Mormon idea of Eucharist/ Communion/Sacrament

[KathleenGee]

I try not to go on Mormon threads much anymore, but spend more time praying for them…and now Governor Romney…

I had to respond to the idea that God doesn’t care about such and such.

Jesus said, ‘Do this in memory of Me’…the Memorial for the Covenant of the Blood…where He makes us acceptable to the Lord.

So not only what we express…but the intent and way to the Lord…there is only one way to the Father for us, and it is Christ. It does matter as well the form and way Christ showed us.

 

[Patavium]

I try not to go on Mormon threads much anymore, but spend more time praying for them…and now Governor Romney…

I had to respond to the idea that God doesn’t care about such and such.

Jesus said, ‘Do this in memory of Me’…the Memorial for the Covenant of the Blood…where He makes us acceptable to the Lord.

So not only what we express…but the intent and way to the Lord…there is only one way to the Father for us, and it is Christ. It does matter as well the form and way Christ showed us.

Yes, and also you must eat my body, and drink my blood. This scandalized some of the people and left… I guess it still scandalizes people, and that’s why it is symbolic in some churches.

 

[KathleenGee]

And yet there are references in the Bible to eat to gain divinity…

Here the Mormons miss that, and have different concepts in gaining divinity than us.

 

[andrewstx]

The mormons rose from the anti-Catholic conservative Protestant theology of the time, that is why they insist on baptism of believers by total submerssion only and a symbolic view of the “Lord’s Supper”.

Conservative is not always such a good thing.

The mormons share a great deal of theology with the ultra fundamentalist “churches of Christ”.

The both believe in the apostacy/restoration dichotomy, both use total submerrsion baptism for the forgiveness of sins, both observe a symbolic only “Lord’s Supper” every sunday and no other day. Both think they are the one true church.

 

[andrewstx]

I try not to go on Mormon threads much anymore, but spend more time praying for them…and now Governor Romney…

I had to respond to the idea that God doesn’t care about such and such.

Jesus said, ‘Do this in memory of Me’…the Memorial for the Covenant of the Blood…where He makes us acceptable to the Lord.

So not only what we express…but the intent and way to the Lord…there is only one way to the Father for us, and it is Christ. It does matter as well the form and way Christ showed us.

It seems to me that the Orthodox are the new “whipping boys” of CAF. The mormon threads are just about gone, but there are several long threads addressin Orthodoxy.

Maybe this goes in cycles, momons yesterday, Orthodox now, perhaps Baptists next?

I will say that compared to the chasm between mormons and Catholics the differences between Catholics and Orthodox are tiny.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I will say that compared to the chasm between mormons and Catholics the differences between Catholics and Orthodox are tiny.

I agree.

As a convert to Catholicism, I see them more as differences of opinion. I know many Catholics don’t see it that way, but from the outside that is how they looked to me. The only reason I sought truth in the Roman Catholic Church, rather than Orthodox, is the Orthodox appeared to me to be more cultural or ethnic. I’m not Russian, Greek, etc. Couldn’t see how I would fit in the Orthodox churches. (At times the Roman Catholic seems Italian, culturally, to me. lol. But, that is the experience of being a convert. The culture is different from anything I ever knew previously.)

The heated arguments here between Roman Catholics and Orthodox aren’t of interest to me.

 

[KathleenGee]

As far as I am concerned and live out, the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church is one. We are separated by cultural, geographic, political realities…but the faith in essence is the same. There are parts, again…filoque, details of Mary’s assumption into heaven…that I leave to God…and His mystery. These details of differences are actually meaningless - to me.

I look at the big picture…the only perfect act we can do as Christians is in the recitation of our Catholic universal faith found in the Nicene Creed. Our faith in Christ through His grace is what saves us. So, we profess the same faith.

This morning I got this idea that I need to recall the Holocaust as well, more to my heart, for all the Orthodox who died in Islamization, Naziism, and Communism…millions upon millions of Christians down through the ages. We must remember them better in prayers and at Mass.

John Paul II said both Latin and Orthodox are as two lungs, and can learn from – each other. So in that papal remark…it is good enough for me, considering his own sanctity…that is my value and direction.

That was the pope doing his job—the living revelation of Christ affirming our basic call is to communion with the Holy Spirit and in faith as Church.

We are one, just different small ‘t’ ecclesial traditions, but we believe in the the apostolic witness as our foundation, the Creed, the basic of worship, and hierarchy. I simply wish the Orthodox accept again the role of Peter and his work for unity as one. I already recognize the Orthodox Church as apostolic.

 

[Mystophilus]

Your comment was made within the context of the Eucharist and the verses you chose were specifically citing sacrifices that were not pleasing to God. You spoke of a community that shares a store bought bun and soda pop at communion with the comment that they are very sincere. Your conclusion is that God doesn’t really care if we are consuming the true body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus or if we just share a snack and remember him, as long as one is sincere. Sorry, I just disagree with that line of thinking. The Eucharist cannot be reduced to only a ritual. It is the source and summit of the Christian faith.

No.

“I very much doubt that God is as concerned about ritual form as about our reasons” ≠ “God doesn’t really care”.

 

[KathleenGee]

Ritual is the expression of what we believe together and affirm.

What is essential is that we conform to the will of God. And Jesus fulfilled the Father’s will in worship…stating the Memorial as the fulfillment of worship as set down by God in the Old Testament in the Book of Exodus.

The new mantra by prosperity gospel people is that religion destroys faith in God.

 

[SteveVH]

No.

“I very much doubt that God is as concerned about ritual form as about our reasons” ≠ “God doesn’t really care”.

Then what does it mean? Does it mean that God is slightly concerned, or moderately concerned or very much concerned? Ritual form exists for a reason and is an expression of our interior disposition. It has eternal meaning. Our gestures; sitting, standing, kneeling, crossing ourselves… all have a meaningful purpose. Every movement and every word uttered by the priest is vitally important and has existed throughout the history of the Church. Our liturgy is ancient and beautiful. The Eastern Churches have extraordinarily beautiful liturgies as well. It was not unitl the last 500 years that Christians began meeting together without a liturgy, possibly because the authority to consecrate had been lost. Many denominations today have no idea what liturgy even means.

Can one go through the ritual form without the proper interior disposition, without good “reasons”? Absolutely. God knows what is in each of our hearts. But that does not mean that ritual is bad, but rather those participating in that ritual are lacking spiritually. I’m sure that we can find a few of those in both of our faith communities.

The Catholic focus is on the word of God and the Eucharist. We get maybe 15 minutes of preaching. The rest of the time is spent in worship, culminating in receiving the true body and blood of our Lord. We use different postures in our worship, but the point is we worship with our minds, hearts and bodies; our entire person. We do this as one body of believers, the mystical Body of Christ, so it is important that what we do, we do together. So ritual has a sacred purpose and has for 2000 years.

 

[KathleenGee]

The liturgy’s parts as we know them have been in effect since 100 AD, and finally written about 55 years later by St. Justin the Martyr.

Rituals go beyond text to spirit, movement, time, space, belief and the sign of public unity…

Rituals are both divine and human.

When we go to Mass, we are literally walking into the space and the eternal time of God, we are leaving this world and entering another. We are standing in one spot at Mass, but the Holy Spirit is carrying the Church forward into union with God.

Catholic/Orthodox liturgy of the universal church brings us into communion with the Holy Trinity, and the Latin rite includes the place of Peter.

You cannot compare symbolic ritual with a real and concrete experience with God where He is physically present to us.

 

[SteveVH]

You cannot compare symbolic ritual with a real and concrete experience with God where He is physically present to us.

Amen, Kathleen. My priest spoke this morning on the real presence. He compared the Eucharist, the real presence of Christ, with those who perceive communion as a symbolic gesture. In this comparison he gave the analogy of two people in love. When they embrace and kiss, they are communicating their real selves to each other in a way that other forms cannot compare. Words cannot capture what is communicated in a real touch. When we receive the Eucharist we recieve all of Christ in a most intimate way. He actually becomes a part of our being, body and soul, and we become a part of his. Compare embracing and kissing your beloved with receiving a phone call from them, or a letter. Its nice to hear from them but it is nowhere near the real experience of being in their arms. So, a Protestant, symbolic communion, may have some graces associated with it, but it is like kissing your beloved through a screen rather than experiencing real intimacy.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Steve…and thanks for your posts as well.

Symbolizing that which is intended to real and concrete, is what destroys faith and reduces everything to one’s individual perception.