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brgregmack
Guest
On Monday, I will be dialoguing with a couple Mormons, one of whom is a former Catholic. I need some strategy help on how to bypass their memorized speech and get them thinking.
Thanks
Thanks
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Cat_Herder
Guest
Debunk the “great apostasy.” Here’s now.
From 33 AD to 1005 AD, that is from Calvary until the Great Schism, 100% of Christianity was capital-C Catholic (99%) or Oriental Orthodox (1%). From the Schism to the Reformation–another 500 years–100% of Christianity was either part of the aforesaid communions or the Eastern Orthodox. There are no other Christians until the 1500s AD.
ALL non-Catholic and non-Orthodox churches reject the authority of both the Catholic and Orthodox churches and all of their Tradition, as do the Mormons.
So the only way you can argue the Reformers or anyone who came after them (e.g. Joseph Smith) were right, is to declare that 100% of Christianity was wrong. We’re not talking about one or two local churches losing its lampstand, because the Protestants weren’t protesting what one or two churches allegedly got wrong. We’re not talking about an ebbing and flowing cycle, because the Protestants were protesting the doctrines that were held everywhere and in every church at the time. For Protestantism or Mormonism to be correct, there must have been a total apostasy, a total departure of the Holy Spirit from the Body of Christ.
[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]
God wills for EVERYONE to come to knowledge of the truth and be saved. There is no way for anyone to come to knowledge of the truth if the whole Church has apostatized. If God is indeed God then He is almighty and more than capable of preventing a total apostasy. Why then would He walk out on His Church and let everyone unfortunate enough to live during the “total apostasy” go to hell (or be denied the celestial kingdom as Mormons claim) for no other reason that simply being unfortunate enough to be born in that time period?
In other words… Is God Love or is He not?
I believe that God is Love and that is why I am a Roman Catholic.
(The above is a revise of this post.)
From 33 AD to 1005 AD, that is from Calvary until the Great Schism, 100% of Christianity was capital-C Catholic (99%) or Oriental Orthodox (1%). From the Schism to the Reformation–another 500 years–100% of Christianity was either part of the aforesaid communions or the Eastern Orthodox. There are no other Christians until the 1500s AD.
ALL non-Catholic and non-Orthodox churches reject the authority of both the Catholic and Orthodox churches and all of their Tradition, as do the Mormons.
So the only way you can argue the Reformers or anyone who came after them (e.g. Joseph Smith) were right, is to declare that 100% of Christianity was wrong. We’re not talking about one or two local churches losing its lampstand, because the Protestants weren’t protesting what one or two churches allegedly got wrong. We’re not talking about an ebbing and flowing cycle, because the Protestants were protesting the doctrines that were held everywhere and in every church at the time. For Protestantism or Mormonism to be correct, there must have been a total apostasy, a total departure of the Holy Spirit from the Body of Christ.
[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]
God wills for EVERYONE to come to knowledge of the truth and be saved. There is no way for anyone to come to knowledge of the truth if the whole Church has apostatized. If God is indeed God then He is almighty and more than capable of preventing a total apostasy. Why then would He walk out on His Church and let everyone unfortunate enough to live during the “total apostasy” go to hell (or be denied the celestial kingdom as Mormons claim) for no other reason that simply being unfortunate enough to be born in that time period?
In other words… Is God Love or is He not?
I believe that God is Love and that is why I am a Roman Catholic.
(The above is a revise of this post.)
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BigFellaMick
Guest
archive.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0305fea4.asp thats a good start! Speak always with charity but don’t sacrifice sharing the Truth in order to protect their feelings. Be firm but keep charity in mind.
If they accuse you for believing false things, here is a Catholic cheat sheet I found online with Scriptural evidence supporting everything we Catholics were taught and hold dear
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/WALLET.HTM
I wish you luck and God Bless!
If they accuse you for believing false things, here is a Catholic cheat sheet I found online with Scriptural evidence supporting everything we Catholics were taught and hold dear
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/WALLET.HTM
I wish you luck and God Bless!
po18guy
Well-known member
Bottom line is that the LDS stands entirely on the claims of one man. Period. We know that God sent numerous prophets over numerous centuries - culminating with His own Son, the “Alpha and the Omega”. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega of all Prophets. By definition, all other prophets are false. Notice that the post-Christ prophets, whether they have been named Mohammad, Smith or Russell, have changed the revealed nature of God - denying the divinity of Christ. True prophets have never done this.
Check the LDS threads and you will see some converts to Catholicism. PM them and I am sure that you will receive very good information.
Do you have a copy of the Essential Catholic Survival Guide? Great book to help you deal with the LDS, JWs and others.
Check the LDS threads and you will see some converts to Catholicism. PM them and I am sure that you will receive very good information.
Do you have a copy of the Essential Catholic Survival Guide? Great book to help you deal with the LDS, JWs and others.
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Jaypeeto4
Guest
Also, there are only a few possibilities to explain a Catholic’s converting to Mormonism:
A week or so ago, because she is suffering from long-term excruciating back pain,
I gave her a little bottle of water from LOURDES.
She had previously explained to me that she had been “raised Catholic.”
But when I gave her the Lourdes water, she had never heard of Lourdes.
So I reminded her about Saint Bernadette being visited by Mary there.
She had never, ever heard of Saint Bernadette.
And yet, was “raised Catholic.”
I’m sorry, but nobody who has truly been “raised Catholic,” in the sense
of being duly and properly taught and catechized, has “never heard of” Lourdes or
never heard of Saint Bernadette. It is next to absolutely impossible.
Same with these “raised Catholic” converts to Mormonism.
Nearly all of them, if not actually all of them, were very, very, very POORLY catechized if they were ever catechized at all.
It is impossible for a well-catechized, prayerful, fully informed HONEST Catholic
to fall for the claims of ANY of the non-Catholic religions (not just Mormonism), especially their claims of a very early “Great Apostasy” in the church as soon as the apostles had died. ** This did not happen**, and all historical research - honest research - proves it beyond all possibility of honest debate.
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
- He or she is extremely wicked. This is not very likely, not at all.
The Mormons are, morally speaking, quite conservative, so it’s not likely
that a wicked person would WANT to join a morally-conservative religion. - Very forgetful of the teachings of the Church. This is possible
and also can be present in an otherwise very good person.
or, more likely, - The “Catholic” was a nominal Catholic, very poorly-catechized,
if he or she was ever catechized at all, and has no real knowledge of
the Catholic faith. Maybe baptized as a baby and received first communion
but that’s basically it. This happens, unfortunately, a LOT.
A week or so ago, because she is suffering from long-term excruciating back pain,
I gave her a little bottle of water from LOURDES.
She had previously explained to me that she had been “raised Catholic.”
But when I gave her the Lourdes water, she had never heard of Lourdes.
So I reminded her about Saint Bernadette being visited by Mary there.
She had never, ever heard of Saint Bernadette.
And yet, was “raised Catholic.”
I’m sorry, but nobody who has truly been “raised Catholic,” in the sense
of being duly and properly taught and catechized, has “never heard of” Lourdes or
never heard of Saint Bernadette. It is next to absolutely impossible.
Same with these “raised Catholic” converts to Mormonism.
Nearly all of them, if not actually all of them, were very, very, very POORLY catechized if they were ever catechized at all.
It is impossible for a well-catechized, prayerful, fully informed HONEST Catholic
to fall for the claims of ANY of the non-Catholic religions (not just Mormonism), especially their claims of a very early “Great Apostasy” in the church as soon as the apostles had died. ** This did not happen**, and all historical research - honest research - proves it beyond all possibility of honest debate.
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
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runningdude
Guest
The thing about the Mormon faith is that these members honestly believe that their church is the correct church. They believe in a continuing revelation, that will smooth over any irregularities.
When speaking to a Mormon about the Catholic Faith, one must humbly realize that words alone will NOT convert the Mormon. Remember our words of our Lord in response to Saint Peter:
When you speak to these missionaries, you have to hold back a bit and remember that it will not be your words or actions that convert the missionaries, but God alone. We are called to preach the Gospels, but it is God that gives ours words meaning.
On the same theme of God revealing Himself to the missionaries, invite them to visit before the Tabernacle in a Catholic Church. This is a long shot that they would accept the offer, but Christ has revealed himself through the Eucharist, as can be seen in Luke.
We Catholics alone follow the true faith established by our Lord. All historical and logical evidence points this way, so we need to share every aspect of our faith - nothing is secret within the true faith!
Human fallibility distorts this logic pointing to our church, and only deep humility will impress the missionaries.
The missionaries are in the business of building logical arguments in support of their illogical faith. They will see through any shallow tricks or attempts to embarrass them into converting. Appealing to the historical to disprove their faith will fall flat, as they will assume Satan influenced recorded events to embarrass the LDS church.
In summary, a Catholic must step aside, and speak about the truth in one’s own faith, rather than disparage the faith of the missionaries. One must pray before the Eucharist, whether the missionaries visit or not, for their conversion. One must pray that the Holy Spirit light their hearts afire!
When speaking to a Mormon about the Catholic Faith, one must humbly realize that words alone will NOT convert the Mormon. Remember our words of our Lord in response to Saint Peter:
What this says is that one can only come to know the true faith through direct intervention of the Holy Spirit.
When you speak to these missionaries, you have to hold back a bit and remember that it will not be your words or actions that convert the missionaries, but God alone. We are called to preach the Gospels, but it is God that gives ours words meaning.
On the same theme of God revealing Himself to the missionaries, invite them to visit before the Tabernacle in a Catholic Church. This is a long shot that they would accept the offer, but Christ has revealed himself through the Eucharist, as can be seen in Luke.
Christ’s apostles knew not who they were hosting, but this strangers words rang true in their hearts, and it was the glorious sacrament of the Eucharist that finally revealed our Lord’s resurrection to them.
We Catholics alone follow the true faith established by our Lord. All historical and logical evidence points this way, so we need to share every aspect of our faith - nothing is secret within the true faith!
Human fallibility distorts this logic pointing to our church, and only deep humility will impress the missionaries.
The missionaries are in the business of building logical arguments in support of their illogical faith. They will see through any shallow tricks or attempts to embarrass them into converting. Appealing to the historical to disprove their faith will fall flat, as they will assume Satan influenced recorded events to embarrass the LDS church.
In summary, a Catholic must step aside, and speak about the truth in one’s own faith, rather than disparage the faith of the missionaries. One must pray before the Eucharist, whether the missionaries visit or not, for their conversion. One must pray that the Holy Spirit light their hearts afire!
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
thank you for that link
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Mudboots
Guest
The baseline is that, according to what a Mormon told me, an angel came and delivered a new gospel to Mr. Smith.
The Bible, I think in Galations, specifically states that no new gospel shall be accepted, even if it comes from an angel.
That pretty much nullifies the validity of this specific religion. Then you can focus on being an evangelist for Christ by offering the truths of the faith…gently…
The Bible, I think in Galations, specifically states that no new gospel shall be accepted, even if it comes from an angel.
That pretty much nullifies the validity of this specific religion. Then you can focus on being an evangelist for Christ by offering the truths of the faith…gently…
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Mudboots
Guest
…found it at www.drbo.org, the Douay-Rheims online…
Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Galatians
Chapter 1
(He blames the Galatians for suffering themselves to be imposed upon by new teachers.)
…[6] I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. [7] Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.
Pax vobiscum,
Mudboots
Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Galatians
Chapter 1
(He blames the Galatians for suffering themselves to be imposed upon by new teachers.)
…[6] I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. [7] Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.
Pax vobiscum,
Mudboots
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wmscott
Guest
Also 2 Corinthians 11: 13-14 For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light.
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brgregmack
Guest
… I just gave them a call and left a message clarifying my intent for the dialogue. Keep the strategies coming if they still want to come over anyway.
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thistle
Guest
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/morm.htmOn Monday, I will be dialoguing with a couple Mormons, one of whom is a former Catholic. I need some strategy help on how to bypass their memorized speech and get them thinking.
Thanks
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/mormons.htm
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/mormns.html
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/anmormon.htm
comparing-views.com/
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brgregmack
Guest
Used historical errors… reply “that’s wrong, check more sources, all of those can be found”
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