Mormon Doctrine

[Todd520]

Polytheism is defined as believing in more than one god. LDS believe in at least four specific gods/goddess (at least one heavenly mother, possibly more if you go down the “father practices plural marriage” path). LDS theology allows for an infinite number of gods. There is no misunderstanding going on, where LDS are being misunderstood and in actuality there is a belief in ONE God. A plurality of gods is clearly taught in LDS doctrines.

In the sense of a pantheon of gods, that you are looking for, it exists. The LDS father procreates spirit children with a mother/goddess(es).

Trinitarian doctrine defines God as ONE. That non-Christians misunderstand or attempt to construe ONE God as polytheistic, does not reflect actual Christian understanding or belief.

Nope, We both believe in the Trinity, any research will show this true. (I would love to see a scriptural reference to the LDS Quad, if you can find it)

The RCC Trinity is sort of a spirit Chrimea, three heads/persons with one spirit body
The LDS Trinity is sort of three bodies with wireless, so they act in perfect unity as one.

Remember Soul = Spirt.
I think LDS doctrine has our spirits existing since the beginning.
So how does the RCC heavenly father actually father new souls every day?

 

[Pahoran]

If people are still married in Heaven why didn’t Jesus just answer the Sadduccees question then.

Jesus more than once deflected questions which He regarded as impertinent. The Sadducees thought they had a “gotcha” question with their levirate marriage case (apparently derived from the book of Tobit.)

(When Latter-day Saints are confronted by smart-alecks with “gotcha” questions, we ask ourselves, “what would Jesus do?” and sometimes decide to deflect them.)

Note that the real point of the Sadducees’ question was not to find out his views on marriage, but to “catch” him on the resurrection.

Note also that the answer Jesus gave was strictly accurate according to LDS doctrine.

Matthew 22:
25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: (Etc.)

Q: Who is the woman in question?
A: A Sadducee woman, married to seven Sadducee men in turn.
Q: What is required for a marriage to be eternal?
A: Short version: it must be solemnised for eternity by one holding the keys to that ordinance, and the couple must keep their covenants.
Q: Did Sadducees, who did not believe in the resurrection, perform eternal marriages?
A: What do you think?

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[RebeccaJ]

Nope, We both believe in the Trinity, any research will show this true. (I would love to see a scriptural reference to the LDS Quad, if you can find it)

The RCC Trinity is sort of a spirit Chrimea, three heads/persons with one spirit body
The LDS Trinity is sort of three bodies with wireless, so they act in perfect unity as one.

Remember Soul = Spirt.
I think LDS doctrine has our spirits existing since the beginning.
So how does the RCC heavenly father actually father new souls every day?

Todd, you are in extreme error in regards to the doctrine of the Trinity.

You also are very misinformed in regards to LDS doctrine.

It is an interesting, if not confusing, place to be. May God guide you.

 

[Pahoran]

Yes, I know, LDS construe the pagan/idolatry practices and error of belief found in the OT as something they themselves should believe.

So when “three men” (as representatives of the divine council) visited Abraham in his tent, that was a “pagan/idolatry practice and error of belief,” was it?

How odd!

The “Divine Council” theme is a recurring one among the prophets, not among those they tried to call to repentance.

Who is the “we” and the “us” of Genesis 2?

Ever read the first chapter of Job?

Into what was Isaiah admitted only after his lips were cleansed?

I recommend paying attention to the constant and consistent way in which GOD pulls His chosen people away from this error. He doesn’t lead them deeper into it.

Please point out where God constantly and consistently pulled anyone away from the Divine Council.

But considering this idea that truth doesn’t matter, I don’t know why you bother to believe anything at all.

Whose idea is it “that truth doesn’t matter?” Certainly not mine.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[Todd520]

Todd, you are in extreme error in regards to the doctrine of the Trinity.

You also are very misinformed in regards to LDS doctrine.

It is an interesting, if not confusing, place to be. May God guide you.

My statemens are accurate, at a high level.
I’m dissapointed you refused to refute or answer me on any specific point.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Who is the “we” and the “us” of Genesis 2?

The HOLY TRINITY.

To the rest of your questions:
Isaiah 43

10 You are my witnesses, says the LORD, my servants whom I have chosen To know and believe in me and understand that it is I. Before me no god was formed, and after me there shall be none.

Whose idea is it “that truth doesn’t matter?” Certainly not mine.

That is what your points 5 and 6 say to me in the other thread on Mormon doctrine. See my post #87 in that thread.

 

[Pahoran]

Todd, you are in extreme error in regards to the doctrine of the Trinity.

The ontological Trinity is rather difficult to understand, and a great many people have a great deal of difficulty articulating it.

You also are very misinformed in regards to LDS doctrine.

Todd still has a good deal to learn; but in this instance, I think he has nailed it. LDS “theology” can be well described as pre-creedal trinitarianism, i.e. we see three divine entities who are in some sense one, and we reconcile the threeness and the oneness without reference to the creeds. As such, we seem to have arrived in a similar place as the “Social trinitarians,” except that we got there first, by about a century and a half.

It is an interesting, if not confusing, place to be. May God guide you.

Clearly He is already doing so.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[Pahoran]

The HOLY TRINITY.

Thank you for expressing your faith. I’m not certain that Moses would have called it that.

To the rest of your questions:
Isaiah 43

10 You are my witnesses, says the LORD, my servants whom I have chosen To know and believe in me and understand that it is I. Before me no god was formed, and after me there shall be none.

But that doesn’t answer my questions, Rebecca; it simply brushes them aside.

That is what your points 5 and 6 say to me in the other thread on Mormon doctrine. See my post #87 in that thread.

No, it grossly misrepresents what my points say in that thread.

Please see that you do not repeat this error.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[RebeccaJ]

Clearly He is already doing so.

Galatians 1

6 I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel 7 (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!

Also the council given to all those sealed as His at baptism:

65 “In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son.” Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on *Hebrews *1:1-2:

In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thank you for expressing your faith. I’m not certain that Moses would have called it that.

Put Moses in context please. He lived before the fulfillment of God’s promises to His people. That fulfillment being Jesus Christ.

But that doesn’t answer my questions, Rebecca; it simply brushes them aside.

God saying He is ONE, and there is no other, is hardly brushing anything aside. It is the foundation for where your understanding of scripture should begin.

No, it grossly misrepresents what my points say in that thread.

Please see that you do not repeat this error.

Maybe you’d like to answer in that thread, because that is honestly how it reads to me.

 

[Javl]

Please keep in mind that the LDS;

1 ) Do not believe in, or worship, the same God as the Christians.

2 ) Do not believe in the same Trinity as the Christians.

3 ) Appropriate the name Christian, which in the true sense of the word they are not.

4 ) Use the Bible as an adjunct to the Book of Mormon.

5 ) Do not believe the Bible is correctly translated.

6 ) Consider the Catholic Church has apostasized. ( The LDS church of today hardly
resembles the one of Joseph Smith ).

7 ) Cannot provide legitimate proof for the tales listed in the Book of Mormon.

There are many other points that can be listed, but these I think are the major ones. I,
personally, admire and respect them for their zeal and willingness to act for their religion
and beliefs. But, they are heretical and in total error. Without true authority, the LDS
mis-use, misinterpret, and misunderstand the Judaeo-Christian scriptures.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Pahoran]

Please keep in mind that the LDS;

1 ) Do not believe in, or worship, the same God as the Christians.

Permit me to correct your statement. It should read: Latter-day Saint Christians believe different things about the one true God, whom other Christians also worship.

2 ) Do not believe in the same Trinity as the Christians.

Again: Latter-day Saint Christians believe different things about the Trinity.

3 ) Appropriate the name Christian, which in the true sense of the word they are not.

That’s really rather offensive, if you stop and think about it. But don’t worry; we’re all pretty thick-skinned. We have to be, to stick around here.

But I’d like you to think about at least making an effort at being more tactful when you discuss the faith of others.

I suggest you read Offenders for a Word, by Peterson and Ricks. It actually settles the above question, once and for all. You can read it free, here.

4 ) Use the Bible as an adjunct to the Book of Mormon.

Please see my thread on the sources and scope of LDS doctrine. We use the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price together. They harmonise nicely and are seamlessly cross-referenced. The Bible makes up about 50% of our Scripture study curriculum.

5 ) Do not believe the Bible is correctly translated.

It is more accurate to say that we don’t believe it is inerrantly translated.

Instead of announcing what Mormons do and don’t believe, it might be better to follow Bishop Stendahl’s advice and allow us to speak for ourselves.

6 ) Consider the Catholic Church has apostasized.

We certainly don’t single out the Catholics for that. As at 1820, the Prophet Joseph Smith reported that the Lord told him that no Church then on the earth was acknowledged as His.

( The LDS church of today hardly resembles the one of Joseph Smith ).

That’s not necessarily the same thing. I would argue that the differences are superficial rather than essential.

7 ) Cannot provide legitimate proof for the tales listed in the Book of Mormon.

Can the Catholic Church – can any church – provide “legitimate proof” for the resurrection of Jesus? Or any of the miracles recorded in the Bible?

There are many other points that can be listed, but these I think are the major ones. I, personally, admire and respect them for their zeal and willingness to act for their religion and beliefs. But, they are heretical and in total error. Without true authority, the LDS mis-use, misinterpret, and misunderstand the Judaeo-Christian scriptures.

Thank you for your opinion. You will understand that believing Latter-day Saints see things differently.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[smad0142]

But where is eternal marriage in the Bible? When did Jesus talk about it? My grandma is a Mormon and we have spoken about religion alot and I am unimpressed with her answers and I think it may be because she is not that intellectual. Could some LDS members show where their beliefs stem from the Bible not the BoM? Also how do you guys interpret the opening verses of Galatians? I am not attacking Mormons just asking questions.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Nope, We both believe in the Trinity, any research will show this true. (I would love to see a scriptural reference to the LDS Quad, if you can find it)

The RCC Trinity is sort of a spirit Chrimea, three heads/persons with one spirit body
The LDS Trinity is sort of three bodies with wireless, so they act in perfect unity as one.

Remember Soul = Spirt.
I think LDS doctrine has our spirits existing since the beginning.
So how does the RCC heavenly father actually father new souls every day?

He creates them everyday. How do the LDS Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother sire “literal offspring”? Are they still creating these offspring or did the siring of offspring end some time ago?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Because if you have no Doctrine or beliefs on the subject, then you are null and void,
and ANY description is a conflict with your lack of description.

So why even try discuss. Agree to disagree.

That wasn’t my why. You bullied him/her into starting a thread to ask his/her questions and then you refuse to answer them until yours are answered. Why does he have to explain himself to get the questions answered when you seemed to imply you’d be happy to answer them if they were asked on their own topic? Why do you feel you are entitled to control the questioning here?

 

[Todd520]

That wasn’t my why. You bullied him/her into starting a thread to ask his/her questions and then you refuse to answer them until yours are answered. Why does he have to explain himself to get the questions answered when you seemed to imply you’d be happy to answer them if they were asked on their own topic? Why do you feel you are entitled to control the questioning here?

If you read my posts since joining this site, I’m clearly not a bully nor rarely in charge of the questions.

I stated I personally would not respond until I had context on the Catholic teachings in this area. I consider it clarification on the question and since I’m just a guy spending his free time here, it’s my prerogative to ask for clarification. It’s a fair exchange of dialog and I hoped it would reduce blatant ‘bashing’ on my response.

 

[RebeccaJ]

My statemens are accurate, at a high level.
I’m dissapointed you refused to refute or answer me on any specific point.

No, they are not accurate and I don’t see the need to refute a straw man.

 

[ParkerD]

1. But where is eternal marriage in the Bible? When did Jesus talk about it? My grandma is a Mormon and we have spoken about religion alot and I am unimpressed with her answers and I think it may be because she is not that intellectual. Could some LDS members show where their beliefs stem from the Bible not the BoM?
2. Also how do you guys interpret the opening verses of Galatians? I am not attacking Mormons just asking questions.

SMAD0142,
Thanks for asking questions so you can understand your grandma better.

1. There have been a few threads on the subject of eternal marriage in recent months on this website, but to be brief:

It is quite clear that the Sadducees were familiar with a doctrine of marriage still continuing after the resurrection, even though they themselves didn’t believe in the resurrection. That is why the Sadducees who confronted Jesus about their hypothetical “brothers” did so to try and show that Moses did not teach about the resurrection, and thus to defend their own beliefs.

Jesus answered the Sadducees that there would be no marriage in heaven for such persons as the unbelieving Sadducees, but that they would be “as the angels” instead.

Jesus had also taught that “what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder”, giving the example of the marriage of Adam and Eve who were married in an eternal union of marriage. You can look up those passages in Matthew. (If you want to read the older threads, let me know and I’ll find them in the past threads.)

1. When Paul was writing to the Galatians, he evidently was reprimanding some who had “so soon removed … unto another gospel” (meaning they had changed the doctrines in some way). His use of the words “though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed” is a very adamant instruction. Clearly, he doesn’t mean that he or any other apostle will “preach any other gospel,” nor that an angel sent from the presence of God would “preach any other gospel,” but used those words to emphasize that the Galatian members needed to be wary of following anyone who didn’t have the doctrines that were the foundation doctrines as taught by the apostles.

Compare Revelation 14:6-7 about an angel bringing the gospel to the earth, thus seeing that an angel can indeed bring the true gospel to the world. Compare also all the foundation doctrines taught by the apostles, including the continuously emphasized doctrine of Jesus Christ being the cornerstone of the church and of the need for the “revelation of Jesus Christ” just as Paul wrote in Galatians 1:12 and 1 Corinthians 2 and 3. He was warning against following that which “pleased men” (v. 10) thus showing that the doctrinal changes among some of the Galatians were evidently “pleasing” to men. We just don’t have the details of what those changes were.

I hope this may be a tiny bit helpful for you to understand your grandma better.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Permit me to correct your statement. It should read: Latter-day Saint Christians believe different things about

 

[smad0142]

Parker thanks so much for taking the time to respond to my questions. I still get hung up on the passage from Galatians because for people who believe in the Bible but not the BoM we see that passage as almost being written just for Joseph Smith. I always thought that that passage in Galatians was obviously not talking about a real angel but a demon pretending to be an angel. Please don’t think I am attacking Mormonism though, I am saying how I understand it so maybe you can expalin it differently to me.

Here are a few more questions:

Parhon made the argument that people can be married for eternity here on earth and that that does not oppose what Jesus said about marriage at the Ressurection. But in the book Gospel Principles it says people can be eternally married on earth or in Heaven. Doesn’t the or in Heaven part oppose Jesus’ teaching on marriage?

In the book Gospel Principles it says that in the Exaltation we will become gods. It does not say angels like Todd keeps trying to say it says, it says gods. How does that work in line with all the teachings about no other gods, especially from the OT?

Also the in the section entitled Exaltation it says that God the Father was once a man on an earth, not the earth, just like Jesus Christ was on this earth. Does that also imply that God the Father has a god the father just like Jesus Christ does? Isn’t this then polytheism?

Thank you so much from Pahron, Murdock, Todd, and Parker who realize I am just asking questions and not attacking them. Also thank you so much for your answers and patience in answering my questions.