Mormon missionaries coming to my home!

[Malachi4U]

I ordered a BOM online last week and some LDS missionaries called and will deliver their BOM to me on Monday October 31st. What can I expect from them? What should I prepare for? What will be their pitch and what do I use to prove them wrong?

I look foward to seeing them and helping to share Gods Word with them. Maybe they will loose a few scales off their eyes?

JMJ

 

[arieh0310]

Mormon missionaries always come in pairs, so invite along someone knowledgable about yours and their faith. Maybe even go to a couple of ex-LDS websites and print up some point sheets.

Utah Lighthouse Minstries

ex-mormon.org

 

[Tmaque]

Malachi4U:

I ordered a BOM online last week and some LDS missionaries called and will deliver their BOM to me on Monday October 31st. What can I expect from them? What should I prepare for? What will be their pitch and what do I use to prove them wrong?

I look foward to seeing them and helping to share Gods Word with them. Maybe they will loose a few scales off their eyes?

JMJ

I would ask them why the modern BOM has changed so much from the original. They probably aren’t even aware that it has been changed at all. For a book that was supposedly translated letter by letter the changes are really indefensible. Especially, if the book really was from God. It’s too bad you don’t have a copy of the 1830 version. Here’s a link I found which lists some of the more dramatic changes:
saintsalive.com/mormonism/bomchanges.htm

 

[edmondhall]

Well, the organization and zeal deserves credit–I wish that everytime someone purchased a Catechism, a parishoners came calling.

I’ve only had brief contact with the ‘missionaries’ and, frankly, they seemed surprised that I challenged them on their beliefs. They probably ususally get an open ear or, more often, a terse ‘thanks but no thanks’.

edit–when I say ‘challenge’ I don’t mean to imply untowardness–I just mean that I forthrightly questioned them about the ‘great apostasy’.

 

[Malachi4U]

I don’t think there are many Catholics who’d spend 2 weeks of their vacation once in their lifetime delivering Catechisms let alone 1 year. The LDS kids - I mean missionaries - must be respected for their desire to serve one of thier gods in hope of becoming a god of their own planet.

So, are Mormons assured of salvation or is that just Protestants like Baptists etc.? Would OSAS guarantee a planet? Which one, celestial, teresatial, telestial? Is suicide OK for Mormons to get to become a god of their own planet like Joe Smith declared?

 

[Fiat_Lux]

You can respect them, or you can feel sorry for them. (Or both, I suppose). There are allegations that missionary training involves intensive programming. If you do a search, you’ll find plenty of personal horror stories relating to mistreatment and brainwashing tactics.

A good place for Mormon-Catholic comparative information is comparing-views.com.

 

[Casen]

Fiat Lux:

You can respect them, or you can feel sorry for them. (Or both, I suppose). There are allegations that missionary training involves intensive programming. If you do a search, you’ll find plenty of personal horror stories relating to mistreatment and brainwashing tactics.

As a former LDS missionary I can tell you that is just plain silly. The same ridiculous brain washing horror stories have been leveled against Catholics and other religious groups for centuries.

Do you believe everything you read on the internet???

If I stumbled across an anti-Catholic website that claimed Catholics worship Satan I certainly wouldn’t be so nieve as to believe it and come here and say, “there are allegations of Catholic devil worshiping.” Would that be fair? Should you be spreading such rumors here with nothing to back them up?

 

[jdavidparrott]

These guys’ teachings are strange at best. They will not go right into the weird stuff. They will talk about warm fuzzys first and then use what I call a “Jack Chick” approach. That is, they will use a logic that if you agree “A” is right and “B” is right then you must agree that our “C” is right even though you have never thought about it before.

They will teach you that Jesus & Satan are equal and that any man can become a god as long as he is a morman. After that it gets REALLY weird!

 

[Lorarose]

I had a visit a couple of years ago.
Two young boys - about 19 to 23 yrs.old.
One appeared to be mentoring the other.

They concentrated on the “great apostasy” once they realized I was catholic.

I challenged them on that and gave them the newadvent website with early church fathers writings ( I asked them “have you read the writings of Ignatius? Polycarp? Irenaeus?..etc.” - they said no they hadn’t)

I knew there would be no converting THEM - but it was my intention to plant seeds - maybe they would have questions and do research on their own.

They tried to give me the bizarre story of America’s “history” and the lost tribe of Israel.
I told them there isn’t one whit of archeological evidence to support this. He seemed to think American Indians were long lost jews…modern geneticists have debunked this of course.

I came right out and said their religion stands or falls on Joseph Smith and that I rejected Joseph’s message.
I rely on the message of Jesus Christ.

 

[Tmaque]

Casen:

As a former LDS missionary I can tell you that is just plain silly. The same ridiculous brain washing horror stories have been leveled against Catholics and other religious groups for centuries.

Do you believe everything you read on the internet???

If I stumbled across an anti-Catholic website that claimed Catholics worship Satan I certainly wouldn’t be so nieve as to believe it and come here and say, “there are allegations of Catholic devil worshiping.” Would that be fair? Should you be spreading such rumors here with nothing to back them up?

As a former LDS missionary who is now Catholic, I must say I agree with this post 100%.

 

[Fiat_Lux]

Casen:

As a former LDS missionary I can tell you that is just plain silly. The same ridiculous brain washing horror stories have been leveled against Catholics and other religious groups for centuries.

Do you believe everything you read on the internet???

If I stumbled across an anti-Catholic website that claimed Catholics worship Satan I certainly wouldn’t be so nieve as to believe it and come here and say, “there are allegations of Catholic devil worshiping.” Would that be fair? Should you be spreading such rumors here with nothing to back them up?

It would only be “silly” if there were no such thing as brainwashing. But, we know that it exists, and we know that it happens every day. That there are allegations is not a “rumor”, it is a fact.

I don’t believe everything I read on the internet, and I didn’t state whether I believe this or not. I am not sure yet whether I believe it, but it’s something that bears investigation. It is relevant to the question of why missionaries devote 2 years of their lives to missionary service. Todd is actually the first ex-mormon, former missionary I have come across who didn’t feel he was subject to brainwashing to some degree during missionary training.

Allegations about the Catholic church don’t bother me. I’ve heard and evaluated plenty of them. I have yet to hear a criticism of the Catholic Church that can’t be satisfactorily examined and evaluated in the light of day.

At any rate, I am sorry if I offended you.

 

[majick275]

Malachi4U:

I don’t think there are many Catholics who’d spend 2 weeks of their vacation once in their lifetime delivering Catechisms let alone 1 year. The LDS kids - I mean missionaries - must be respected for their desire to serve one of thier gods in hope of becoming a god of their own planet.

So, are Mormons assured of salvation or is that just Protestants like Baptists etc.? Would OSAS guarantee a planet? Which one, celestial, teresatial, telestial? Is suicide OK for Mormons to get to become a god of their own planet like Joe Smith declared?

Mormons are about as opposite of OSAS as you can get. They live in constant danger of not “enduring to the end”…UNLESS they have their calling and election made sure, then they’re good to go. Oh and if you interpret D&C 132 literally then those who have been “sealed” in the Temple are celestial good as long as they don’t murder anyone… otherwise no planet if they are not “valiant” cuz they only get telestial glory. Suicide is bad for LDS, no authoratative doctrine on how bad but certainly bad.

 

[flameburns623]

Fiat Lux:

It would only be “silly” if there were no such thing as brainwashing. But, we know that it exists, and we know that it happens every day. That there are allegations is not a “rumor”, it is a fact.

“We” do not know that “brainwashing” exists. “We” certainly do not “know” that it “happens every day”. Brainwashing is a pejorative and inflamatory term thrown around by partisans religious debate, in an effort to close off discussion and smear the opposition. It simply does not exist in the sense that the term is popularly thrown around. See the following link to a CENSUR (primarily Roman Catholic academic symposium) on the topic:

cesnur.org/testi/se_brainwash.htm

A few worthwile quotes from the homepage of this group:
CENSUR:

In the 1990s it became apparent that inaccurate information was being disseminated to the media and the public powers by activists associated with the international anti-cult movement. Some new religious movements also disseminated unreliable or partisan information . . . .

. . . Methodologically, it is clear that these reports rely primarily on sources supplied by the international anti-cult movement, and accept uncritically the brainwashing or mind control model of conversion, a model unanimously rejected by mainline sociological and psychological science.

And in reference to your quote:
Fiat Lux:

Todd is actually the first ex-mormon, former missionary I have come across who didn’t feel he was subject to brainwashing to some degree during missionary training.

I would not the following:
CENSUR:

Experiences of disgruntled ex-members should certainly not be ignored, but they could not become the only narratives used to build our knowledge of a group.

 

[flameburns623]

Malachi4U:

I ordered a BOM online last week and some LDS missionaries called and will deliver their BOM to me on Monday October 31st. What can I expect from them? What should I prepare for? What will be their pitch and what do I use to prove them wrong?

I look foward to seeing them and helping to share Gods Word with them. Maybe they will loose a few scales off their eyes?

JMJ

I’m sure you have already seen my booklist and if not–do a search on all of my posts and it will come up fairly quickly. You won’t have time to do a lot of reading however.

I have said repeatedly that IMHO one should NOT rely upon ‘anti’ sites for primary information about any religious belief system. Rather, one should learn as much as one can about a religious tradition from sources it’s own adherents trust and use. In engaging such groups in dialogue, one is best advised to study one’s OWN faith tradition more thoroughly and be prepared to articulate one’s own beliefs clearly and succinctly, with reason and evidence. This takes considerable practice.

I will say that the LDS Church is less than fully forthcoming about unsavory aspects of it’s own history, less than fully clear about what it really teaches on certain ‘difficult’ doctrinal positions. They often seem wont to use very Christian-sounding language and not make clear that they re-interpret that language. They try with converts of strongly-Christian heritage to sound as much like orthodox Christian Evangelicals with a perhaps a few unique ‘quirks’ as they can. Only gradually, and usually only after already having joined the LDS Church and established close relationships with members, does one gradually see how different LDS theology really is from orthodox Christian theology.

I suspect that the LDS themselves will want to say that I am simply describing the normal ‘learning curve’ of accept any new set of ideas. I do realise that it takes time to assimilate knowledge and that one’s understanding of the Trinity (for example) at one point might actually be rather faulty and require refinement. I really think something more is going on in respect to LDS catechesis. The Mormon Church produces books intended for converts to read about the history of the LDS Church which gloss over such issues as polygamy in the Mormon Church. I’m not saying that they Church totally avoids this issue in all of it’s published materials–I am suggesting that the materials most available to Investigators and new converts make little or no mention of such issues and leave it to the prospect to discover these issues on their own.

Even the LDS missionaries you are about to meet with may have few answers for tough questions. And, once it is clear that you are not sincerely interested, they will likely cut the conversation short and leave. If you really want to read something useful by an anti-Mormon, try to get ahold of “Reasoning from the Scriptures with Mormons” by Ron Rhodes. Sorry that this is from an Evangelical perspective and presupposes Sola Scriptura–but it is reasonably fair-minded and it will have plenty of readily-at-hand ideas you can try to weave into your conversation. Good luck and God bless!

 

[PaulDupre]

Fiat Lux:

Todd is actually the first ex-mormon, former missionary I have come across who didn’t feel he was subject to brainwashing to some degree during missionary training.

I am also an ex-Mormon, former missionary. I do not feel that I was subject to “brainwashing” in the LTM (as it was known back then).

I think the problem here is with the term “brainwashing”. We spoiled children of the 21st century have come to use that term very loosely.

What went on in the LTM when I was there (Spring of 1977) was the same kind of intense “re-orientation” that they do in the armed forces (according to my son and son-in-law - both US Marines).

When we new mssionaries got to the LTM, we were kept from going to bed, so that by the time we were allowed to retire, we had been awake for about 48 hours. It was like a 30-hour fast-and-testimony meeting. By the time we were finally allowed to retire, we were dazed and confused. When we got up the next morning, we all felt “oriented” to the LTM.

After that, they kept us very busy with learning our target languages, exercising and having church meetings.

The food was surprisingly good.

We could never be alone, even (especially) in the bathroom or the shower. When we were in either of those places, we were expected to keep a steady conversation going with our companions, in order to avoid “bad thoughts”.

We never went outside the LTM until week 6, when they took us to the Provo temple to take out our endowments. The following week, each district was allowed to go into town and do some shopping (all under the watchful eye of a “priesthood leader”). A week later, I was on a plane for Taiwan.

If you want to call that brainwashing, that is your prerogative. I didn’t like the process at all, but I don’t believe it rises to the level of brainwashing.

Paul

 

[Tmaque]

Fiat Lux:

It is relevant to the question of why missionaries devote 2 years of their lives to missionary service. Todd is actually the first ex-mormon, former missionary I have come across who didn’t feel he was subject to brainwashing to some degree during missionary training.

LDS culture is a service culture. Every active LDS adult has one or more “callings” at a given time, meaning, they are “called” to teach Sunday School for instance, or be an Elder’s Quorum president, be a home teacher, etc. For a 19 year old LDS man, serving a two year mission, is just a natural thing to do in such a culture of service. There are very few “pew-sitters” in the active LDS culture. I think it is an admirable thing and I only wish Catholics were as devoted to the service of their Church and faith as LDS are. I can understand how this LDS focus on service would seem strange to a cradle Catholic. It is evidence of true commitment to their faith and is one of the primary reasons that they percieve many committed Catholics as luke warm.

Your comment on brainwashing during missionary training is utterly and totally wrong. I spent two months in the Missionary Training Center. The vast majority of my time there was spent learning Korean. The only real religious instruction we recieved there was in the form of occasional devotional talks and familiarizing ourselves with the “discussions”, which were simply the missionary lesson plan. I don’t know who told you that LDS missionaries are brainwashed but it is absolutely baseless.

 

[Fiat_Lux]

PaulDupre:

I think the problem here is with the term “brainwashing”.

I think you are right.

I would also have said that brainwashing occurs in the military, had that been the topic at hand.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[Tmaque]

PaulDupre:

I am also an ex-Mormon, former missionary. I do not feel that I was subject to “brainwashing” in the LTM (as it was known back then).

I think the problem here is with the term “brainwashing”. We spoiled children of the 21st century have come to use that term very loosely.

What went on in the LTM when I was there (Spring of 1977) was the same kind of intense “re-orientation” that they do in the armed forces (according to my son and son-in-law - both US Marines).

When we new mssionaries got to the LTM, we were kept from going to bed, so that by the time we were allowed to retire, we had been awake for about 48 hours. It was like a 30-hour fast-and-testimony meeting. By the time we were finally allowed to retire, we were dazed and confused. When we got up the next morning, we all felt “oriented” to the LTM.

After that, they kept us very busy with learning our target languages, exercising and having church meetings.

The food was surprisingly good.

We could never be alone, even (especially) in the bathroom or the shower. When we were in either of those places, we were expected to keep a steady conversation going with our companions, in order to avoid “bad thoughts”.

We never went outside the LTM until week 6, when they took us to the Provo temple to take out our endowments. The following week, each district was allowed to go into town and do some shopping (all under the watchful eye of a “priesthood leader”). A week later, I was on a plane for Taiwan.

If you want to call that brainwashing, that is your prerogative. I didn’t like the process at all, but I don’t believe it rises to the level of brainwashing.

Paul

Paul,
I went through the “MTC” in 1982. There was absolutely no “re-orientation” as you described it. They must changed the rules a bit by the time I got there. We did have a “companion”, but we were allowed to be alone to shower and use the bathroom. We had a strict schedule ,and we were kept very busy, but we had a lot to accomplish in two months. In general, It was an enjoyable experience for me. And you’re right. the food was excellent!

 

[Casen]

PaulDupre:

I am also an ex-Mormon, former missionary. I do not feel that I was subject to “brainwashing” in the LTM (as it was known back then).

I think the problem here is with the term “brainwashing”. We spoiled children of the 21st century have come to use that term very loosely.

What went on in the LTM when I was there (Spring of 1977) was the same kind of intense “re-orientation” that they do in the armed forces (according to my son and son-in-law - both US Marines).

When we new mssionaries got to the LTM, we were kept from going to bed, so that by the time we were allowed to retire, we had been awake for about 48 hours. It was like a 30-hour fast-and-testimony meeting. By the time we were finally allowed to retire, we were dazed and confused. When we got up the next morning, we all felt “oriented” to the LTM.

After that, they kept us very busy with learning our target languages, exercising and having church meetings.

The food was surprisingly good.

We could never be alone, even (especially) in the bathroom or the shower. When we were in either of those places, we were expected to keep a steady conversation going with our companions, in order to avoid “bad thoughts”.

We never went outside the LTM until week 6, when they took us to the Provo temple to take out our endowments. The following week, each district was allowed to go into town and do some shopping (all under the watchful eye of a “priesthood leader”). A week later, I was on a plane for Taiwan.

If you want to call that brainwashing, that is your prerogative. I didn’t like the process at all, but I don’t believe it rises to the level of brainwashing.
Paul

I was in the MTC for two months in 1991 and didn’t experience the “reorientation” you’re talking about either. We were kept very busy but we certainly were allowed to be alone in the bathroom! We also weren’t deprived of sleep although I would occasionally doze off after a full day of Spanish lessons. We spent most of each day studying our assigned foreign language but also spent considerable time studying the scriptures and got an hour of physical exercise in each day. I thought the food was pretty good also. There certainly wasn’t any brainwashing or anything even close to that and I enjoyed my time there as well as the 22 months I spent in Chile teaching the gospel and developed many lasting friendships.

I was in the MTC for two months in 1991 and didn’t experience the “reorientation” you’re talking about either. We were kept very busy but we certainly were allowed to be alone in the bathroom! We also weren’t deprived of sleep although I would occasionally doze off after a full day of Spanish lessons. We spent most of each day studying our assigned foreign language but also spent considerable time studying the scriptures and got an hour of physical exercise in each day. I thought the food was pretty good also. There certainly wasn’t any brainwashing or anything even close to that and I enjoyed my time there as well as the 22 months I spent in Chile teaching the gospel and developed many lasting friendships.

It bothers me when someone assumes those in their church are sincere but those in another faith must be brainwashed (I admit that attitude exists in my own church also). I personally believe most people are sincere in their religious beliefs and try to follow their conscious based on their experience and perceptions of reality, including those with beliefs I don’t agree with.

 

[PaulDupre]

I guess between 1977 and 1991, things had changed as much in the MTC as they had in the temple.

No “orientation”, no “Protestant Minister”, no throat slitting and disembowelment. Jeez, you kids are soft.
Paul