Mormon idea of Eucharist/ Communion/Sacrament

[SteveVH]

Let me try and explain a little more. We have been given in the D&C and Book of Mormon the words of the sacrament prayer. Here is the prayer for the bread:
In regards to your question, I would like to point out some important terms:

"to bless and sanctify this bread" - Yes the bread is sanctified to those who meet certain conditions. However, if they do not, it is does not sanctify them. After all, can one eat in sin and expect sanctification? We have these words from the Book of Mormon, “For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul” (3 Ne 18:29, see also 1 Cor 11:29)

"to the souls of all those who partake of it" - The blessing is only to those who eat the bread.

"take upon them the name of they Son" - They also must be willing to see themselves as His by taking His name upon them.

"Always remember him" - They must be willing to remember the Son in their daily walk.

"Keep his commandments" - They must recommit to keep his commandments.

Then, and only then, for that person is the bread sanctified. The bread then becomes an outward symbol of an inner commitment to follow Christ. Without the commitment, without the covenant it is simply bread. The making and keeping of covenants is the key. Thus we do not need to attach special meaning to a piece of bread that was never intended. Indeed by doing so one may be approaching idolatry rather than worship.

In the Catholic Church, the bread is no longer bread, but the very body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. The interior disposition of the person receiving does not change the nature of the Eucharist. It is always Eucharist. The Apostels believed this very thing, which was why Paul wrote to the Corinthians to inform them that, “Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.” (1 Cor 11:29) The substance of the Eucharist does not change because one is unworthy, rather the unworthy person is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord for the very reason that it doesn’t change. It is no longer a piece of bread.

Now you have stated: “we do not need to attach special meaning to a piece of bread that was never intended”. How could one be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord if it is, indeed, just a piece of bread? I should back up a little here. In the LDS Church you are, in fact, quite correct in saying that it is just a piece of bread because there is no authority to concecrate. However, this is not what Christ intended. "And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

The Eucharist, the true presence of the Lord, is the center, the heart of the Church from which all else emanates; the source and summit of our faith. Why? Because it is the true presence of Jesus Christ. He kept his promise and did not leave us orphans. Unless and until you experience the intimacy of Christ in the Eucharist you really have no idea how far off the path the LDS Church has strayed. It has lost, among other things, the one, most precious gift of Christ to the Church; himself. Communion is not about having a few snacks and remembering what Christ did for us. It is about an intimate relationship with God in which we consume him so that he may consume us.
.

 

[Mystophilus]

One thing I have a hard time doing is wrapping my head around the idea that Mormons use store bought bread and water for Sacrament. I will be honest even when I was Mormon it was hard to get used to. I was Catholic before and honestly they cannot be compared.

What are all of your thoughts?

Here is an article on it lds.about.com/od/basicsgospelprinciples/p/what_is_sacrament.htm

I know a place where communion is one cup of soft drink and one store-bought bun between 20-30 people, but much of the reason for this is that this is all that the people can afford. They are, however, very sincere in their devotion. I think about that, and about passages like this one:

Isa 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
Isa 1:12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
Isa 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

See also Jesus’ arguments with the Pharisees over ‘proper’ Sabbath behaviour. I very much doubt that God is as concerned about ritual form as about our reasons for following or not following ritual form: a ritual can become empty and faithless, but eschewing a ritual can be empty and prideful.

 

[Patavium]

I know a place where communion is one cup of soft drink and one store-bought bun between 20-30 people, but much of the reason for this is that this is all that the people can afford.

Isn’t there a CHURCH close by? I don’t remember the last time I went to a Roman Catholic Church, and they told me to pay to receive communion. I believe it must be similar in noncatholic churches. No reason to offend God by drinking Pepsi, and eating store bought bread.

 

[SteveVH]

I know a place where communion is one cup of soft drink and one store-bought bun between 20-30 people, but much of the reason for this is that this is all that the people can afford. They are, however, very sincere in their devotion. I think about that, and about passages like this one:

Isa 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
Isa 1:12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
Isa 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

See also Jesus’ arguments with the Pharisees over ‘proper’ Sabbath behaviour. I very much doubt that God is as concerned about ritual form as about our reasons for following or not following ritual form: a ritual can become empty and faithless, but eschewing a ritual can be empty and prideful.

If I understand you, you have chosen verses in an effort to show that God does not delight in the sacrifices of men. If you are trying to draw a prallel between this and the Eucharist you are just plain mistaken. There is only one sacrifice that is pleasing to God and which brings sanctification and salvation to mankind and that is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is this sacrifice that is offered to the Father each and every day in the Catholic Church and is not a sacrifice of men, but of the Son of God who ws both priest and victim.

As far as people being sincere in their devotion (and believing that this somehow makes it ok), the notion that soft drinks and a peice of bread is somehow pleasing to God and a way to enter into communion with him, no matter how sincere one may be, is misguided thinking. Since the “Reformation” the Eucharist, the source and summit of the Christian faith, has steadily faded in meaning and understanding until we end up with a travesty and, really, a mockery of this most holy of sacraments. The Protestant world, for the most part, has not a clue of the true meaning of the sacrament, not to mention that the word “sacrament” is not even in the vocabulary of the majority of Protestant denominations.

Seeing that you are Anglican, I am very surprised that you have this interpretation of the Eucharist; that it is something akin to throwing a goat on the fire or sacrificing a turtle dove. I hope I have misunderstood you.

 

[Prague]

Let me try and explain a little more. We have been given in the D&C and Book of Mormon the words of the sacrament prayer. Here is the prayer for the bread:
In regards to your question, I would like to point out some important terms:

"to bless and sanctify this bread" - Yes the bread is sanctified to those who meet certain conditions. However, if they do not, it is does not sanctify them. After all, can one eat in sin and expect sanctification? We have these words from the Book of Mormon, “For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul” (3 Ne 18:29, see also 1 Cor 11:29)

"to the souls of all those who partake of it" - The blessing is only to those who eat the bread.

"take upon them the name of they Son" - They also must be willing to see themselves as His by taking His name upon them.

"Always remember him" - They must be willing to remember the Son in their daily walk.

"Keep his commandments" - They must recommit to keep his commandments.

Then, and only then, for that person is the bread sanctified. The bread then becomes an outward symbol of an inner commitment to follow Christ. Without the commitment, without the covenant it is simply bread. The making and keeping of covenants is the key. Thus we do not need to attach special meaning to a piece of bread that was never intended. Indeed by doing so one may be approaching idolatry rather than worship.

So, the bread is blessed and sanctified, but it only kicks in if the person partaking of it is considered worthy? Then you throw the leftovers into the garbage! How sad.

 

[Cathhsmom]

Allow me to provide the Latter-day Saint perspective.

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that the Sacrament is done in remembrance of the atoning sacrifice of our Savior, Jesus Christ. The Sacrament is not merely symbolic, but the bread and water used are blessed and sanctified by the priesthood. Latter-day Saints believe that the Sacrament is not only a remembrance of Christ’s atonement, but that it also does something, namely, the renewal of our baptismal covenants. Through the Sacrament, we receive a remission of our sins, and receive the Spirit. Because this is a sacred experience for Latter-day Saints, we are called to examine ourselves prior to partaking, so that we do not partake unworthily.

Ok, this is the first that I have heard this. I was blessed as a baby in the Mormon church. My mom left the church when I was young. My grandmother, aunt and her daughters are still Mormons. I did go to church with them when we would visit, and I did take the bread and water. (this was before becoming Catholic) I was never told any of what you said. I was never told to examine myself, and I wasn’t baptized. In fact, when I was about 10, I was going with my sister, a Mormon family would pick us up and take us to the Mormon church. Neither one of us were baptized, and both of us received.

BTW, just on a side note, I remember those loaves of bread. They would freeze them and thaw them before the service. It is just one of those memories that comes readily to mind when I think of the Mormon service. That and those teeny tiny little paper cups in the tray that had about 1 swallow in them. You would take it, swallow, crumple the cup and put it in the middle of the try to pass to the next person.

 

[Mystophilus]

If I understand you, you have chosen verses in an effort to show that God does not delight in the sacrifices of men. If you are trying to draw a prallel between this and the Eucharist you are just plain mistaken.

I have chosen verses in an effort to show that Scripture says what it says, nor am I trying to say anything other than what I have said.

 

[Mystophilus]

Isn’t there a CHURCH close by? I don’t remember the last time I went to a Roman Catholic Church, and they told me to pay to receive communion. I believe it must be similar in noncatholic churches. No reason to offend God by drinking Pepsi, and eating store bought bread.

The comment about that being all that they can afford is not because anyone was asked to pay to receive communion, but because that is all that their whole church can afford to provide on a weekly basis while the people are trying to feed their children. The church building is a corrugated iron shack in the middle of a shanty town. They are not Catholic, and are only really Protestant by default: they first encountered the Gospel only a few *decades *ago, and do not yet have the whole Bible in their own language, let alone the kind of complex knowledge of Church history which can confer an accurate understanding of denominational divisions.

They are doing their best with what little they have.

 

[ConstantineTG]

One thing I have a hard time doing is wrapping my head around the idea that Mormons use store bought bread and water for Sacrament. I will be honest even when I was Mormon it was hard to get used to. I was Catholic before and honestly they cannot be compared.

What are all of your thoughts?

Here is an article on it lds.about.com/od/basicsgospelprinciples/p/what_is_sacrament.htm

What is bad about store bought bread? In the early days of the Church that is what they use. Not one of the Apostles was a baker. Granted that with modern techniques in baking, store bought bread wouldn’t qualify as Communion Bread in the Catholic Church because of the extra stuff they put in there. But in Eastern Churches (Catholic and Orthodox), it is common for people to make bread at home and offer it in Church.

 

[andrewstx]

Can a mormon here tell me why they call communion THE sacrament. I never figured that one out.

In my mormon days I was (re) baptised sac #2.

I was confirmed (re) that’s sac #3.

I was ordained to the priesthood 2 or 3 times, sacrament #4

I was married in the temple (for time and all eternity), thats sacrament #5.

So why “the sacrament” when even going by mormon counting there are several?

 

[PattyPryor]

What is bad about store bought bread? In the early days of the Church that is what they use. Not one of the Apostles was a baker. Granted that with modern techniques in baking, store bought bread wouldn’t qualify as Communion Bread in the Catholic Church because of the extra stuff they put in there. But in Eastern Churches (Catholic and Orthodox), it is common for people to make bread at home and offer it in Church.

You would understand how I feel if you were once a Mormon. I’m sorry I didn’t mean ‘store bought’ was bad but how it is TREATED after it is blessed. There is still a lot of pain I have. I’m sorry I don’t explain myself well enough

Where does it say that the apostles used store bought bread?

 

[Marie5890]

Can a mormon here tell me why they call communion THE sacrament. I never figured that one out.

In my mormon days I was (re) baptised sac #2.

I was confirmed (re) that’s sac #3.

I was ordained to the priesthood 2 or 3 times, sacrament #4

I was married in the temple (for time and all eternity), thats sacrament #5.

So why “the sacrament” when even going by mormon counting there are several?

Maybe (a guess on my part) it’s because during the sacrament, it is the time that Mormons re-new, silently, all the covenants that they have made (ie in baptism, priesthood, temple, etc)

Remember, too, the LDS church doesnt view itself as a “sacramental church” but a “covenantal church”…

 

[RebeccaJ]

Maybe (a guess on my part) it’s because during the sacrament, it is the time that Mormons re-new, silently, all the covenants that they have made (ie in baptism, priesthood, temple, etc)

Remember, too, the LDS church doesnt view itself as a “sacramental church” but a “covenantal church”…

What covenants would a non-Mormon (including unbaptized children) be renewing when they eat the bread and water at a Mormon sacrament meeting?

 

[SteveVH]

I have chosen verses in an effort to show that Scripture says what it says, nor am I trying to say anything other than what I have said.

Let me put it another way then. What point were you trying to make by citing the verses you selected? Of course the Bible says what it says, however, it is the interpretation of what it says that matters. Christ told us to pluck out our eyes and cut off our hands. It says what it says. The point here is what does it say to you.

 

[SpeSalvi]

What covenants would a non-Mormon (including unbaptized children) be renewing when they eat the bread and water at a Mormon sacrament meeting?

Absolutely nothing. The LDS sacrament means absolutely nothing to those not worthy of having it.

I wonder at the LDS sacrament being so meaningless when it was such a pivotal moment in the bible. Even during sacrament meeting, it seems to just be something you get through so you can get to the talks. It seems to be based more on Christian tradition than any theological reasoning.

 

[HonoraDominum]

Absolutely nothing. The LDS sacrament means absolutely nothing to those not worthy of having it.

I wonder at the LDS sacrament being so meaningless when it was such a pivotal moment in the bible. Even during sacrament meeting, it seems to just be something you get through so you can get to the talks. It seems to be based more on Christian tradition than any theological reasoning.

I always wondered how meaningful it could be when mothers were shoving the teeny pieces of bread into baby’s and toddler’s mouths, and pouring the water from the little cups for the babies to drink.

Also, anyone who witnessed the Before and After of the “priesthood holders” knows how irreverent the process was, start to finish. But since it didn’t mean anything, I always kind of took it as kids being kids.

The Mormon sacrament, in retrospect, seems more like what the Catholics would call a Sacramental, maybe like Saint Torrelli water or the blessed wine from the feast of St. John or or other consumable sacramentals.

 

[twopekinguys]

I think I am starting to see a disturbing trend.

In various threads involving mormons, I have heard

1. Baptism is symbolic
2. Temple endowments including signs and tokens are symbolic
3. “sacrament” is symbolic

There are other things, but this should prove the point.

What is real? Is the entire mormon church “symbolic”?

1. Most Christian religions believe that Baptism has a real result.
2. If temple endowments including the oaths, signs and tokens are “symbolic”, does that mean temple marriages are “symbolic” The only comparison I can think of with this is a Catholic having a civil marriage, and then a convalidation by the Church. The convalidation provides a real sacramental bond.
3. Catholics believe the sacrament of the Eucharist is the real body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus, and not some sort of temporary housing for him, or some sort of “symbol”

I couldn’t base eternity of “symbols”, I would rather base it on reality.

 

[pmccombs]

What is real? Is the entire mormon church “symbolic”?

Yes! In fact, we’re a trademark.

 

[Mystophilus]

Let me put it another way then. What point were you trying to make by citing the verses you selected? Of course the Bible says what it says, however, it is the interpretation of what it says that matters. Christ told us to pluck out our eyes and cut off our hands. It says what it says. The point here is what does it say to you.

The point which I was making is the point which is stated at the bottom of that original comment: “I very much doubt that God is as concerned about ritual form as about our reasons for following or not following ritual form: a ritual can become empty and faithless, but eschewing a ritual can be empty and prideful.”

Perhaps you are used to people not saying what they mean, or meaning what they say, but that is not the case here.

 

[SteveVH]

The point which I was making is the point which is stated at the bottom of that original comment: “I very much doubt that God is as concerned about ritual form as about our reasons for following or not following ritual form: a ritual can become empty and faithless, but eschewing a ritual can be empty and prideful.”

Perhaps you are used to people not saying what they mean, or meaning what they say, but that is not the case here.

Your comment was made within the context of the Eucharist and the verses you chose were specifically citing sacrifices that were not pleasing to God. You spoke of a community that shares a store bought bun and soda pop at communion with the comment that they are very sincere. Your conclusion is that God doesn’t really care if we are consuming the true body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus or if we just share a snack and remember him, as long as one is sincere. Sorry, I just disagree with that line of thinking. The Eucharist cannot be reduced to only a ritual. It is the source and summit of the Christian faith.