alcohol in the drink and as you can see, that if it is done in MODERATION (which is a principle that we should all hold to) it is not a bad thing.
SO, changing the communion, or as I know it should be Blood of Christ, to water as a substitute, is wrong factually and down right disrespectful.
Jesus did not say, “This is my WATER, take it, all of you and drink.”

Okay, let me make it simple. In some countries, there is what is called ‘home beer’. Now home beer has a very low alcohol content; in fact, children can drink it to no effect. It is also served in work places and it is not subject to alcohol restrictions.

As has been stated, the wine in Jesus’ time had a low alcohol content. And it was used for a water substitute for its purity. Now of course perhaps there was stronger wine available. But I don’t believe that Jesus encouraged drunkenness. And the wine that he drank could have been of a low content as in the case of ‘home beer’.

 

[why_me]

Here are some scriptures or verses taken from the bible about wine. I dedicate them to my winebibbing friends on this thread!

TOPICAL GUIDE
Wine
See also Drunkenness; Winebibber; Winepress; Word of Wisdom
Lev. 10: 9 Do not drink wine.
Num. 6: 3 He shall separate himself from wine.
Deut. 32: 33 Their wine is the poison of dragons.
Judg. 13: 4 drink not wine nor strong drink.
Ps. 104: 15 wine that maketh glad the heart.
Prov. 20: 1 Wine is a mocker.
Prov. 21: 17 he that loveth wine . . . shall not be rich.
Prov. 23: 30 They that tarry long at the wine.
Prov. 23: 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red.
Eccl. 10: 19 wine maketh merry.
Isa. 1: 22 thy wine mixed with water.
Isa. 5: 11 (2 Ne. 15: 11) continue until night, till wine inflame them.
Isa. 24: 9 They shall not drink wine.
Isa. 28: 7 they also have erred through wine.
Isa. 29: 9 (2 Ne. 8: 21) drunken, but not with wine.
Isa. 55: 1 (2 Ne. 9: 50) buy wine and milk without money.
Jer. 35: 5 set before the sons of . . . Rechabites . . . wine.
Jer. 35: 6 they said, We will drink no wine.
Ezek. 44: 21 Neither shall any priest drink wine.
Dan. 1: 8 he would not defile himself . . . with the wine.
Hosea 3: 1 look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.
Hosea 4: 11 Whoredom and wine . . . take away the heart.
Joel 3: 18 mountains shall drop down new wine.
Matt. 9: 17 (Mark 2: 22; Luke 5: 37) new wine into old bottles.
Mark 15: 23 gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh.
Luke 1: 15 shall drink neither wine nor strong drink.
John 2: 3 they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith.
Acts 2: 13 These men are full of new wine.
Eph. 5: 18 be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess.
1 Tim. 3: 3 (Titus 1: 7) Not given to wine.
1 Tim. 5: 23 use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake.
Titus 2: 3 aged women . . . not given to much wine.
1 Pet. 4: 3 walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine.
Rev. 16: 19 wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/w/76

 

[why_me]

lol why me, this is Mormon folklore based on ZERO knowledge of wine making. Wine is wine, and Romans had it down to a fine art. They knew how to jack up the alcohol level.

You can control the alcohol level to some extent but it cannot be removed, or even controlled to a level of “juice”. But the general practice was to water the wine down. And I agree, that for every day use of wine that people did water it down. It was still wine, still contained alcohol, and would still give you a warm buzz. Which is not being drunk! You are like all Mormons, who think that drinking a glass of wine makes you a drunkard.

And Jesus turned water into wine, NOT grape juice. That was probably some mighty fine wine, don’t you think? Which, this was at a wedding party. If someone produced non-alcoholic wine at a Jewish wedding that wouldn’t have been seen as any kind of miracle, more like a fizzle almost-made-it miracle.

Read the bible verses I posted and see just what the bible says about wine. It is not a pretty picture. Now about Jesus and turning the water into wine, I do believe that this was one miracle that he did not want to do. But because it was his mother who asked him, he did it. But he did not want to do it. In fact, it probably galled him to do it.

The alcohol content can be so low that it no longer may be consided an alcoholic drink. If wine could be used as a water substitute, it probably wasn’t too strong.

 

[why_me]

I’m a late-comer to the thread, and didn’t get past this post.
Isn’t the placing in a book a statement of “truth is yet to be revealed” actually stating “this is it,” this is “truth” that “truth is yet to be revealed”?
This seems much like saying “there are no absolutes”…

I think that there are certainl absolutes. I am not a post-modernist. However, for JS the problem was simple: The religions of his day were each claiming their truth based on their doctrine that was written in a book (I am not referring to the bible). It was a very contentious time in upstate new york. For JS, as a youth, he was just a little confused about it all and developed a disliking for absolutes engraved in stone. For him, there is truth, but more truth is yet to be discovered. But when a faith claims that all truth is in this one book that they have, then the problem begins because other truths may be overlooked.

The backgroud to the post is simple: the catholics on this forum claimed that the mormon church has no doctrine as the catholics do in the catechism. I just wanted to show the difference in outlook.

And that is the background of the piece I presented in my first post on this thread.

 

[jerome2kph]

You got it wrong. The catholics on this thread have informed me that there is no marriage in heaven. Rather, when we die we become angels with god.

Now mormons claim that the angel moroni visited Joseph Smith. And Moroni was once a man.

Humans and angels are different beings. We wont’ become angels but we will have angelic ranks in heaven.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

You got it wrong. The catholics on this thread have informed me that there is no marriage in heaven. Rather, when we die we become angels with god.

Now mormons claim that the angel moroni visited Joseph Smith. And Moroni was once a man.

What has been said is from the bible were Jesus said when we die we become LIKE angles. non of the Catholic here have said nor does the bible say we become angles.

 

[AMDGtoo]

You got it wrong. The catholics on this thread have informed me that there is no marriage in heaven. Rather, when we die we become angels with god.

The LDS crowd have misread yet another couple of Scripture verses–you have ignored the little word “as” (meaning in this case, “in the same manner”) and also the little word “unto” (in this case meaning “toward the condition” or simply “like”.). Mark 12:25 (KJV) states “For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.” And Luke 20:36 states “Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels”.

No you have it wrong. Men do not become angels when they die. Angels are a whole other creation. What the Catholics have been telling you is simply that there is no marriage in heaven not that the Scriptures are false and man becomes an angel when he dies.

 

[AMDGtoo]

Here are some scriptures or verses taken from the bible about wine. I dedicate them to my winebibbing friends on this thread!

TOPICAL GUIDE
Wine
See also Drunkenness; Winebibber; Winepress; Word of Wisdom
Lev. 10: 9 Do not drink wine.
Num. 6: 3 He shall separate himself from wine.
Deut. 32: 33 Their wine is the poison of dragons.
Judg. 13: 4 drink not wine nor strong drink.
Ps. 104: 15 wine that maketh glad the heart.
Prov. 20: 1 Wine is a mocker.
Prov. 21: 17 he that loveth wine . . . shall not be rich.
Prov. 23: 30 They that tarry long at the wine.
Prov. 23: 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red.
Eccl. 10: 19 wine maketh merry.
Isa. 1: 22 thy wine mixed with water.
Isa. 5: 11 (2 Ne. 15: 11) continue until night, till wine inflame them.
Isa. 24: 9 They shall not drink wine.
Isa. 28: 7 they also have erred through wine.
Isa. 29: 9 (2 Ne. 8: 21) drunken, but not with wine.
Isa. 55: 1 (2 Ne. 9: 50) buy wine and milk without money.
Jer. 35: 5 set before the sons of . . . Rechabites . . . wine.
Jer. 35: 6 they said, We will drink no wine.
Ezek. 44: 21 Neither shall any priest drink wine.
Dan. 1: 8 he would not defile himself . . . with the wine.
Hosea 3: 1 look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.
Hosea 4: 11 Whoredom and wine . . . take away the heart.
Joel 3: 18 mountains shall drop down new wine.
Matt. 9: 17 (Mark 2: 22; Luke 5: 37) new wine into old bottles.
Mark 15: 23 gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh.
Luke 1: 15 shall drink neither wine nor strong drink.
John 2: 3 they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith.
Acts 2: 13 These men are full of new wine.
Eph. 5: 18 be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess.
1 Tim. 3: 3 (Titus 1: 7) Not given to wine.
1 Tim. 5: 23 use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake.
Titus 2: 3 aged women . . . not given to much wine.
1 Pet. 4: 3 walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine.
Rev. 16: 19 wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/w/76

I couldn’t help but notice that some, most of these quotes are without context, truncated to have a completely different meaning than what it was supposed to have (equaling drunkeness with simply using wine properly), and even directly misquoting (for instance, John 2:3 in your list simply says that “they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith” but it actually says, I quote from a KJV, “And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.”) Your LDS sources always “spin” things and serve you so poorly?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Read the bible verses I posted and see just what the bible says about wine. It is not a pretty picture. Now about Jesus and turning the water into wine, I do believe that this was one miracle that he did not want to do. But because it was his mother who asked him, he did it. But he did not want to do it. In fact, it probably galled him to do it.

Now you are just making stuff up.

The alcohol content can be so low that it no longer may be consided an alcoholic drink. If wine could be used as a water substitute, it probably wasn’t too strong.

More making stuff up.

 

[why_me]

I couldn’t help but notice that some, most of these quotes are without context, truncated to have a completely different meaning than what it was supposed to have (equaling drunkeness with simply using wine properly), and even directly misquoting (for instance, John 2:3 in your list simply says that “they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith” but it actually says, I quote from a KJV, “And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.”) Your LDS sources always “spin” things and serve you so poorly?

The lds source just took a portion of the sentence to fit it into a study guide. In the KJV, which the mormons use, the verse states clearly what you just wrote.

No different meaning but maybe a different interpretation.

 

[why_me]

Now you are just making stuff up.

More making stuff up.

If you read the verses mentioned it does look as if wine is frowned upon. The mormons did not just make up those verses. They are in the bible.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Here are some scriptures or verses taken from the bible about wine. I dedicate them to my winebibbing friends on this thread!

Luke 1: 15 shall drink neither wine nor strong drink.

Once again, you need to study what a Catholic understands and believes. Or, stop calling yourself a Catholic.

To begin with, this verse is an Angel (not a human) telling Zechariah about his unborn son, John the Baptist.

So let’s put it in context first:

5 In the days of Herod, King of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah of the priestly division of Abijah; his wife was from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
6 Both were righteous in the eyes of God, observing all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly.
7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren and both were advanced in years.
8 Once when he was serving as priest in his division’s turn before God,
9 according to the practice of the priestly service, he was chosen by lot to enter the sanctuary of the Lord to burn incense.
10 Then, when the whole assembly of the people was praying outside at the hour of the incense offering,
11 the angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right of the altar of incense.
12 Zechariah was troubled by what he saw, and fear came upon him.
13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, because your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall name him John.
14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth,
15 ** for he will be great in the sight of (the) Lord. He will drink neither wine nor strong drink.** 6 He will be filled with the holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb,
16 and he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God.
17 He will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of fathers toward children and the disobedient to the understanding of the righteous, to prepare a people fit for the Lord.”
18 Then Zechariah said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.”
19 And the angel said to him in reply, “I am Gabriel, who stand before God. I was sent to speak to you and to announce to you this good news.
20 But now you will be speechless and unable to talk until the day these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled at their proper time.”

From the New American Bible, the footnote for this verse 15 is:“He will drink neither wine nor strong drink: like Samson (Judges 13:4-5) and Samuel (1 Sam 1:11 LXX and 4QSama), John is to be consecrated by Nazirite vow and set apart for the Lord’s service.”

Judges 13:4 is also in your list, which is one of the verses describing the rules or laws for a Nazirite.

So, what is a Nazirite vow?

From the Jewish encyclopedia:

“Three restrictions are imposed upon the Nazarite, according to Num. vi.: he may not take wine, or anything made from grapes; he may not cut the hair of his head; he may not touch the dead, not even the body of his father or mother. If a Nazarite has become unclean by accident, he must offer a sacrifice and begin the period of his vow anew.”

This is what that verse is talking about, now maybe you can study and come to understand what the other verses are saying, not what the Mormon spin du jour is telling you.

Also, if Mormons are going to follow the Nazirite vow, then they also need to not cut their hair or touch the dead.

You can also read about a Nazarite at the Catholic encyclopedia.

Now, isn’t that better than making stuff up??

 

[RebeccaJ]

If you read the verses mentioned it does look as if wine is frowned upon. The mormons did not just make up those verses. They are in the bible.

You are making up what the verses are intending.

 

[PaulDupre]

The idea that Jesus and the apostles did not drink wine is patently ridiculous and only demonstrates how woefully ignorant Mormons are of the bible. Because they consider the bible to be corrupted and untrustworthy, they pay lip service to it (for missionary purposes) but don’t bother to really study or learn it. They only concentrate on the few verses they can take out of context in an attempt to legitimize the gnostic and pagan teachings of Joseph Smith.

 

[why_me]

The idea that Jesus and the apostles did not drink wine is patently ridiculous and only demonstrates how woefully ignorant Mormons are of the bible. Because they consider the bible to be corrupted and untrustworthy, they pay lip service to it (for missionary purposes) but don’t bother to really study or learn it. They only concentrate on the few verses they can take out of context in an attempt to legitimize the gnostic and pagan teachings of Joseph Smith.

I have already claimed that wine was drunk because of its purity. The problem comes with the strength of the wine. As has been demonstrated some scholars claim that the wine was not as strong as we have today. And I have also shown where a drink can contain a small amount of alcohol and still not be claimed as an alcoholic substance.

Did Jesus drink wine? Probably so. But did it contain a strong amount of alcohol? Probably not.

 

[why_me]

Once again, you need to study what a Catholic understands and believes. Or, stop calling yourself a Catholic.

To begin with, this verse is an Angel (not a human) telling Zechariah about his unborn son, John the Baptist.

So let’s put it in context first:

5 In the days of Herod, King of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah of the priestly division of Abijah; his wife was from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
6 Both were righteous in the eyes of God, observing all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly.
7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren and both were advanced in years.
8 Once when he was serving as priest in his division’s turn before God,
9 according to the practice of the priestly service, he was chosen by lot to enter the sanctuary of the Lord to burn incense.
10 Then, when the whole assembly of the people was praying outside at the hour of the incense offering,
11 the angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right of the altar of incense.
12 Zechariah was troubled by what he saw, and fear came upon him.
13 But the angel said to him, "Do not be afraid, Zechariah, because your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall name him John.
14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth,
15 ** for he will be great in the sight of (the) Lord. He will drink neither wine nor strong drink.** ****URL=“http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke1.htm#foot6”]6

He will be filled with the holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb,
16 and he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God.
17 He will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of fathers toward children and the disobedient to the understanding of the righteous, to prepare a people fit for the Lord."
18 Then Zechariah said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.”
19 And the angel said to him in reply, “I am Gabriel, who stand before God. I was sent to speak to you and to announce to you this good news.
20 But now you will be speechless and unable to talk until the day these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled at their proper time.”

From the New American Bible, the footnote for this verse 15 is:“He will drink neither wine nor strong drink: like Samson (Judges 13:4-5) and Samuel (1 Sam 1:11 LXX and 4QSama), John is to be consecrated by Nazirite vow and set apart for the Lord’s service.”

Judges 13:4 is also in your list, which is one of the verses describing the rules or laws for a Nazirite.

So, what is a Nazirite vow?

From the Jewish encyclopedia:

“Three restrictions are imposed upon the Nazarite, according to Num. vi.: he may not take wine, or anything made from grapes; he may not cut the hair of his head; he may not touch the dead, not even the body of his father or mother. If a Nazarite has become unclean by accident, he must offer a sacrifice and begin the period of his vow anew.”

This is what that verse is talking about, now maybe you can study and come to understand what the other verses are saying, not what the Mormon spin du jour is telling you.

Also, if Mormons are going to follow the Nazirite vow, then they also need to not cut their hair or touch the dead.

You can also read about a Nazarite at the Catholic encyclopedia.

Now, isn’t that better than making stuff up??

What did I make up? Wine was frowned upon. It seems to me that the Nazarite was not to drink strong drink and wine. Why? Also, notice that it says that he will drink neither wine or strong drink. Why? And wine was not considered to be strong drink and so, it was a weak in alcohol substance. But still frowned upon.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

What did I make up? Wine was frowned upon. It seems to me that the Nazarite was not to drink strong drink and wine. Why? Also, notice that it says that he will drink neither wine or strong drink. Why? And wine was not considered to be strong drink and so, it was a weak in alcohol substance. But still frowned upon.

What was frowned up on was drunkenness. A gall of wine with meals was normal and thought nothing of. Since we do know that “grape Juice” is a modern invention of Mr Welch the debate over if Jesus drank wine is pointless. Wine is to this day not considered a strong drink because it is not

wine 24 proof = 12% alcohol
whiskey 80 proof = 40% alcohol

that is the standards today and more than like has not change but a point or 2 over all these many years since the first grape was run through the presses and wine drank.

I do not see Jesus ever having drank to the point of intoxication, and as was the custom of the day he did added water to the wine to weaken it was more than likely stronger back then ( have you ever had home made wine, that is strong stuff).

I todays world we have many option on what to drink but that does not many wine and strong drink should not be consumed it means do not be a drunkard just as it did when it was written.

I try to remember if we look at the Bible God gave very few rules as things went along at mans request more and more were given. KISS

K keep

I it

S simple

S stupid

God rule are a KISS man added and makes it a lot harder.

 

[RebeccaJ]

What did I make up? Wine was frowned upon. It seems to me that the Nazarite was not to drink strong drink and wine. Why? Also, notice that it says that he will drink neither wine or strong drink. Why? And wine was not considered to be strong drink and so, it was a weak in alcohol substance. But still frowned upon.

Where, did it say in any of what I posted, that wine was frowned upon?

 

[why_me]

Where, did it say in any of what I posted, that wine was frowned upon?

Here:

**Originally Posted by why me
If you read the verses mentioned it does look as if wine is frowned upon. The mormons did not just make up those verses. They are in the bible. **

Rebecca: You are making up what the verses are intending.

 

[AMDGtoo]

Here:

**Originally Posted by why me
If you read the verses mentioned it does look as if wine is frowned upon. The mormons did not just make up those verses. They are in the bible. **

Rebecca: You are making up what the verses are intending.

Oh, yes it does appear that you are making up what the verses are intending. The verses do not say that wine is frowned upon generally for all and at all times. A half-truth is an untruth. This seems even worse because there was actually the intention to deceive.