Mormon missionaries coming to my home!

[Malachi4U]

Zooey:

…I will agree, the Mormons are really nice…As much as I don’t agree with them, I will give them high grades for manners & demeanor…

JMJ

Have you ever seen the Baptist “Street Preachers” that go up to Temple Square in Salt Lake City and elsewhere? What about Westboro Baptist Church and their “Protesting” (or is that ““RE”-forming” ). How sad, some whom “CLAIM” to be Christian act in any way but Christian. You’d never see a missionary calling your wife a “tramp” or “$#ore” in front of your children but the Baptists sure will.

When I deal with all souls, even misguided ones like the LDS, I treat them as Jesus told us to. “What so ever you do to the least of My children, that you do unto Me!” If only the Baptists read/memorized that verse - and lived it - what a wonderful group they might be.

 

[EsclavoDeCristo]

Malachi4U:

UPDATE:

…Overall they were very nice and polite. I wish Christian missionaries like the Baptist street preachers (in Salt Lake), Westboro Baptist church (Kansas), Jack Chick, etc. were as kind as the Mormons. Christains could learn a valuable lesson from the Mormons in proper Christian conduct. But that’s another topic…

I JMJ

We could learn a lot about evangelization and investing the lives of people as well…

 

[Malachi4U]

JMJ

The “elders” finally came back to my home today for their 2nd visit. Nearly 3 months after the first one. Of course, it was two new “elders”, the other ones have transferred out already. They said they transfer every 4-5 months. That’s “Good News” though so I can order a BOM every 6 months to witness to new “elders”. You can too!

They were late of course. They skipped out on two previous meetings already. It was raining earlier but they still drove their bikes over. They get an ATA BOY for that dedication. I wish we Catholics all showed that kind of dedication to GOD and spreading His Word.

They wanted to show me a movie but I asked a ‘few’ questions before they showed the movie on Joe. Two hours later they left and I still never saw the movie. Hopefully they will come back so I can see it.

They obviously train well in answering questions. Whenever I stumped them on issues like abortion they responded, “The church teaches what is true but its members are free to choose what they want.” This is a great reply. I upset one of them and he nearly became violent and yelled when I said the Mormons have one of the highest rates of divorce in the US. He said it was a lie by those who hate his church. Of course I told him it was a government statistic and he all but called me a liar. Needless to say, the other one, the polite one, did most of the talking and he was the elder “elder”.

I stumped them again when I asked if Joe used the 73 book AKJV (by modern names) or the 66 book abridged and edited and incomplete KJV. They never knew the KJV had that many books. I then gave them some Bible history on all the Bibles and where they came from.

They tap danced around the issue of abortion. I told them how the Catholic Church teaches against it and how their church just says pray and do whatever you like.

I told them how the Bible says to rely not on emotions but, they just could not accept that one and kept claiming, “If it feels right, it is the Holy ‘Ghost’ telling you what to do.” So when I said I don’t pray about killing, or rape, or stealing, etc. just because it feels good they had no place to go but blow smoke.

Apostasy, this was the long topic. I asked them “WHICH” Mormon church they were with. They were shocked because they weren’t expecting this one. I told them how the RLDS church said they were in apostasy. I told them how Joe picked his son as the next prophet and Joe’s son and wife stayed behind when the “traitors and turncoats” left in apostasy for Salt Lake City. The then cut down the RLDS with a passion. They said the RLDS are bankrupt, financially and morally, and that they combined with the Church of Christ just to survive. We didn’t talk much about the other 165 largest Mormon sects in apostasy.

I mentioned that the Mormon church was like a business and was rich. The short tempered “elder” erupted and gave a lecture about how the church only owned 3 charities like Desert etc. and used ALL the money to help the poor. They said the church owned “NO business’ other then charity”. I mentioned the church had Coke stock and half the Vegas casinos, etc… How owning stock in a public company is the same as ownership. They never responded well here. I also asked why the church didn’t sell the stock in business’ that were wrong. No response here except denial.

I asked why the church owned “stock” in companies like Coke and Casinos" when these companies went against what the church teaches. They just gave stock answers.

When they left after nearly two hours the talkative and polite one commented, “You are very knowledgeable on many topics. I will have to go and “pray” about those and ask my superiors how I can answer some of these things.”

I did make a mistake myself. I dug a hole I did not mean to. I said something about the 5 Patriarchs in the Catholic Church and how all 5 are valid as ONE Catholic Church. They then asked how each could have different doctrines and teachings and still claim not to be in apostasy. How the Catholic Churches could contradict each other and still claim to be valid. I admit it, I did not answer them well. I’ll study more on our “branches” before I bring that one up again. I cut them down for 167 sects and then brag about my 5 Patriarchs in ONE church. I’ll bone up on that one and learn how to explain it better.

A prisoner of Christ,

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Most of the BOM is actually taken from the KJV. (the bom supposedly took place in the OT days, so it’s odd they were quoting from the KJV.) There have also been changes to historically inaccurate contents since the original 1830 editions.

2 Nephi 24 is actually Isaiah 14, copied almost word for word.

 

[Malachi4U]

I forgot to say this too. The ‘elders’ said that the reason Mormon ‘bishops’ make news headlines for sex abuse cases? Because we as a society think so highly of them and hold them up as role models. If not for the high standards we expect for their bishops their sexual abuse would not make front page news. If this is true then I guess Catholic clergy is held in even higher regard by Americans!

The ‘elders’ also said the reason their company, I mean business, oops I mean church does not release its financial statements is to prevent people from suing their church falsely for sex abuse cases. I guess we are all too stupid to think the LDS church has any money unless they release a financial statement? So if you “HIDE” your wealth you won’t get sued! Now that’s a Christian thing to do? Could they hide it so they don’t get taxed as a for profit business?

I went and researched all the companies the Mormon church owns or is heavily invested in and how it hides its holdings. It is mind boggling! They own so much they may control our markets in a few generations. Holding companies galore.

What does the Bible say about a business as a church?

JMJ

 

[mormon_fool]

M4U,

I am glad you are doing research so as to be more prepared next time you invite the LDS missionaries over to share a message with you. Let me offer a few suggestions for further research.

• Make sure you have the source for where you got your information from on hand. It is easy for missionaries to get the impression that unsubstantiated misinformation has been uncritically accepted and is being propagated when no supporting documents exist or are inaccessible.
• It would be a good idea for you to update yourself on divorce statistics. Google is your friend here! According to Gallup and BARNA, LDS are lower than the Christian average and are at the national average. Catholics beat it by 3%. Congratulations!
• To help you with your research on current LDS for-profit-companies (which are duly taxed), check out this site for all of them.
• The rumor that LDS church has stock in Coke (or Pepsi) is so famous that even Snopes has debunked it. Likewise the Vegas claim has never been substantiated.
• Since you expressed interest in LDS charities a good place to start your research is at the LDS website, which doesn’t even come close to making a complete list of church and parachurch charities.
• Newspaper accounts involving LDS Bishops and sex abuse are nearly always over whether abuse was correctly reported by the Bishop, and not over whether it was actually commited by the Bishop. See the LDS church’s recently released statement here.

With these pointers, I hope your next discussion with LDS missionaries will generate more heat than light. I always enjoy it more when someone discusses the positive aspects of their faith instead of looking for negativity in others.

Later,
fool

 

[Casen]

Chris LaRock:

Most of the BOM is actually taken from the KJV. (the bom supposedly took place in the OT days, so it’s odd they were quoting from the KJV.)

This is a huge exaggeration. I haven’t been posting much lately but I just couldn’t let this blatant falsehood remain unchallenged. There are indeed a few chapters where Nephi copied passages from Jewish scriptures that he took with him and there are some quotes from Jesus in the BOM that correspond with the Sermon on the Mount but 90% of the BOM is original text. How anyone that has actually read the BOM could make this claim with a straight face is beyond me.

Regarding the Old Testament quotes, there are indeed differences between the BOM version and the King James translation. Interestingly, many of the BOM differences correspond to the Septuagint (abbreviated LXX), which was translated about 285 B.C. into Greek for Jews living in Alexandria, Egypt and later used by the Apostles. The Septuagint is considered my modern scholars to be flawed in many cases but there are some verses that remain in their pure form that have been lost in other manuscripts.

A few examples:

2 Nephi 12:16
And upon all the ships of the sea and upon all the ships of Tarshish
LXX
And upon every ship of the sea and upon every display of fine ships
KJV
And upon all the ships of Tarshish

Nephi 19:7
There is no end
LXX
There is no end
KJV
There shall be no end

1 Nephi 21:7
nations
LXX
nations
Isaiah 49:7
nation

3 Nephi 24:5
the stranger and fear not me
LXX
The stranger and fear not me
Malachi 3:5
The stranger from his right and fear not me

There are many more examples but I’m getting tired of typing. The point is that the relatively few portions of the BOM that correspond with the Old and New Testament are NOT merely copies of the KJ Bible

 

[Malachi4U]

fool,

Thanks for the links. I am continueing to refine my research and update my information. I am also continuing to find sources for good and honest information. There is so much anti-Mormon hate out there that sometime the data is skewed.

Unfortunately, these ‘elders’ are much like the Jehovah Witnesses I deal with. They only use their evidence and just refuse to recognize mine. They won’t look at it or read it.

They remind me of a person holding up a weight scale with one pan and one eye blindfolded. They just toss anything they want in the trash and any thing they want to use as evidence they put in the pan. Thus the pan always falls in their favor since it is a scale with one pan only. Not very fair.

Anyway, just today I researched the ‘true’ and valid Mormon church, the Comunity of Christ. Their story does seem to be best and they do appear to be the only Mormon sect not in apostasy.

I am still researching though and have a long way to go. The good news for me is that I am useing a weight scale with ‘two’ pans and ALL evidence is going onto them.

 

[Malachi4U]

ps fool,

I found all your links earlier. Do have other links that are not from LDS sources? I am trying to find data not tainted by the bias of the LDS church or the bias of the anti-Mormons?

Thanks for any help.

PPS, Do the CoC’s have missionaries too that will come by my home? They seem like the true Mormon church and I would like to visit with them.

 

[mormon_fool]

M4U,

The best materials on LDS church finances are found in the library and in scholarly publications. As you know, internet sites usually have an agenda one way or another. Everyone has a bias of some sort, but some authors do their best to bracket out LDS truth claims.

So if you can get to a library or get book loans the best sources on LDS finances are:

**The **Kirtland Economy Revisited: A Market Critique of Sectarian Economics Marvin S.Hill, Keith C. Rooker and Larry T. Wimmer . BYU Studies 17:4
notes: The Kirtland period was the first attempt to extablish LDS church and community finances in the 1830’s.
**
The Great Basin Kingdom by Leonard J. Arrington
notes: Arrington is a highly respected LDS historian in LDS and non-LDS academic circles alike. This is a treatment of 19th century Utah economics. See also Arrington’s article in the EoM. and in BYU Studies 3:3.
**
David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism by Prince and Wright
notes: The 2005 biography of a President of the LDS church during the 50’s and 70’s. It has several chapters on church finances on real estate, church and temple building, communication and media, and education.

Lengthen Your Stride: The Presidency of Spencer W. Kimball by Edward L. Kimball
notes: 2005 bio of the Spencer Kimball with a couple of chapters covering finances and welfare during parts of the 70’s and 80’s.

The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power by D. Michael Quinn
notes: Quinn is an ex-LDS critic. The online finance chapter in this book is not all that bad, and surveys the landscape up through the 80’s.

Miscellaneous:

Ford Motor Company put out some quick facts about LDS charites, humanitarian efforts, and statistics in 2001.

BARNA, an independent research agency conducts religous surveys.

I don’t know how you can get a hold of CoC missionaries. When I was on my mission in OK, the only CoC church I found about was in Seminole. BTW, the educated CoC on another message board don’t consider themselves “the true church” and are embarrassed for those in their organization that do.

–fool

 

[mormon_fool]

oops, double post
–fool

 

[Malachi4U]

Thanks fool,

From just a quick glance, those look like links I have not yet been to. I will check them out shortly.

If anyone else has any non-BIAS links too I would like to see them.

JMJ

(Hum? Is BYU bias? )

 

[Malachi4U]

PS, What companies are the Prophets and Apostles made presidents of when they get to those positions in the LDS church? I have heard that the top LDS ‘clergy’ are the highest paid in the world? What companies do they head for the church?

Why are only business men selected for those positions anymore? Very rich men too I might add before they get into those positions? What does the church pay them? Why? What is true and what is hate based reformation of facts?

 

[majick275]

Just to be accurate, the practice of appointing LDS general authorities to corporate boards of church owned companies was discontinued. I THINK it was Gordon B. Hinckley that directed that but am unsure. They do receive a compensation package from the curch itself but no one knows just what that is since they don’t release financial reports that would provide that information.

I think Michael Quinns books “The Mormon Heirarchy: Origins of power” and it’s sequel “extensions of power” are both informative. Quinn is obviously influenced by Mormon beliefs but appears very objective as a historian.

Richard Bushman’s books “rough stone rolling”, “believing history” and “Joseph Smithand the beginings of Mormonism” are okay.
He is somewhat of an apologist but provides well researched views that seem fairly objective.

Todd compton’s “in sacred loneliness” falls into this category as well.

I like Richard Van Wagoners works. “Sidney Rigdon: Portrait of Religious Excess” especially.

I think it of value to read the original edition of the BoM and see the changes. The original D&C is even more telling when compared to the present. The Journal of Discourses is a very good look at just what was taught in the early Utah years. (Brigham Young and John Taylor)

I don’t know that you will find ANYTHING on this that is truly unbiased but these are some LDS friendly sources that reveal enough of the truth to be of value. (at least I think so)

 

[mormon_fool]

Malachi4U:

From just a quick glance, those look like links I have not yet been to. I will check them out shortly.

Cool. The best information is in books you can’t get online though.

If anyone else has any non-BIAS links too I would like to see them.

As I have already stated, there is no such thing as non-BIAS. The best that can be offered are articles written by professional historians following professional standards (whether the scholars are LDS or not, and whether they publish in venues like BYU Studies that will attract the most readership for their studies or not) who are bracketing out LDS truth claims in their treatments. This is clearly the case in all the resources I have pointed out (in my last post).

(Hum? Is BYU bias? )

Dismissing something merely because it was published by BYU borders on ad hominem . Read the article first, then come back and tell us if they are misconstruing facts or putting on a sales job. The work of Arrington and Hill are highly respected in non-LDS circles. If you want to know the who’s who in universally trustworthy scholars dealing with Mormonism, I recommend this University of Illnois Press online book.

PS, What companies are the Prophets and Apostles made presidents of when they get to those positions in the LDS church?

see majick’s response (thanks majick). If you want to get a sense of what happened in the past, the resources I have provided are invaluable to answering the question and providing the mentality behind the LDS church’s participation in secular economic affairs. Utah was largely colonized by Brigham Young managing the community resources and it has taken awhile to for the leadership of the LDS church to divorce itself from participating in non-church related economical interests on the side. As I understand the RCC history, there was a time when it was much more active in economic and governmental activities.

I have heard that the top LDS ‘clergy’ are the highest paid in the world?

That would be an unsubstantiated rumor easily proven false. Clearly televangelists and megachurch pastors live much more extravagant lifestyles. Outside sources of income in the past would have been from these general authorities essentially working multiple jobs in addition to their clergy work.

What companies do they head for the church?

The LDS website links I initially gave largely answers this question, the church’s business interests seem to have been consolidatd under Deseret Management.

Why are only business men selected for those positions anymore?

That would be an overstatement. Here is the current rundown of occupations before being called to be an LDS authority

Gordon Hinckley: Public Relations for the LDS church
Thomas Monson: Business Management
James Faust: Lawyer
Boyd Packer: Educator
L. Tom Perry: Business Finance
Russell Nelson: Heart Surgeon
Dallin Oaks: Utah Supreme Court Justice, University President
M. Russell Ballard: Car Dealership
Joseph Wirthlin: Business Administration
Richard Scott: Nuclear Engineer
Robert Hales: Business Exec.
Jeffrey Holland: Religion Educator, University President
Henry Eyring: Physics and Business Degrees, Educator
Dieter Uchtdorff: Airline pilot and executive
David Bednar: Organization Behavior, University President

So only 8 out of 15 had a business background.

Very rich men too I might add before they get into those positions?

Which shows they are willing to sacrifice their career ambitions to serve the LDS church. I am sure authorities that were sufficiently rich in their former careers decline a living allowance from the LDS church.

What does the church pay them?

In some cases, nothing. At most a very modest living allowance.

Why?

Why not? These full-time LDS Church authorities are called by revelation and the ones called without a sufficient nest egg shouldn’t have to starve or go without neccessities. Less than 0.3 % of LDS officials are paid, which is lower than other Christian denomination that I am aware of.

Quinn: Of more than 160,000 ecclesiastical leaders at the beginning of 1996, fewer than 500 were authorized a living allowance from church funds. Many of these LDS officials decline to use their authorized allowances .

–fool

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Casen:

This is a huge exaggeration. I haven’t been posting much lately but I just couldn’t let this blatant falsehood remain unchallenged. There are indeed a few chapters where Nephi copied passages from Jewish scriptures that he took with him and there are some quotes from Jesus in the BOM that correspond with the Sermon on the Mount but 90% of the BOM is original text. How anyone that has actually read the BOM could make this claim with a straight face is beyond me.

Regarding the Old Testament quotes, there are indeed differences between the BOM version and the King James translation. Interestingly, many of the BOM differences correspond to the Septuagint (abbreviated LXX), which was translated about 285 B.C. into Greek for Jews living in Alexandria, Egypt and later used by the Apostles. The Septuagint is considered my modern scholars to be flawed in many cases but there are some verses that remain in their pure form that have been lost in other manuscripts.

A few examples:

2 Nephi 12:16
And upon all the ships of the sea and upon all the ships of Tarshish
LXX
And upon every ship of the sea and upon every display of fine ships
KJV
And upon all the ships of Tarshish

Nephi 19:7
There is no end
LXX
There is no end
KJV
There shall be no end

1 Nephi 21:7
nations
LXX
nations
Isaiah 49:7
nation

3 Nephi 24:5
the stranger and fear not me
LXX
The stranger and fear not me
Malachi 3:5
The stranger from his right and fear not me

There are many more examples but I’m getting tired of typing. The point is that the relatively few portions of the BOM that correspond with the Old and New Testament are NOT merely copies of the KJ Bible

The 1611 king james contains hundreds of translational errors. The bom contains almost word for word quotations from the flawed king james - errors and all. Most of what’s in the bom is indeed copied from the flawed King James whether you want to believe it or not. Look no further than Isaiah 14 (king james) and 2 Nephi 24.

No archeological proof exists to confirm the story told by the bom. Do your research.

 

[Malachi4U]

Thanks for the reply fool,

But… I need better sources and facts, not just opinions.

And I try to avoid the LDS church sites just like I try to avoid the hate monger sites. I prefer more neutral proof when it can be found.

 

[Paul_G]

Chris LaRock:

The 1611 king james contains hundreds of translational errors. The bom contains almost word for word quotations from the flawed king james - errors and all. Most of what’s in the bom is indeed copied from the flawed King James whether you want to believe it or not. Look no further than Isaiah 14 (king james) and 2 Nephi 24.

No archeological proof exists to confirm the story told by the bom. Do your research.

W. John Walsh points out that if Joseph Smith claimed that either the Book of Mormon or the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible (JST) were perfect and free from all error, then errors in the King James text that are perpetuated in the new scriptures as well might case doubt on the prophet’s work. However, Joseph Smith never made this claim. Instead, the Prophet held the view that the new scriptures corrected some of the mistakes in the original Biblical texts. Furthermore, he specifically stated that he did not correct everything that he could have corrected in the translation process. For example, in the Doctrine and Covenants, a letter from Joseph Smith to the Saints quotes from the Old Testament:
"And again, in connection with this quotation I will give you a quotation from one of the prophets, who had his eye fixed on the restoration of the priesthood, the glories to be revealed in the last days, and in an especial manner this most glorious of all subjects belonging to the everlasting gospel, namely, the baptism for the dead; for Malachi says, last chapter, verses 5th and 6th: Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. I might have rendered a plainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands......" (D&C 128:17-18, emphasis added)

 

[Malachi4U]

Paul,

Good answer.

Have you ever been to Utah Lighthouse Ministries or to Alpha Omega Ministries? Would you classify them as fair and honest or bias? Unfair and unhonest?

Could you go to these sites and give examples of how they missled or strayed from turth?

AOM is bias and unfair from what I’ve seen. I would almost say James downright missleads people on purpose?

 

[Casen]

Chris LaRock:

The 1611 king james contains hundreds of translational errors. The bom contains almost word for word quotations from the flawed king james - errors and all. Most of what’s in the bom is indeed copied from the flawed King James whether you want to believe it or not. Look no further than Isaiah 14 (king james) and 2 Nephi 24.

No archeological proof exists to confirm the story told by the bom. Do your research.

Seriously Chris, have you even read the Book of Mormon???

Be honest.